John: We were watching Jurassic Park: Lost World or whatever, the volcano blows up, and everyone gets on the boat. Cry, you're just talking about it, and the Brachiosaurus is left behind on a flaming island. It's so sad watching him die. First of all, it's a CGI image; it's not even close to real, right? And like, dinosaurs went extinct from a meteor. All day, dinosaurs die from a meteor. Then I look over at Nicole, and she's crying. My first instinct was to explain it and be like, "Are you crazy? Are you seriously crying about this? Know all the things." But that was my first instinct, and then I realized that it's not crazy; it's beautiful.

Nicole: [Music] Beyond through our flaws, we complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault; we find our way. Welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other become better equals one better than perfect relationship. I lost it at the end.

John: Yeah, good job. So welcome back. Yeah, we were just talking about dreams, but we won't get too into that.

Nicole: No, we cannot go into that topic. That's too much, a different episode. It's a different podcast, not anything to do with relationships whatsoever. But it's okay.

John: But yeah, but we did have, uh, we have been stressed out this morning working on the actually because we're time traveling because the first episode is coming out today for us of this podcast. So go back in time and watch it.

Nicole: Yeah, do a little time traveling. So now the episodes will be coming out on a weekly basis.

John: This is officially our launch, even though this is the sixth episode for you. So it's very Inception of us.

Nicole: Now, but uh, yeah. Okay, so it's my week to pick the topic.

John: So my topic is how to handle conflict in a relationship. And I, you know, it's supposed to be a controversial kind of topic, but that's just it. It's controversial, not it's already conflict itself. I think as long as it's realistic, like everybody deals with that. We deal with it, obviously. We'll dive more into that, but yeah, like it's very beneficial.

Nicole: Yeah, so it doesn't always have to be like us coming for each other's necks, but you know, that makes for a fun video.

John: We don't come for each other's neck. We just present different perspectives on things, which is good.

Nicole: All right, well, what's your perspective on conflict on how to handle conflict?

John: Okay, yeah. So, I mean, my thoughts around it were around just, you know, especially some of the things that I've learned recently that are relearned, I would say, because it's easy to forget things that you have figured out and to get sucked into conflict. So I guess my thing on it would be what causes the conflict, how to avoid having the conflicts or having them go bad, and then really, I think, the perspective from both the male and the female. Men and women, you know, what as a man can you do to have better conflicts, higher quality conflicts that are constructive because conflict isn't bad by itself. And then the same that you could present your side of what is it as a woman. And there's some commonality too, right? Things that both people can do always to better communicate. And I guess we don't really have to go over the standard four horsemen of, you know, can you remember all four precisely? Because I mean, I know one of them.

Nicole: Right, one is criticism.

John: I thought it was defensiveness.

Nicole: I think that's one of them. But we'll just talk about it from our perspective, even though those are, everyone talks about the Four Horsemen.

John: So, I mean, what do you think about...

Nicole: Well, normally you're supposed to start with your perspective, but if you want me to start. I mean, conflict is a very broad topic. So I know that you kind of laid out how you want to talk about it. The first thing you said was like, what causes it. Well, I think it's obvious that like hurt causes the conflict, and like, because that's where all issues start, right? Like even if somebody's like, "Hey, you did this, and it made me feel this way," like that's still, they got hurt somehow. So I think it all stems from feelings. Someone got hurt, or they're feeling a certain type of way about something, but normally it's like hurt or upset or what those sort of group of emotions. And what's really hard is that when you're feeling those emotions, it can kind of overpower your logical thinking brain in that moment, right? Because I know a thing that us women tend to do when we're hurt is sometimes lash out at the same time verbally or, you know, whatever, and we allow our emotions to kind of take over, and we're not really responsible for what we do when we're upset, which I don't think is okay. And I'll talk more about that at the end. But you know, typically where I think conflict goes awry is that those hurt feelings take over everything, and they become this destructive thing. Like now you're hurt by what somebody did, so you're going to hurt them, or you're going to show them how hurt you are, or you're going to get revenge, you know? And those, and then obviously the other person is going to be hurt and want the same things. So it's like that typically is where a lot of people end up having crazy, full-blown, like hour-long intense fighting conversations. Like, yeah, I'm not saying that we have it to that level, but a lot of people have it to that level, and it's very normal, you know. And they almost normalize it because I mean, we've even had talks, you know, with our daughter where sometimes she'll be like, "Well, I was upset, so I didn't mean it." It's like, right, which we're trying to teach her, like, even though you're upset, even if you're angry, even if you're hurt, you don't lash out on people, or you have to still handle it a certain way. And so, you know, I think that's very important, especially for women, because like I said, we do typically go more towards like, you know, "Oh, you hurt me; it's on from there." But I think that's not the right way to handle it, and even if you try to be really careful about what you say, you might still say something that hurts somebody. So I think it's important to look at it in a way that we've talked about, which I don't want to steal your whole thing here, but when you look at it from a place of being vulnerable, which I think when you're looking at it more from being vulnerable, it makes you come from a place where you're not attacking. You're like, I don't want to say helpless, but you're kind of like a little...

John: Like you know, you're putting your heart into the other person's hands, right? And trusting that they'll deal appropriately. You're not trying to guard yourself from it. You're fully open. It can be scary, but you're coming from this place of love and true emotion, and not allowing the anger or the part that wants violence to overtake. Or the part that wants to guard yourself, so you're on high alert, thinking, "I must protect my heart at all costs." What you and I have talked about is protecting the other person's heart and looking out for them, which will lead to more constructive criticism type of conversations and not allow there to be that sort of combativeness that a lot of conflicts turn into.

Nicole: Yeah, so, I feel like I'm taking this whole thing over. I mean, that's a good sum. And I would say, on that point, the thing that initially starts the conflict is some kind of miscommunication. It is a hurt. Right, I guess that's what we could say. It's a hurt in some way. And I think that the more close you are with a person, the more the hurt is, even slight things because when you feel like you're side by side and this person really gets me, they understand everything about me, and I understand them, and we're still close, then any degree of separation feels like a huge harm because you're like, "My reality is shattered now. This person doesn't get me as much as I thought," or "They must be doing it on purpose because we know each other well." And your partner's supposed to be the closest person to you, so obviously, when there's miscommunication or hurt somehow, your brain automatically wants to be like, "But how could this person do this to me?" Or like, "I thought I knew them." Your brain can spiral, and that's where you end up going down that bad road.

John: Right, whereas if you don't come at it from that perspective, like we've talked about where you're like, "I know who this person is. I know they wouldn't hurt me. This is just obviously something that we need to talk about and work through in a positive way." I mean, as positive as you can. There's still going to be some sort of emotion because, like I said, there's usually hurt attached to it somehow. But if you come at it with love as the core attribute and you know who that person is rather than feeling betrayed, because when you feel betrayed, then you can spiral and come up with all these other problems. Then you start throwing those in there, and now you're talking about a whole bunch of other stuff, which I have done. I'm not perfect.

Nicole: And that's what I was going to say. You come in initially with some kind of hurt, right, for whatever reason. And then it either goes one of two ways: either you interpret that hurt as you come to the person and say, "You've hurt me," or you're angry because hurt goes one of those two ways. It's like if you choose the path to be, "You hurt me, and now I am upset at you for hurting me," that's the protecting your own heart pathway. Versus, "You hurt me, and now I'm going to be vulnerable about that hurt and give you my heart even further, trusting that you're going to do the right thing." And it's hard. I think most of the time, we want to do the thing that we know we can take care of ourselves. So if we do this one, you know, you have control over that situation. But if you do the other one and say, "Okay, well, here it is," and the risk is that the person may not react in the right way. In addition, it creates a double hurt.

John: But yeah, that's, I think, where the start of conflict comes from. And then that choice, do you feel betrayed, or do you just feel hurt? And can you express that? And if you trust that your partner is going to take care of that and understand that, and you don't need to try and make them do something in response to it, then it's not going to escalate to that point. But then, what about the issue of how men and women handle it differently, or what men's complaints are about women and women's complaints about men in conflict? I think that might make sense.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, what happened in my brain when you were just describing it is that I think everyone has something in their childhood that caused them some sort of trauma. And so, I do believe that. And I think when we get old enough, we're out on our own, we maybe had to figure it out on our own when we were even still young. So, I feel like everyone defaults to protect yourself because at some point, you are the only one that can do it. And you learn that. So, I feel like it can be hard, and some people never learn it. Let's be real, some people have conflicts all the time the way that we're talking about, where it escalates, and it's messy, but they never learn to be vulnerable and to look out for someone else's heart over their own because it is hard. It is hard to unlearn that thing. And it's also like, you know, the reality of it. This person could still leave; this person could do this. So, there is still that knowledge that probably makes people hold on to wanting to protect themselves because that's all they can control, and that's all they feel like they can do. But I do agree that this is the only way really to not have explosive conflicts and actually get to the root of problems and actually work through them and not really have to deal with them very much after you've had a helpful and healing conversation.

John: So, yeah, that just popped into my head when you were talking about it because it kind of, I think it's important to maybe theorize where it comes from. This is something that I feel like every single person I know has had a conflict that has been blown out of proportion at some point. And you can't always say the right thing; sometimes it still goes a certain type of way because you can't know what the right thing is because you don't know what someone's trauma is. So, something that might be innocent to you that's even meant in a good way.

John: You might come across so you can't rely on, and you also at the same time can't expect your partner to say things the right way because they're not a. I think you can expect if you've had a conversation where like you don't talk bad about the other person or like call names or yell, like you can establish those things. But like you said, there are still things that someone's going to be triggered by or offended by that you might not necessarily be because of their own past, their own trauma, like what they've been through. And like, you know, obviously, we all need to work towards healing those things, but you know, we're all human, so.

Nicole: Right, things are going to happen. But yeah, I think just when you were explaining it, I think it's important before we got into the other parts to kind of look at it from that perspective because I don't think like, I think it's just our learned behavior that we learned growing up. And that when you get in a relationship and you get married, that you have, especially when you're married, you have to trust your decision that you made, right? Because you should be taking time to make the right decision, you know, or like thinking about it enough to feel like I could put my entire life in your hands and trust that you're going to take care of me, right? But I think when we're upset and we're hurt, we're like, and especially if it's by that person, we're like, how am I going to give my heart to this person that hurt it, right? So yeah, it's a hard thing, you know. But I think that's why, like remembering who you actually married or who you're actually in a relationship with, and who they are to their core and the things that they show you by what they say and what they do is very important to remember in those moments because it's very easy to allow your emotions and your hurt and whatever to override that and be like, okay, well now I'm coming at him because he hurt me, right? So like, now I got to defend myself from him, right? And that, and that's, I mean, that's the key thing that causes the conflict to escalate, is the defense is defense, and it's, and if look at it because when we've had discussions, right, you've said being defensive, that's the thing that I need to stop doing. And then, right, then it's like, but even the act of saying stop being defensive is kind of defensive, you know what I mean? It's like because both of those, and what it comes down to is the motive of trying to protect yourself, right? As opposed to trying to love the other person, which again, it's like I said, I am just as guilty of it as anyone is because that's our default.

John: Like, it's we were just having the conversation with Sophia, you know, the other night, and I was telling her about how like, well, you know, this girl at school, if she says something, you know, she says you're helpless, or she said something like that, then just don't fight it. There's no need. Like, that's just her, what she thinks, and there's no need to fight against that or to defend yourself. Just let it be what it is. Or if she points out a mistake that you made and she says it in the wrong way, then just acknowledge. Just say you're correct, I did make that mistake. You don't have to. It doesn't matter that she has this opinion or that she's expressing things in the wrong way. It's when you become, I think our ego wants us to prove ourselves right. That's really what it is, then at that point because you know why, like you said, why would you even say anything? Like, it doesn't really matter, but to your ego, it does, right? And so you're like, no, I need to tell this person this is who I actually am because they have the wrong idea of me. But in reality, like, you could talk till you're blue in the face, and a person could be committed to misunderstanding you, right? And that is also where conflict can get stretched out because you do end up being committed to your point of view. You get committed to being your point of view, and then nobody's really budging. You're talking in circles because it's the same thing over and over and over because you're just worried about defending your point of view in yourself, and then you're just worried about defending your point of view in yourself. So nothing is actually like, it's not working together. And that's why I think a lot of psychologists or whatever would say, you know, work as a team to fight against the issue. And like, that is true, and it can be, but it can be hard. But I think when you look at it where if you're being defensive and the other person's being defensive, you're not working together as a team. Now you're battling against each other rather than being on the same side and, you know, coming from a place of love and understanding and like trying to stay connected amongst that because that's also hard to do. And especially like if you grew up and you didn't have that, you know, again, that's something you have to learn how to stay connected when there is disagreement or conflict because a lot of people don't have that as their automatic response. And what I was going to say about that is like if you think about like what are you really trying to do in a conflict? You're trying to be understood, right? And that's why the defensiveness is such a slap in the face is because it's sort of, but that's why it's also there, right? Yeah, because you're trying to express where you're coming from, but it's defensiveness, right? Like, you're trying to be understood, understood, yeah, on both in that moment too. So what's really got to happen is that the one person who, let's say that they're bringing up a harm or something, that person has to be met with zero defensiveness so that they can just be understood, even if they're doing it in the wrong way and they're expressing their emotions. You know, there's a degree to it, obviously, you shouldn't be calling people names and doing stuff, but if you say things in a way because you feel emotional about the thing and you're expressing it without that person being defensive so that they can just understand you. And then once that understanding has happened, and it's like, okay, I empathize with what you're saying, and not even, you shouldn't have said it like that, just forget about that for a minute and say, okay, I get what you're saying. I understand that. I understand you feel that way. I understand you, you know, not at all trying to explain why, just taking it all in and just letting that person have their minute to feel understood, right? And then the tables turn, and now instead of defensive, now it's like, by the way, also, I didn't intend to hurt you. Here's how I feel, and here's what I. And then if they, again, the same courtesy is exercised, then you both end up being understood because the conflict is happening when this person is like, I need to be understood, and this person's like, no, you don't understand me. And it's like, no, I need to be.

John: Understood. It's like, "No, clearly now you don't understand me," and you're going back and forth. All you're trying to do is to get the other person to understand you. It's like, "I'm not trying to harm you," but you harm them by trying to tell them about how much you're not trying to harm them. And you know, again, this is a familiar cycle because it's where I'm at when I'm in a conflict. I'm like, "I'm just trying to, just if you could understand what I'm saying, then you would see that I don't mean harm." Where everyone's coming from, exactly. That's where everyone's coming from. But they also say what you just said too, is that one person should talk and the other person should listen, and then once it's totally done, then the other person can talk and the other person listens, which we don't do all the time either. So, like, we're not perfect, right? But we do fall into a lot of the same things that we've talked about, but we do actively try to do it in a healthy way.

Nicole: But it's still, you know, we fall into it, and we learn from it, you know? Yeah, we still make mistakes, but the listening is important because it's not just... A lot of times, people interpret that and they're like, "Okay, I'm going to listen to this person for a minute," and they're just waiting with their defense, or they're waiting for their like, "Oh, oh, oh, I can't believe you said... Okay, go ahead." It's like you're making... It's like, "That's not listening." Listening, in that context, means understanding and empathizing, right? Putting in their shoes, exactly. Not trying to figure out, "How do what does this mean to you?" Which a lot of times, I think the problem is too, is that, and especially I can say from the male perspective, is that when a woman is telling you how she feels, I mean, it doesn't have to be a woman, but it's quite painful. Don't try to make it painful. It just, because it doesn't even... That speak being tried, that someone's trying to make it painful, it's just that you're recognizing just all these things that are being interpreted in a way that you didn't intend them to be. Which again, it's like, "Oh man, that's like, it feels like you don't really get me, you don't understand me if you think those things." But that's just how the person feels because, at the same time as you're thinking that, you're also doing the same thing by taking offense by those things, right? It's like, you know, it's the same thing for each person. Like, a woman's going to be upset about certain things that a man wouldn't, and a man's going to be upset by certain things that a woman probably wouldn't. So let's talk about those things. I think that's good.

John: So, what are the things that upset women, or upset you, as a woman, you think, or in general, that they would say?

Nicole: I mean, I can't speak for all women, but words. Okay, like you just talked about, that the words really shouldn't matter, but I do feel like that is what fuels the hurt inside of me. Like when I'm trying to be vulnerable, and like things are phrased in a way that like the "always" and the "nevers," right? Like, "You never do this." And so, that is of the Four Horsemen, what saying that, saying "always" and "never." Okay, well, and I'll tell you why someone can check it. I'll tell you why it bothers women. I'm not... I can't speak for all women, but I'll tell you why, because I have been reading this book, oh, okay, about optimism and like talking about depression in the book and stuff too, because they believe that pessimism is like related to depression in some sort of way, and women are more likely to be depressed. And in the book, they talk about how women really ruminate on things where men just, if they get upset, they just act. Like, they'll go and like go to the bar and drink, or they'll go play a basketball game, you know. They'll like, but women will sit and stew on those things, things, and they'll think about it, and they'll like, again too, if you add anxiety into the mix and worrying and things like that, now you're like taking this one little thing that like, "You never do this," and now you're like, "Well, I do this," and like, "So he doesn't notice this, so like does he not notice this, so does he do this?" So, I feel like that is where women can spiral and end up being upset about one thing and then throwing a bunch of other things in there because by the time that a man has even finished the sentence, she's already over here like 10 points down, you know? Because the second they come out of your mouth, she's like, "Oh, so he thinks this, so he probably thinks this too, and then he's thinking this." So, I feel like it's maybe not the biggest thing, but it's words do matter to women. I mean, like think about some of the instances where I've gotten hurt, right? Like with the vitamin thing. I'll bring up the vitamin thing because it's really not a big deal, but you know, I had these vitamins, and I take them, and then you were in there taking one one day, and I was like, "Why are you taking the gummy ones? You just drink the apple cider vinegar," and I like the gummies, yeah, and you were like, "Well, you're not eating them anyway." And I was like, when you said that, I was like, not like in the end of the world, but I was like, "Yeah, that's kind of harsh."

John: Well, even the way that you said it, it's not the way I said it, but that's the way you heard it, right? And then also, I'm like, "So does he not pay attention to me because he doesn't know I eat these every day?" And then I'm like, "So like, he just doesn't care?" Like, and then he can talk to me this way. Like, it's like coming, but like you said, it wasn't even really that way, but in my mind, those words, though, even though you said them totally normal, there was no sarcasm, no meanness to it.

Nicole: Yeah, the phrase sounded like that, and so my brain automatically put those tones onto this phrase, right? And so, like, that's what I'm trying. I'm just using this as an example because it's a great example. It wasn't even a huge deal, right? But the words did matter because from those words, like you said, you didn't have any sort of tone, right? But the phrase of it, right, in my mind, had a tone to it, whether you had it or not, right? And so then it spiraled into these other things, right.

John: Right, and then now I'm like, I've made, like, apple cider vinegar gummies into this huge thing, and it could be from a past trauma type of thing where I wouldn't even know that that would be a trigger phrase, or even maybe people had spoken to you sarcastically before and had belittled you or belittled your intelligence before, and that wasn't what I...

John: I was doing—I was just making an innocent statement, but it gets interpreted that way, right? But what actually—you know, I think it's great that you brought up that example because when I think about how do you handle that conflict, what makes sense in that case is because you could say, like, someone could make the argument and say, well, you know, you shouldn't take offense to something how it's being said because you know that your partner doesn't probably mean it that way. They're just expressing. In this case, it's not even expressing emotion, but the other thing about that I think, which is more universal, right, which applies, is the fact that look, when I said you're not even taking them anyway, you couldn't really control the emotional response that happened, like the physical response, and what you said afterwards, you're in control of, but you felt a way about that, and you didn't—it's not your fault that you felt that way. It's just, and whether it's ridiculous or not, it doesn't matter if it's ridiculous or not because it could be that, you know, you have a thing about corn, and someone says the word corn, and it just brings back memories of wiping your butt with corn, what corn cobs. You know, the corn—remember when we looked up that people used to wipe their butts with corn cobs? This is a thing; it's a weird look it up; it's weird. But it's whatever you have some kind of trauma behind that, like you can't control that that brings up a trauma to you, right? And I couldn't know it necessarily.

Nicole: So, what it comes down to then is this idea that what has to happen is that the empathy has to be there. So even if I meant it completely innocent, and I did, and you know I did now, right?

John: Yeah, I could get upset at you, and I could say, hey, look, why are you getting upset about this thing that's not a big deal? Do you think that I'm a bad guy, that I would mean this bad? I think in that moment, you did respond.

Nicole: I did respond like that. I messed up; let's be clear.

John: Okay, no, I'm not trying to say that, but I'm just trying to say like what you're talking about actually did happen in that instance.

Nicole: It did.

John: It did because that's the thought; that's a defensive, right? Because it's like, hey, I didn't even do anything wrong at all. And it's like it was an extreme defensive on my part because I was like, like if you—if you say something to someone, if you express a hurt, and they misinterpret it, and then you're defensive about it because it's like, okay, that's a reasonable misinterpretation, right? Because or they're offended by the thing, and then you could be defensive. But I said something in my mind that was totally innocent. I wasn't even—we weren't even in a conflict. I wasn't even upset at you; you weren't upset at me, and then all of a sudden, you're upset about this thing. So, so that—so I was like, okay, well, let me defend myself. Let me say what I actually meant, and I was even just trying to say, hey, it's just innocent. I didn't mean anything about it. But where I'm getting—you're going to like where I'm getting to. So I know it's a little—think you will just looking at the look on your face. But the point is what I'm saying is that your response to that was an involuntary response of hurt, whether I meant it or not, whether it's absolutely ridiculous like wiping your butt with corn or not. You just want to throw that in there as many times.

Nicole: So, the proper response from me, which I didn't do in that case, is just to be empathetic about it. It's like, hey, and especially as a man, okay, because this advice applies more to men than to women, is that women are going to be emotional about a lot of stuff. We're emotional a lot about stuff that doesn't make any sense, and it's not personal to you. She could literally just be, uh, that time of the month and going through very high estrogen, low estrogen levels, and she'll cry at a Hallmark commercial or some kind of thing. I mean, that could happen at any time, at any time, but something very small could. So, there's a lot, man, it's small, but you know, with being more like emotional, like we are more sensitive to those types of things, like to anything really. So, it's like that's part of being emotional, like being emotional is sensitive.

John: Right, exactly.

Nicole: So, like the gummy thing, like I was more sensitive to the thing that you said, right? Just because I—I mean, like you said, it could have been some trigger thing, and it probably is to some degree, but also, I'm just like more sensitive. I'm more emotional, and I wanted to tell you how I felt about it, and there's nothing wrong with that. And that's the thing, is it's—but I think men often too, like, can't—they want to logical their way out of it because look, if I do something, if I said to you, oh, you, uh, the gummies, uh, you're lazy, you don't even eat gummies, or you don't care about your health, you know, something like that, something mean, and then you're upset, then I'm like, okay, well, it makes sense, right? But if I don't do anything wrong at all, and this is where I always trip up, as like, I didn't do anything wrong, so therefore, you shouldn't react this way, right? And so, it's like trying to control the reaction. It's like it doesn't matter. As a man, you have to realize that it doesn't matter why she's upset. It does matter how that upset is expressed, but all you're looking for in that case is empathy. Like, I could have ended that discussion just by saying, oh, wow, I'm sorry that I came across that way. I'm sorry that I made you feel that way or, oh, wow, tell me more about how that made you feel when I said that. Oh, okay, oh, that you felt like that because of that. Oh, wow, I understand. I wouldn't want to feel like that. I wouldn't want to make you feel like that. No defensiveness, no explanation for why I did it, or I didn't mean it. The default for is to say, oh, I didn't mean to do that. I didn't, which it's such a subtle difference between saying, oh, wow, I'm sorry that you feel that way. I'm sorry I made you feel that way. I'm sorry even that I said something that caused you to feel that way, or I empathize with your emotion, as opposed to, I didn't mean to do that. That's not what I'm trying to do. It's like, I didn't do anything wrong. Well, I can't remember the guy's name, but um, he explained this really well. I think I saw him on TikTok. He says that guys typically take it really personally, right? Like, which, okay, don't get me wrong, anybody's going to take things personally with criticism, like women, man, doesn't matter, right? But typically, where men kind of go down the wrong path is like a woman will be like, hey, the way you told me, uh, you don't really eat those anyway with, and uh, I had the apple cider gummies.

John: It's like, when I say something that hurts her feelings, she takes it personally. She thinks I hate her or that I'm picking on her. Then she accuses me of picking on her, and I go into defensive mode to protect myself. What he said in the TikTok is exactly what you mentioned. You have to realize it doesn't matter because it's not always going to be logical. Women are not trying to blame you when they come to you hurt; they're trying to reconnect with you. They need more love when they're upset. Sure, some women might try to tear a man down, usually because they've felt unloved for a long time. But generally, women want reconnection. A simple apology and a hug can do so much. Obviously, bigger issues require more discussion.

Nicole: Like the incident with the apple cider vinegar gummies. Or when we were at a winery, and I got upset because you couldn't close your eyes for 5 seconds to kiss me. You felt it was offensive and wondered if I didn't know who you were or appreciate all you do for me. You thought I was picking on a small thing without any bad intent. But it's not about that. It's about wanting all your attention in that moment. It's not that she doesn't know who you are. Remembering that she's just trying to connect with you can be beneficial.

John: Right, and developing healthier habits for dealing with conflict is what we're talking about. In any situation where someone is hurt, it doesn't matter why they're hurt. We get hurt for all kinds of reasons, and it's more about ourselves than the other person. We allow ourselves to be hurt. The stoic viewpoint is that we take it personally, leading to defensiveness. But when someone's hurt, the other person needs to be empathetic, not question whether the hurt is justified.

Nicole: Exactly. Like with the gummy thing, you didn't mean any offense, but questioning if I was justified in being hurt led to dismissing my feelings. Instead, focus on the fact that I'm hurt. It doesn't matter why. If I tripped over my own feet, you wouldn't care why I was hurt, just that I was hurt. Yet, we often react by questioning the validity of the hurt, which is a mistake. It doesn't just apply to men; women can do the same, but men are more likely to question the logic of the situation.

John: It's also important for men to come from a vulnerable place when they're hurt because they don't always express their hurt in the most vulnerable way. A woman's true nature is nurturing and caring, making it easier for her to respond when a man is vulnerable.

John: Being stay in that mode when, like, some, like it's like when a little baby animal comes up to you and it's hurt, and you're like, "Oh, I'll take care of you." I'm not saying that a guy has to be like, "Help me," you know, but like if he's coming from a place of like, "Hey, when you said this, it hurt me," rather than just going straight into, "How could you do this to me? I can't believe you." And women can do that too, yeah, but so either way, both people need to come from the perspective of being vulnerable because it's also a lot easier for the person listening to have that automatic response of just caring what you're going through and being empathetic towards you. But even if you don't do it perfect, like you said, you do have to just listen to what the person's saying and not just try to defend yourself or protect or take it personally. Just be there in that moment, put yourself in their shoes, and see where they're coming from. But I do think it's important to mention that people should try to come from a place of vulnerability, and that means not saying things that are aggressive or anything like that when you are hurt. I know that is easy for people to do and get in that habit of doing, but you can rein it back in. But I would say, what do you think that women should do differently? I think it's very important for women to choose their words and to not yell and to not let their mind go from point A to point Z in like 5 seconds and bring all of that into the equation as well too. But is there anything that you would recommend that might help women talk to men in a way that doesn't cause the boxing gloves to come out?

Nicole: Yeah, that's a good question. As I've thought about this and reflected on this myself, I have to say though that it is more the man is supposed to be the leader, right? This is what I talk about a lot on this podcast. And so, yeah, there are things you could say that a woman could do differently, but the man should be showing, not telling, because like leading by example. Because women don't respond to criticism; they respond to encouragement. Men more so respond to criticism, not to say that you should necessarily criticize a man all the time, but I'm saying that a man is more likely to respond to criticism, and especially in a relationship, I would say, like, or with a friend or something like that, you know, if I criticize my friend and he's a man, he's going to get what I'm saying, and that's fine. Like, it's not going to be like that, but women respond more to praise. Even in the situation you're talking about, it is way more likely to follow a leader if they're leading by example. So, like, a woman is going to follow your lead if she can trust that you're always leading by example. And I'm not saying that you can't have mishaps and things like that. That happens, but almost 90% of the time, if I go back and I look at my history and I look at our history, and I'm like, whatever the thing was, if I would have just approached it with an empathetic, not trying to be understood but trying to understand, approach, it would have solved the problem very quickly. And you would have probably dealt with whatever I had to say in an appropriate way. I don't think that there's not ever, but whatever things that I think a woman needs to work on in a relationship are the conflict. It's best if the man leads by example, showing those things because it's also really hard for a woman. A man has more of the ability to do it. I'll tell you why because a man can be more analytical in the situation and is not as overtaken by his emotions, not to say that a woman couldn't learn some stoic principles, and it wouldn't serve her. Those are true, but a man generally has more of the ability to do it. And so if a man can do that and show empathy and validate a woman's emotions, most of the time, that solves the problem right there, and she's in a much more responsive place to then listen to what he has to say. And so that's why I would say that it's like, you know, yeah, women could focus on things, but they're probably not going to solve the problem. It's probably going to be the man solving the problem by doing the right thing. With that, we've talked about this too with your sister when she came to visit, that her and I both had the same profound moment in therapy, right? It was just someone saying, "I'm sorry you went through that," or "I'm sorry that happened to you." And so that's why when we were talking earlier, that if a woman comes to you and she's like, "Hey, this hurt me," if you're just like, "I'm so sorry," give her a big hug, most of the time, you just ended it. You know, she feels so much better. She's not spiraling on all these other things, right? And bringing that in, she feels like healed in a way from that hurt. Like, so a lot of times, it's not even that complicated. But and to go on what you said too, as a woman, it is harder to influence a man. It is. So, like, even if I was doing all the right things, it's not going to be looking at me like, "Oh, I should follow her lead," you know? Obviously, we have conversations, and we talk about things, and we work as a team, but you're not going to be looking like, "Oh, I should be like her," right? And not that a woman's like, "Oh, I should be like him," but if you're in a relationship where the guy's leading the relationship, right, he needs to be doing the right thing a majority of the time; otherwise, then you can create even more problems, like, you know, "Well, who's leading the ship right now?" Exactly. Yeah. And ultimately, it comes down to his responsibility. And so if there is one thing I would say to wrap it up about what women could do better in the conflict, I would say that it is just coming with hurt instead of anger. So if you come, most men, even if they are emotionally illiterate, if you come to a man and you're in a relationship with them, if he cares about you and you say, "Oh, I'm hurt," he's probably going to respond at least in a semi-decent way.

John: Well, that's kind of like I said with the baby wounded animal. Like, if anybody comes to you in that vulnerable state, your instinct is not to attack the wounded person, whether you're a man or a female. A man has to be a little bit more skillful if a woman comes to him and says, "Why did you do this? I'm really..."

John: Upset about this or I'm really hurt by this, that's not actually expressing, that's not actually really being vulnerable. Then he has to be skillful to dissect that and be like, "Oh, I didn't mean to make you feel that like." He has to not be defensive. He has to now, so it makes it a little bit easier for the man's job if the woman comes to him with a completely open heart like, "My heart's in your hands, do with it as you will," and trust that he will do the right thing. And sometimes he might not, but a majority of the time, he probably will in that case. Which brings me to the final closing point I was... I want to say one more thing, just a quick thing. I don't want to go too much into it, but I think it's really important for men not to try to get rid of women being emotional. Yes, like that say, yeah, but I needed to say that before we ended because men might be like, "Oh well, let me just take the emotion out, and then it'll be good. We can just be logical all the time." But yeah, don't, like, embrace, love that part of her. Like, I mean, and you guys can learn together to handle the conflicts in a better way, and you'll like that about her.

Nicole: I'll tell one quick story about that since it is so... well, we do need to do a whole episode on it. We were watching Jurassic Park, Lost World or whatever, it's a crappy movie, and there's this part at the end of the movie, or at the beginning of the movie, where they're leaving behind the island, the volcano blows up, and everyone gets on the boat. Cry, you're just talking about it, and the Brachiosaurus is left behind, and he's on a flaming island. Like, it's so sad watching him, and we're watching the movie, and I have no emotional response to this at all. I'm like, this is an anim... first of all, it's a CGI image, and second of all, it's a dinosaur. Like, you know, I don't care, dinosaur, it's not even real, it's not even close to real, right? Like, dinosaurs went extinct from a meteor. All day, dinosaurs die from a meteor. So, this is what I'm being like, it doesn't even phase me in the slightest bit, right? And I look over at Nicole, and she's crying. Yeah, and I'm, and at first, I was, my first instinct was to explain it and be like, "Are you crazy? This is... Are you seriously crying about this?" Know all the things that you just said, but that was my first instinct. And then I realized that no, this is beautiful. It's not, it's not crazy, it's beautiful. Why? Because I want a woman, especially a woman that is raising my daughter and taking care of her, to be that level of caring. It's a beautiful thing that women are emotional. It's not a... you know, as a man, I see a man doing that, I'm like, "Bro, like, what the hell, you know?" Because you got to be tough, you got to be, but you need both the masculine and the feminine. That's really what this podcast is about. And if you try as a man to make a woman like you because you think it's good for her because it's good for you, you're going to be missing the other side of it, and it's not what you want. Yeah, and you're not going to have very good sex either. So, you know, that's it, it's true.

John: Jesus, all right. But the last thing I was going to say was the summary of what you said at the beginning, which is the general rule is to look out for each other's heart, not your own. Because if I am 100% constantly in a conflict or otherwise just thinking, "How is Nicole feeling, and how am I making her feel, and how can I protect her heart?" and not trying to protect my own, and she's doing the same, then you're never going to have a problem. Because that's all you need to do, and that's the thing to keep your eye on the prize. That's it.

Nicole: So, our thing that we dealt with this week is basically what we just talked about. So, it's kind of hard to dive more into it, but I guess we can just talk about how everything we just mentioned, we were doing wrong. Like, and we fell into the loop of it for quite a bit of time, actually, and to the point where we were like, "Okay, this is like, we're doing it way wrong." Unfortunately, it took us to really realize that we were just going about it wrong. And it's not like we were screaming and calling each other names. Our version, Nico's version, is to spend six hours talking about, lally, like to just keep on going back and forth for six hours. So, that's our version of it. But I take responsibility because, like I said, that's... I learned a lot from the experience, and it was helpful also for me. Yeah, but there were some conversations that we had that I definitely... I did not do the right thing. Like, there was one where I did say things I didn't mean when I was upset with you. They were, and I don't normally do that, but that was like, that's when I knew I was like, "I'm like something is really off in me because that's not my automatic response." I don't... I wasn't even like trying to hurt you. I think I just was so overwhelmed with all the conversations that we had had that I was just acting out like a kid or something, you know? So, it's not okay to do it, and I felt so bad because, like, we talk about not doing it that way, and I had done the thing, you know? And we had also talked about things that I needed to work on, and you know, there's things that you need to work on. So, we've talked about those things. So, you know, we're not perfect. Like, that's why we started doing this because we're not perfect. Like, we make all the mistakes, but we really try to learn from them. And that's just where we're trying to be helpful to everybody else because, yeah, like, we are bringing you the things that we're learning the hard way. And sometimes you do have to learn things the hard way because that's what really sticks. But if you can give good advice that stems from actually making the mistakes and learning the lessons, yeah, then I feel like it is good to put those things out there to try to help somebody, you know, do the right thing from the beginning. And you know, even if you mess up, like, you'll figure it out.

John: Yeah, and I learned this week, like I said, like all a lot of the conflict of things that we went through, I learned that when I am hurt, my default tendency is to close into withdraw love, right? And I, but I did learn through this process, which again, something maybe I could remember how to do, which is to love through the pain and to not even focus on being hurt, to just look out for you, and to do that. And when I started doing that, then things got a lot better. Things resolved a lot easier.

John: That's true, yeah. Alright, I guess that's it for this, Ian. I guess for this one, we kind of talked about it already. So, alright, see you next week.

Nicole: Jinx, way.