John [00:00:00]: If you're a tightrope walker, but there's a big safety net underneath, I mean, you're going to still be trying hard because you don't want to fall. But if there's no safety net, you'll be trying really hard.

Nicole [00:00:09]: Right. There's no coming back.

John [00:00:10]: You're going to die. If you know the safety nets are bad, they make it so you're not putting as much in. Put it all in, put it all on the line, or don't do it at all.

Nicole [00:00:20]: Which I know people are going to be like, I already did that and I got burned. And it's like, okay, then don't take risk anymore. You can't want to get married. Then again, if you're not going to do it the way that it's supposed to be done.

John [00:00:30]: Beyond the perfect, we discover through our.

Nicole [00:00:34]: Flaws we complete each other.

John [00:00:37]: Better than perfect we stay through every.

Nicole [00:00:42]: Fault we find our way.

John [00:00:48]: All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:58]: That's right.

John [00:00:59]: Yeah. And what. What episode are we on now? We got a. It's like 50. Oh, is this 52?

Nicole [00:01:07]: I don't know.

John [00:01:08]: It might be 52.

Nicole [00:01:09]: I just posted 48.

John [00:01:10]: Yeah, 48. So 49. 50.

Nicole [00:01:14]: Or is it 51?

John [00:01:15]: It might be 51, I think, because at 52, we gotta say something about it. We'll have to check. I think next week will be. Next one will be 52, because 52 is what I wanted.

Nicole [00:01:24]: I thought we started in the beginning of December.

John [00:01:26]: We did, but we buffered a bunch of episodes.

Nicole [00:01:30]: Oh, yeah, you're right.

John [00:01:32]: So. So somehow, I don't know. I mean, we just published 48, so. Yeah, 49, 50, 51, 52.

Nicole [00:01:39]: So time isn't real.

John [00:01:43]: But yeah, 52 episodes. Yeah, but I mean, we'll talk about that next time because.

Nicole [00:01:48]: Because it'll be.

John [00:01:48]: Then it'll actually be a year.

Nicole [00:01:50]: Yeah.

John [00:01:51]: True. Hard to believe.

Nicole [00:01:52]: Yeah, that's. That's really hard to believe. But also at the same time, it feels long.

John [00:01:56]: Yeah, but it feels long.

Nicole [00:01:58]: But not if that makes sense. Yeah, well, yeah. Love is blind. Oh, yeah. We finally caught up and watched the weddings, but we're gonna be a little bit behind for the reunion.

John [00:02:12]: Yeah, but interesting.

Nicole [00:02:15]: They were dropping like flies, all those couples. Yeah, it is interesting. I mean, a lot of them people saw coming, but, man, we were talking about Tim and what's her name? Ashley.

John [00:02:31]: Okay.

Nicole [00:02:32]: Like how Tim was a good guy. He Was mad. Like she must have done something. Yeah.

John [00:02:37]: We'll have to look it up and see what. What.

Nicole [00:02:39]: Actually, maybe they'll talk about it on the reunion, but like, I don't think he was done.

John [00:02:43]: Yeah, he, he doesn't seem like the type of guy that's going to be on Tik Tok talking about it. But maybe.

Nicole [00:02:47]: No, but maybe like she has something or something. But I, maybe she didn't tell the whole like whole real story either. That's why like. Yeah, last year they were pretty good about like calling people out on stuff.

John [00:03:00]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:01]: At the reunion or was it a year or whenever the last reunion came out, they were pretty good about calling people out on the, you know, messed up stuff like, like that Trevor guy who like lied about the whole thing. But yeah, I'm interested to see what happened because he just looked real done like. And then she was like, you, you know, said all this stuff to my dad and like for him, I wanted to be like, that doesn't mean that, like you can just do whatever you want and he has to stay committed to you because he said the things to your dad like, yeah, you also have to be a partner worth being with.

John [00:03:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:03:38]: In order to uphold those things.

John [00:03:39]: But he should have been a little more sure, you know, before saying all that stuff to her dad because he, he had to have some level of doubt still at this point. I mean, maybe she did something that. But he already knew because he had already dealt with it before. So that's the thing is like, unless she did something that proved to him that he doesn't need to have any more doubts anymore.

Nicole [00:03:59]: Right.

John [00:03:59]: And I'm sure that he must had some kind of. Because he was like, there. I see no. What do you say? I see no circumstance or condition or.

Nicole [00:04:07]: Situation where I could marry you.

John [00:04:09]: Yeah. Where I would say yes at the. So that's like there's nothing, there's nothing you can do.

Nicole [00:04:15]: But that's true.

John [00:04:16]: But that's how. I mean, when you make up your mind, you got to make up your mind like that. So that's.

Nicole [00:04:21]: Yeah. No, I still think.

John [00:04:22]: No ambiguity.

Nicole [00:04:23]: He's done the right thing because obviously it had to be something that really bothered him. And instead of, you know, I'm sure they talked about it like it seemed like in the edit they didn't. He didn't really want to talk that much. But at the same time, based on how she was acting and him saying like, you know, you just left once the cameras went off and went to sleep.

John [00:04:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:04:47]: Like, I'M sure some things had been happening behind the scenes that.

John [00:04:51]: Yeah. You don't know who's performing for the camera, too. And.

Nicole [00:04:54]: Right.

John [00:04:54]: Because everyone's trying to look good on the camera. I mean, most of the people are trying to look good in the camera. And then.

Nicole [00:04:59]: Right.

John [00:05:00]: They're, you know, they could be lying to your face. And.

Nicole [00:05:04]: Yeah, I'm. But here's the thing, too. I am over these guys coming on the show.

John [00:05:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:05:11]: That have no business getting married. They didn't even want to get married. Like Ramses.

John [00:05:17]: No.

Nicole [00:05:17]: Granted, I know you have your own opinion about him and, like, some of the things that he said, and I agree with you. He's way too all over the place.

John [00:05:24]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:24]: But if you need more time because you were married before, right. It doesn't matter if it was Marissa or whoever. Why are you on the show?

John [00:05:34]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:05:34]: You know, you're gonna get married in, like, four weeks after meeting somebody.

John [00:05:38]: Oh. But think of it this way, right? So if someone's like, I'll give you $10 million if you pretend to be in love with someone and act like.

Nicole [00:05:48]: You'Re gonna marry them, you're not getting $10 million.

John [00:05:51]: No, I know, but I'm just using this as an example, Right. How many people will be able to do it? A lot of people. They'd be able to lie to this person's face, to pretend, like, say, I love you, all this stuff. Right. And. And do a good job of acting it. Right. I mean, get in some fights and then, like, it'd be hard to. But they would be able to do it. So I know they're not getting $10 million, but it might as well be to a lot of fame seekers. It's not even the money. It's the fame, Right. It's like, that's true. I'm going to be on tv. I'm going to, like, what's going to happen after this show? Like, I see the people with their Tik Toks and. And now they have 30,000 followers. But that's what. What it comes, you know, and then they can get brand deals, and it's like, all I got to do is lie for, you know, to my way.

Nicole [00:06:38]: Make you look bad. And I get that some people don't care about that, but is fame, quote, fame really worth it? And I agree with you, but because, to be honest, like, all of these shows.

John [00:06:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:06:52]: Are not even real anymore. Like, all of them, I'm sure when the Bachelor first came out and Love is Blind first came out, these other ones on the, like, first season.

John [00:07:02]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:03]: Were real. But now, because nobody really knew, right, that they would get so popular.

John [00:07:10]: Let me tell you this. Back in the day, 20 years ago, right, when I was an actor, okay, And I auditioned for reality shows back then, that was the primitive days of reality shows. They. It was just like any other audition that you got a call back on. It was.

Nicole [00:07:28]: It was not, be yourself and we'll pick you.

John [00:07:32]: No, they say, okay, this is the role we want you to play. Like, that's what they literally are like.

Nicole [00:07:38]: Okay, so is Nick playing the dumb guy role?

John [00:07:41]: Because, I mean. I mean, it might not be to that extreme, you know, but usually they're trying to cast someone. They already. So let me put this way. It's not necessarily that they're like, I want you to be an. An Irish immigrant. You know, it's like, you know, it's. It's that they have.

Nicole [00:07:56]: They want you be, like, the villain.

John [00:07:57]: They're like, we need a physicist, right? We got one. We want two physicists. That was not an accident. They. They purposely cast those people. They were looking for that role. We. We need a black guy that is. Is looks like he might be a gang banger. We need, like, this.

Nicole [00:08:13]: What?

John [00:08:14]: Right, like, that's. Yeah, the Tyler guy, right? It's like, you know, or what's the name of the other guy? I don't know. Anyway, my point is, like, that's. They're. They're picking specific. I. We want this kind of person. Right? That's how they cast reality TV shows. And then they find people that match up to that. And then if you're close, they ask you to play. Be a little bit more like this. Or can you. Can you act a little bit more like this? Can you be a little more bitchy? You know what I mean? That's what they do. So it is for a large part.

Nicole [00:08:46]: I mean, I know that, but it's also. I don't know, it's just because some people do seem genuine, right? It's usually too. And I'm not saying it's never the women, because there are some of the women. Like, we saw Micah and that other girl, Irina. Like, but most of the time it's guys pretending like, look at this season. How many guys pretended. Even Tyler. Like, I know they got married, but there's gonna be some stuff that they're gonna have to go through because he lied. And even if we don't know the full extent he did lie and whether he's telling the truth now, and they really Figured it out or if she's gonna find out at the, you know, reunion. There's some things there. But, like, all those guys had a problem besides Tim.

John [00:09:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:39]: Honestly, Stephen doing some crazy stuff on tv. Like what?

John [00:09:46]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:46]: Like, even if you're into all that stuff, like, can you not, like, not do it until you get off of tv? Like, that's. Yeah, but that's crazy.

John [00:09:55]: That might have been part of what. Again, you got to think of it this way, right? Like, look, these reality TV shows, right? It's a huge budget. It's a huge. It's a. Remember, like, this is a huge draw. It's a huge money maker for the studio.

Nicole [00:10:09]: Well, now they do.

John [00:10:10]: Well, they're not going to spend their. They have plots, they have drama. They're creating these things. They don't care about people falling in love, don't care about people getting married. They care about entertaining people and getting money. Right. Getting the eyes on it. Right. So whatever they need to do. Yeah. They're making it look like the show is about love, being blind and all this stuff and that these people are.

Nicole [00:10:35]: Real, but some of them are still married, like, from the beginning, granted.

John [00:10:39]: Yeah. And. And that. And I'm not saying that. That, that can't happen, but.

Nicole [00:10:43]: But it's like the.

John [00:10:44]: What I'm saying is that the producers of the show are not all about.

Nicole [00:10:48]: No, I'm not saying that I think it's innocent and.

John [00:10:52]: No, no, I'm just saying you don't know how much stuff is orchestrated.

Nicole [00:10:55]: Right. No, I get that part, too. But it's also, like, because they're not.

John [00:11:00]: Going to leave it to chance getting.

Nicole [00:11:02]: Annoying, though, how easily it is to tell who's there for real and who's not.

John [00:11:08]: Right.

Nicole [00:11:09]: And even if you're playing a character, like, you can still tell who genuinely wants to be married and, like, wants to find love versus the people who. Who aren't there for that.

John [00:11:21]: I mean, I would question if anyone's even there for real. For real. Real.

Nicole [00:11:24]: I mean, I agree with that. Just because at this point, you know, if you're going on Love is Blind, you're going to get somewhat famous. Like, people are going to know who you are now.

John [00:11:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:33]: So, like, there is a part of it where nobody has pure. Pure intentions.

John [00:11:39]: And casting directors are good. They're sniffing people out. They know what. They know what they want for the entertainment. They know what mix to put, you know.

Nicole [00:11:46]: Look, you're preaching to the choir. I went and auditioned for the Bachelor because they called me.

John [00:11:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:53]: So I was like, okay.

John [00:11:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:11:56]: And they just asked me the same questions over and over again. And I guess I was too. Like, they didn't ask me to play a character. I would have been like, no. But yeah, I guess I was too. I don't know, like, normal for them.

John [00:12:10]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:11]: So I don't know.

John [00:12:12]: I mean, maybe or whatever character that they're looking to fill that, you know, but they need it for the dramas. But, you know, it's. It's hard to say. It's hard to say what anything, you know, is anymore. Exactly. So.

Nicole [00:12:25]: But it did inspire.

John [00:12:27]: Yes.

Nicole [00:12:28]: Our topic for today, because when Marissa and Ramses were in that, like, hot tub boat, she was like, I would be unhappy in my marriage for five to seven years before I got a divorce.

John [00:12:43]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:43]: And you paused it and you asked me, and I was like, one year. And you were like, one year.

John [00:12:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:12:51]: And then we had this conversation. I thought it was a good conversation because each person's answer would probably be a little bit different. Right, Right. And so when we were talking about it honestly, a year was even a long time in our situation.

John [00:13:09]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:10]: And I told you, you know, like, if we were. If I was unhappy or you were unhappy, we would have a conversation long before that. And we're just the type of people that would figure that out. And even if, like, it's something we still had to work on and maybe we had hiccups, I don't feel like there would be a huge link of length of time where we would be.

John [00:13:33]: Unhappy because our relationship is such a huge part of our lives.

Nicole [00:13:37]: Right.

John [00:13:38]: That if it's not as big of a part of your life, you could potentially have other things in your life, and you could be unhappy in the relationship.

Nicole [00:13:48]: Right. And you would be okay.

John [00:13:50]: Yeah. But it. I. I agree with you. It would be very difficult for me to see us in a situation where one of us is unhappy and we're not addressing. Even for two months, because we would have to address it. Right. Maybe there's some circumstance where one of us has some kind of depression or something, and. And there's an unhappy situation and that lasts for some period of time. And then that would be the thing, like, where it's like, you would stick it out with that person, you know? You know? But.

Nicole [00:14:26]: But see, when she said it, I took it as unhappy in the relationship. Not just like, unhappy and, like, depression can just be, like, unhappy. Not, like, with the person you're with, just like.

John [00:14:39]: But the state. But the other person, because of that, is probably gonna Be unhappy in relationship. That's why I said that.

Nicole [00:14:45]: Yeah. I mean. Yeah, I get that.

John [00:14:47]: Right. Because if you're with someone who's depressed.

Nicole [00:14:49]: All the time, it weighs on you, especially if you're around them and you're.

John [00:14:54]: Probably going to be unhappy in their relationship at sometime, you know, Especially if they're, like, really depressed or they don't want to get out of bed.

Nicole [00:15:00]: Right.

John [00:15:00]: Like, you're obviously going to stick with them. But again, it's the different circumstances that. Right. You could ask the question, how long would you stick with someone in. In that case that you're married, if they're depressed and they don't want to get out of bed type of depressed?

Nicole [00:15:18]: I mean, I would still say maybe a year. Only because of this. Only because of this.

John [00:15:23]: Okay.

Nicole [00:15:24]: And I would say longer. But a year of them not trying, just.

John [00:15:29]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:30]: Just succumbing to the depression. If you're trying.

John [00:15:35]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:35]: And I can tell you're trying. I will stick through it. There is no time limit. But if you're not. That's. I guess my issue is if you're going years, a year or years without trying to fix it. Anything.

John [00:15:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:51]: Just like, sweeping it under the rug. That's where I'm like. Like, there does need to be a time limit. But if you're trying.

John [00:15:59]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:15:59]: And there is, like, you know, some sort of growth happening or healing happening or something happening. And, like, even if it goes back that I'm. There is no, like, limit.

John [00:16:14]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:16:15]: It's the, like, not checking out. Right. And the thing is, like, when you're in a relationship, there's only so much you can do.

John [00:16:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:23]: So you can do all that you can do, but if your partner chooses not to do anything, there's no way you can control that.

John [00:16:32]: No.

Nicole [00:16:33]: And so there does need to come a time. And granted, it might be different for different people, but there does come a time. And I. I guess it's like, not as long for you and me because I know how we act normally. And if it goes a whole year, that's like 10 years in our relationship.

John [00:16:50]: Wait a minute. So you love me more, so you leave me sooner? Is that what you're trying to say?

Nicole [00:16:55]: In a weird way? Kind of.

John [00:16:57]: I kind of get it. But I'm a bit conflicted, though, because on one hand, I agree. And like, in our relationship, it is. It would be. Us being in that kind of situation would be more severe because of the. Of the clothes, because of what we've been through. The closest that we have what we know, our level of emotional intelligence and relationship intelligence, that it would feel more drastic.

Nicole [00:17:25]: Right.

John [00:17:26]: However, at the same time, there's the like, okay, you make a vow, you make a commitment. You say, to death do us part. You say, in sickness and in health, you. You don't say, unless I'm not feeling it anymore. I'm like, I'm not happy in the relationship. And so there's a commitment that's. And especially when you create a family, too. Right? It's no longer just you. It's no longer just your spouse. Now you have children, you've created a unit. And especially in that circumstance, I think unless there's abuse, you shouldn't be leaving that situation.

Nicole [00:18:03]: Right. But I would also say when you got married, you made a commitment to work on your relationship and to, like, put in the effort.

John [00:18:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:14]: And that's why I'm saying, like, if there's no effort being put in, I don't feel like you're upholding your marriage. I feel like that's just you staying in a binding contract. Like, it's like people who are in a binding contract, but they're like, I'm just gonna do the bare minimum because I'm stuck in this. Like, and that's not okay either. Like, you can't justify by being like, well, I'm staying with you. If you're not doing anything to actually fix the relationship or help the relationship, like, that's kind of cheating the system. That's kind of being like, well, technically, I'm still committed to you. I'm upholding my vow. But also, at the same time, you're not. Because, like, you're not doing all the other things that come with having a marriage.

John [00:19:00]: That's why I'm conflicted is because I agree with both sides of it. Right. It's like, you know, because it's hard to determine the circumstance in which someone would do that. It's like. It's almost like the question is. Becomes more like, when do you give up on someone? How long before you give up on someone? And I think a valid answer could be never. If you've made commitments and you've started a family and you've made the promise, and you said, because why did you stand up there and make the promise if you didn't know the person well enough to say, look, I'm never going to give up on you. It doesn't even matter if you're in a dark.

Nicole [00:19:36]: Love is blind and you only had four weeks.

John [00:19:38]: Well, yeah, no, but it doesn't matter if you're in a dark place and you've forgotten, you know, what we had. But I'm never going to give up on you. I think that that is more the direction I'm leaning. Again, it's hard to see it in our circumstances. Hard to see it. But I still feel like unless there's abuse or infidelity, if you've made that vow, like, if you stood up there, you don't have to make the vow. But if you're so sure about this person that you're like, okay, no matter what happens, I'm going to stick with you. Because here's why I would say this. Actually, I just thought of this. Now, what if someone gets a debilitating disease or their face is burned off in a car accident or something, you know, where it's like, where the quality of life, where you're just a caretaker for them at that. At that point, you're not going to be happy in the relationship, obviously, but you have committed to this person forever for life. And so you know that it still applies. Like, so that's why I would say, well, and I. Aside from abuse, I think that it would still apply.

Nicole [00:20:48]: I mean, I agree with you. I think it's more something you can control versus something you can't. Because obviously if something happened to you that was out of your control, that's different. Like, it wouldn't be any time frame. But it's like if you stopped being who you are and you stopped caring about our relationship and you stopped working on our relationship and you just focused on yourself or like you were, you know, ignoring me or, you know, all the things that would make me unhappy in the relationship. Right. That, like, would basically have to be like, you doing a 180 and.

John [00:21:25]: Right.

Nicole [00:21:25]: Acting totally different. That is something you can control. And I would be concerned that, like, one, obviously we'd have. I tried to have a lot of conversations and be like, where did this come from? Like, what is causing this? And all these things. And I would have hoped that you could go back to who you were. But it's also like, if you didn't try, though, for a whole year, I would be concerned, especially knowing you and knowing what you're capable of.

John [00:21:54]: That's why it's hard to think of the circumstance.

Nicole [00:21:56]: Well, it's harder in our situation because when we were talking about it too, when she was like five to seven years, I'm like, some people would probably do that, but it's because they already live separate lives. So five to seven Years of just being two independent people and not really being the happiest you can be in your relationship. It doesn't seem that bad to some people. But in a situation like you and I where we're so closely, like, intertwined that I don't think I could live like that for five to seven years, I could not live.

John [00:22:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:32]: After having what we had now and go to, like, complete opposite and basically just, like, roommates and us doing our own thing, I couldn't live like that.

John [00:22:41]: And.

Nicole [00:22:42]: And, yeah, like, we would still be together because we got married, but it's not what we agreed to when we got married. It's not the love. It's not a marriage to me if you're living. To me, it's not a marriage if you're just roommates and you tolerate each other. That's not a marriage. You've turned it into a friendship. And yeah, you have a legally binding document that says you're more than just friends, but you're acting like just friends.

John [00:23:07]: Okay, but I think you're looking at two extremes. Right. Because. And I agree. I mean, it would be really weird to be roommates. Right. That kind of. But I think where a lot of people end up is in the middle, where there's a lot of bitterness, and they start to, like, have bitterness towards each other. I don't want to say hate, but in a way, like, resentment. Resentment towards each other. And so they're caught in the crazy cycle. And so they're. They're. Neither of them are really happy in their relationship. They're both kind of trying to work on it. Like, they don't have the emotional intelligence because they haven't watched Better Than Perfect podcast in order to be able to do that. So. Which. They should watch it. So. So. So the thing is that, like, that's really. Because that's who we're really asking the question to. It's not really a question for. For us as much.

Nicole [00:23:57]: That's why it's kind of hard. Right. Because, like, I answer things from my own experiences or the things that I've learned. And so I'm answering this question from our perspective, but I also understand that people aren't in our, like, situation.

John [00:24:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:12]: So it's harder.

John [00:24:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:24:14]: It's a guy that's, like, it varies.

John [00:24:17]: That's, like, wants to leave his marriage because his wife's a Right. He's like, she turned into such a. Like, she's always nagging me. She's like, I'm on my case all the time. I Mean, I still love her, but like, she's just annoying and like, just like she doesn't take care of herself anymore. And like, you know, he's got these, these things and then it's like, so you're unhappy, so how long are you going to be unhappy? And my answer to that guy, if I was coaching him, I'd be like, dude, no one forced you to get up at the altar and make this promise. Like, work on it. Work with her. Even if you feel like she's not working. Like, you made the commitment for life. You didn't. Like, she's not abusing you, right? I mean, maybe, like, I think maybe, maybe in that, you know, but I think in the extreme case where you were talking about, like, if you just, no, you didn't want to work on it and you're just trying to completely ignore someone, then that's like an emotional abuse. I, I think you're getting to the, to that level where that's okay now. Now it's like, okay, well, this person's actually being abusive. But, but I think in the, in the case of like, that guy, I would be like, no, you gotta stick it out. Like, you have a family of kids. Like, you can't just separate the family and do all this stuff just because you're not happy with the choice that you made. Now, you know, because I don't see anything like, if you tell me, oh, she's physically abusive, or even if you say she's verbally abusive constantly or, or whatever, you know those pieces, then, then I could say, okay, yeah, this makes sense, or she's cheated on you, but other than that, hey, no, you got to stick it out. You got to stick it out for a long time.

Nicole [00:25:49]: But what about what you said before where you try for three months and you just focus on the other person and then you leave? That's not in your marriage. And also, yeah, what you just said, I feel like I understand, but it's also concerning because it's like, okay, let's use the example you use your wife's a. Right, there's nothing you can do. You need to stick it out. But like, so you have to live the rest of your life unhappy because like, and you're. And you think you're gonna make your kids lives better by being unhappy. Like, yeah, as someone who saw their parents unhappy from time to time.

John [00:26:29]: Right?

Nicole [00:26:31]: Yeah, but it's like, I get it. Like, I'm not saying they should have instantly jumped to divorce, but I'm saying at the same time, like that's the issue here, right? Is that your kids also seeing you unhappy and you two treating each other poorly or ignoring each other or whatever is happening or like calling each other names like that you think it's better for your kids to stay, but that also damages them in a different way.

John [00:26:57]: But it's kind of a straw man argument because in the sense, like in that case, right, you're not. Most of the time, like 90% of the time you get someone in that situation, they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing in the relations like they think they are, because even the fact that they're saying, oh, my wife's a bitch, I already know there's something wrong with you because you just said that, right? You know what I'm saying? Like, you're not, like, that's not, that's not the, the person who has self actualization and has worked on themselves. They don't say, my wife's a bitch. They say I'm having a lot struggle with her. Like, I feel like she's not, you know, like I'm trying to improve myself and trying to improve the relationship and I'm not seeing the response from her. And it's hard to, you know, it's like, so, you know, But I mean, I mean, I know I set that up with the thing, but what I'm saying is that in, in so many of those cases, it's like, no, you haven't done. That's where I think the three month thing comes in is it's like if you have watched the Better Than Perfect podcast every week, all 50 episodes, and, and you, you know, and you've applied it and you've, you've tried to work on their relationship and it is, and you know that there's an, it really seems like the issue is the other person. And, and then you give that three month period where you put aside your needs and you just focus on them and you just, you, you don't worry about yourself and then you see no response from them at all, then okay, but, but do you realize that that will never happen?

Nicole [00:28:31]: Did you just realize that you just said three months and I said a year? Because when I first answered, I said, as long as you're working to fix it, because I agree with you. Like, you can't sit back and do nothing and be like, let's see if it gets fixed. Like, you have to be trying to fix it and you have to be focused on that and you need to change things. Yeah, but I said if for a year they didn't do anything because you can't control them, then you could leave. You said three months, so that's the thing. And then you also said, never, ever leave. So it's like, I get that it's complicated, but I feel like there does have to come a point, and maybe each person determines what it is for them. But, like, I think the thing that we both said where if you put your effort, all your effort into focusing on your partner and trying to fix what you guys have going on and, like, fix the things that you can fix within yourself and treat them better and see what happens in that circumstance, try to end the crazy cycle. Read the Love and Respect book and read the Empowered Wife book if you're a woman. And I'm sure you have some books for men as well, too, that they can read. But, like, do all that.

John [00:29:46]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:47]: And then figure out a timeline where if you're not getting anything back.

John [00:29:51]: Yeah, see, I agree.

Nicole [00:29:52]: Then there is time to think about it, because I get the commitment thing, too. Like, we made a commitment, and I intend to honor that until I die.

John [00:30:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:30:02]: But at the same time, if you did a 180 and you were a completely different person, and I'm trying to save our relationship and you could care less.

John [00:30:10]: Right.

Nicole [00:30:11]: And I do that for a whole year.

John [00:30:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:13]: Then, like, I love you more than anybody.

John [00:30:16]: Right.

Nicole [00:30:16]: But I would have to be like.

John [00:30:18]: But I've already left the relationship at that point. Right, Right. And I think that's your argument, and I think that makes sense.

Nicole [00:30:24]: Right. Like, you already broke a vow. Like, people are too literal on certain things in the vows, which I get, but they don't talk about, like, why you got married in the first place. And that's to, like, look out for each other and to support each other. And granted, it's not stated explicitly like that, but it is, like, in sickness and in health, that's supporting your partner. And if you can't even support your partner in working to fix both of your relationship because it's both of your responsibilities, you've already broken the commitment. You've already broken your vow.

John [00:30:56]: Yeah, I mean, I. I just don't want to let people off easy. I think that's. That's the big.

Nicole [00:31:00]: I don't want you either.

John [00:31:01]: Yeah, it's. It's like you. You've got to, like, really well, and the other thing about this, too, is to understand that, like, look, you better be damn sure, because I've said it before on the podcast, but divorce is the worst thing you'll ever go through in your life, it should be for most people. I know people are like, no, it's not. Yeah, but you weren't really in it, you know, but it is, it's the worst thing that you're going to go through. Worse than death. So if you want to go through that, then you better be damn sure that it's worth going through that. Because. Which again, that's where I'm like, okay, it's probably going to be an abusive situation or it could be the situation like you're talking about where. But, but see, this situation you're, you're talking about, I feel like it is rare. It will never happen. And I'll tell you why it will never happen is because you're not going to get up there and assuming that you, you made the commitment in some kind of a sound mind, you know what I mean? And make a commitment to someone that you believe that you're going to love forever and then you do all this stuff correctly, which is very hard to do in the first place and not have them respond. Right, right.

Nicole [00:32:05]: I agree.

John [00:32:06]: Yeah. Maybe the small in that case, sure. But for the 99% of people, the problem is you. It's not them. Like, like, yes, there might be two co. Conspirators in the problem, but you fixing yourself will fix the problem or make at least a lot of progress and you will see some kind of response. There is some kind of help. And that's, that's the thing is that people give up too easy because they don't, they don't know that.

Nicole [00:32:34]: Which I don't think people should give up too easy. And like I said, I can see where maybe with other, other people in a relationship that doesn't have as deep of intimacy and they're not, they don't want to be around each other 247 like we do. Like, I can see where maybe they would wait longer. But like you said, at the same time, it's like as long as you're putting everything you have into it to try to fix things and be the best version of yourself and treat them with respect and love. I agree with you that I, I can't see that not working.

John [00:33:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:07]: And then also if it doesn't work, then I feel like you also get this clarity of like, okay, that I can't do this. You know, like, I've given my all, there's nothing more I can give.

John [00:33:17]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:18]: And so, you know, this is how it has to be because I think some of the, it's mostly women, right, that are like, no, divorce was the best thing that ever happened to me. I think that they didn't really try as hard as they could and I think that the men didn't try as hard as they could.

John [00:33:36]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:36]: And they probably were in a really crappy situation where divorce seemed like the better option. And it has to get really bad, right, for a divorce to seem like the better option.

John [00:33:47]: If you try as hard as you can, divorce will be the worst thing that ever happens to you.

Nicole [00:33:51]: I think that's probably. You gave it your all, right, because.

John [00:33:54]: Because, yeah, because you gave, because you put so much in, right? And then, and you tried so hard. Right. And then you have to cut those losses at that point. And you know, that's.

Nicole [00:34:02]: Right. Well, and maybe that's, that's why, right. People, some people don't understand why you say it's the worst thing if you.

John [00:34:07]: Got married lightly, if you're just living separate lives, if you're, if that's how you were int, if you never put in the effort, then yeah, then divorce isn't going to seem so severe to you.

Nicole [00:34:17]: Well, or if you're being abused, like you said, which is an option.

John [00:34:20]: Like, even in those cases, it still is going to be severe. Right? Now you've got to deal with someone who's abused you and you're, you're, you know.

Nicole [00:34:27]: Right.

John [00:34:28]: You know. But, but yeah, I, I, I think it, it does, it does come down to, to like, you, you said it, it, it's, it, it, it's, it's difficult. It's, it's a complicated issue. Right, because, because again, the other thing I was going to say is like, there are, there are commitments that I will break, right. Like even if I entered a business deal with someone and then they, and I agreed to do this thing, but then they, they were deceptive, right. Even though I signed a thing or they turned out to be just impossible to work with. Yeah. I'm like, okay, fine, yeah, I'm a liar, then fine. You know what I mean? Like, I, I, it's going to take a lot in order for me to be willing to sacrifice that integrity in that case. But there are circumstances, right. You know, and, and, and I think that you do have to as a man especially be, have that I'm willing to walk away if I'm mistreated. But again, when you start to get into that mistreated area, that's where you start to get actually into the emotional or physical abuse, right? Because depending on the Severity of the. The mistreatment. But if someone continually mistreats you and neglects you, that is emotional abuse. Right. And I think that's the circumstance. We're kind of dancing back and forth around it. But. But I think it does. In order for that to occur, it does equate to, at that point, emotional abuse. Because if you're working on it and you're trying to help this person and you're trying to fix things and they're not responding and they're giving you the cold shoulder and they're neglecting you and they're not trying to work on the relationship at all, and they had married you and agreed to these things. I don't see how that's not emotional abuse at that. At that point, so.

Nicole [00:36:06]: Right.

John [00:36:07]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:07]: Well. And look, and I admire Marissa for saying five to seven years because that's a long time to be unhappy. Like, that's a long time. And I think that her saying that made me feel like I could tell how bad she wanted to be with him. But I think she also just wants love at the same time. But I think, you know, saying that she would wait that long, like, unhappy before they got a divorce. Like, it seems like I can see where saying that you're like, oh, she would, like, really try to work through it or give it the time. But also it's like, that's a long time. Five to seven years to be unhappy.

John [00:36:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:48]: And we only have one life. And I'm not saying I'm Oprah Winfrey of divorces. You get a divorce and you get a divorce.

John [00:36:56]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:56]: Because I agree with you that I think it should be, like, the last stitch effort and to a point where you've tried 100% for however long your timeline is. And, like, at this point, divorce is the better option than staying where you are and potentially being abused or whatever's happening. Because you have to think about it too. Right. Like, if you're trying everything and the other person's still not doing it, which I agree with you that, like, I think if one person initiates doing the right thing, it does inspire the other person to. Especially if you have a deep connection.

John [00:37:32]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:33]: I. I think that if someone for a year is just ignoring you or disregarding your efforts to try to fix things or whatever, like, that is. I don't want to say abusive, but it. It is something that's very harmful and hurtful.

John [00:37:55]: It. It does become abusive if it. To that extent and for that duration. Right. But there's also that the aspect of Two are stronger than one. When one falls down, the other one picks them up. Right? And so I think that's, that's the thing to recognize is that there does have to be a long enough amount of time and you do have to be trying to lift the other person up and they have to be refusing your help or not. Not trying to at all. Because, you know, one of the great things about being married and having a commitment is that, you know, it's a little different for us because we were not really like, because, because of the bond that we have in the relationship that we've cultivated that I don't anticipate this, this happening. But I would say, I would say that there are. For a lot of people in their lives and their relationships, there will be periods of time where one person is not fully present or fully there, or they're struggling with some stuff in their life and they're just like. And it's causing them to neglect the relationship and their partner or they're lost and having that other person carrying them, still being for. There for them while they're struggling through that time. And then eventually they come out of it and then maybe it flips the other way at some point and the other person is down and out and not, you know, or has. Is disillusioned with the relationship and they need the guidance. I think having that strength of knowing that no one's going to give up if you know someone's not going to give up on you, right? Even when you're feeling down and out, then you're so much stronger because it takes both of you in order to have the thing be destroyed. But again, like I said, there is a duration to that where it's not even necessarily the duration. It's like, are they not responding at all? Are they like. Because they could be in a bad place for a long time, for a couple years even. People go, go through things and, and, and the other person might be unhappy in the relationship, right? But they're not giving up on this person that they committed to. And I think that's what it, what it comes down because those are the circumstances where a lot of people do give up and that they don't take the commitment seriously. You know what I mean? It's like, I think that's, that's where, where I think it's important to be very committed to the thing. It's, it's clear when it's the situation that you're describing where it's like, okay, the person's not even Responding at all. They're neglecting you on purpose. They don't, you know, they're not putting any effort into the relationship. They just want to go and live their separate life. Like, they're already checked out completely. You know, I think in. In that case, you still have to obviously give it some amount of time. But. Yeah, then. Then, you know, okay, well, they're not even. They don't even care. They don't even trying. So.

Nicole [00:40:47]: Well, and I think that's, I guess my main thing where it would have a timeline is if the other person's not trying. Like, no matter what it is, and even if they're trying, but it doesn't seem like very much or it's going very slowly, I don't have a problem with that. It's the total lack of trying with everything. Like, if there's an issue with a relationship and they're not trying, if they're, you know, depressed and they're not trying to help themselves.

John [00:41:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:41:14]: You know, if, you know, whatever other circumstance would come up, like, as. As long as there's trying for me, then there is no time limit. Right. Like, and it doesn't have to be a certain amount of trying. There just. It has to be trying, like, visible. Yeah, but. Because that's really the thing, right? Is like, especially if you're in a situation where your partner is depressed or something and, you know, you can't really help them, the only way that they can get help is from themselves. Like, they have to be the one to figure out how they can help themselves not be in this state. And so, like, I totally agree with you with supporting your partner and being there and carrying the load sometimes, because that is how it's going to be in a marriage. And I'm not saying it's not. But, you know, if your partner's depressed for a year and you feel like they're not really trying, then who's to say that that might be like a permanent state? Especially with depression, it's like you can stay in that, like you said, for a really long time if you're absorbed by it and it becomes just what you are. Right.

John [00:42:31]: Like, yeah.

Nicole [00:42:33]: So even small acts of trying to combat that would matter to me and would, you know, take away whatever timeline thing. It's just the not trying.

John [00:42:45]: It's a not. Yeah, exactly. Which, which again, I. I think we, you know, that that circumstance is an extreme.

Nicole [00:42:52]: Right.

John [00:42:52]: One that I don't know if will really actually exist. Right. At that. I mean, I guess it doesn't in Some, but usually in those circumstances, it's. It's accompanied with abuse.

Nicole [00:43:04]: Right.

John [00:43:04]: Because that. To be that kind of per. Or. Or. Or some kind of mental disability or some kind of injury. Mental injury or something that. That is actually wrong with you because otherwise what happened, you know, how is that even possible? Right. Or, or you're not actually, you know, as the other person in the relationship, trying and putting in the right kind of effort and.

Nicole [00:43:29]: Right.

John [00:43:29]: You know, or you've hurt them so badly that they're not responding anymore. And now you've got to do the work to like, try and restore that. That. That thing.

Nicole [00:43:37]: But yeah, yeah, there's a lot of different circumstances and it's kind of like different answers for each one. You know what I mean? Sort of thing.

John [00:43:46]: Yeah, it's weird because, like, I think the way that that question was asked or like the way it was stated in that episode of the show, it. It comes from the perception of that you could be in that state where you would just be unhappy for five, where it is kind of more like you're living separate lives or you're just doing whatever, or you're not talking about it and you're just secretly unhappy, or you're just very. You express it sometimes that you're unhappy, like you're not trying to resolve or work things. And then, yeah, I can see someone saying, okay, well, I would be like this for five to seven years. But that kind of thinking is almost like I want someone else to magically fix my problem. And so I'm going to wait five to seven years to see if that happens. And if it doesn't happen, then I'm going to give up. Which is noble in. In thought, but is not the thing that is. Is required to. To do. Like, you have to actually really put in the effort. Because if you're just saying, okay, I'm just going to be five to seven years just. Just living my life in an unhappy state, it sounds like you're probably not talking to the person and saying, yeah, hey, I'm unhappy with this. And surprisingly, a lot of people do that. They don't say, this is what's actually bothering me, or this is what I'm unhappy about, or, I like this, I don't like this.

Nicole [00:45:01]: And if you can't talk to your partner about that, the person you're married to, who the heck can you talk to?

John [00:45:06]: Right.

Nicole [00:45:07]: If you can't be honest with them. Well, and I think that she said that, right? Not to manipulate Ramses, but in a way, kind of because he was, you know, like, I don't know if I can live like this. I don't know if I can get married and have this happen, you know, And I think she was trying to be like, well, I can handle some uncomfortable times, and then chose this, like, really big, you know, frame of time. And, you know, he had already been divorced, so who's to say that he hadn't been unhappy and for a good chunk of time? And so him hearing that was probably scared him more than made him realize, oh, yeah, sometimes there's going to be unhappy times, you know, Like, I think she did it in a weird way. Like, I get what she was trying to do, but I don't think it worked the way that she did.

John [00:46:01]: She's saying, I'm committed, like, I'm willing. Like, even if we have. It's rocky, I'm gonna stick it out. And that's really the thing is, like, if it's rocky, are you gonna stick it out? And the answer should be yes, because you made the commitment. Rocky is different than what?

Nicole [00:46:16]: Than five to seven years of unhappiness.

John [00:46:18]: Well, if it's rocky for five to seven years, that's still rocky. That's still.

Nicole [00:46:21]: And like you said, if there's some sort of effort. Yeah, then that's different. I guess maybe I took it too literally when she said unhappy, but in my mind, unhappy is like, no good times. And like, two people living, like, separate lives and barely talking to each other.

John [00:46:38]: Yeah, well, and I think the thing is, like, too many people get caught up on the word happy too. Right? Like, you're not entitled to happiness. And if you chase happiness in life, you. That's the sure formula for finding misery. You have to chase fulfillment. You have to do the things not just because. Because that's where people get lost, is they're like, oh, well, I'm not happy right now. I'm not happy in the relationship. I'm unhappy with my partner. No, that's not. That's not the. The same thing as what we're talking about. You know what I mean? That. That those are. Are choices that you make when you compare. When you. You say you want this. Those are not the things like there's a serious problem or the person's not treating you properly or, you know, that's. That's the thing. And that's. That's where I get. I guess that. That people get it is because they're like, oh, I'm not happy. I'm not happy with the situation. I'm not happy with these. These things.

Nicole [00:47:34]: Well, they gotta know that in life you're not always gonna be happy. And that's just a part of life. But it also makes the happy times better. And so I'm not going to sit here and be like, people are never going to have things come up in their marriage that challenges them. And they're not. They're going to be unhappy. Like, those things are going to happen in life one way or another. But if you really are committed to working through everything, you also take it on together. And I guess just when she was like, I would be unhappy for five to seven years, that just doesn't feel like they're working on it together. Like, it doesn't feel like a collective sort of fight for the marriage. Because that's what I feel like it should be. Like, it. Like it really shouldn't ever be one person fighting another person. Not. But I understand, like you said, that sometimes someone will have to carry a little bit more of the weight than the other person. But I think if you overall, like, fight for the marriage together and, like, work through things so you can both be as happy as you can be and have the relationship that you want to have, then that also kind of like, like. Because until she said that, I. That never came across in my mind. I didn't even have a time. Like, I didn't even have this right. Sort of thing set up in my mind. And I'm. I'm. I think people shouldn't.

John [00:48:59]: Right.

Nicole [00:49:00]: To be honest. Like, we're just talking about this because it came up and, like, logically thinking about it out loud here. But if I'm being honest, even after we talk about this, it's not going to be ingrained in my mind.

John [00:49:11]: I'm not gonna have a countdown.

Nicole [00:49:13]: You get a whole year, you know, like those little.

John [00:49:15]: There hasn't been an injury in the workplace.

Nicole [00:49:17]: Right. Five days.

John [00:49:18]: Like, I haven't been happy in six days. There's 365 days and then that's it.

Nicole [00:49:24]: Yeah. Like, I'm not. I'm honestly not gonna even think about this because I didn't think about it before. No, I don't feel like I needed to think about it. I still don't think I needed to think about it. And I get where in her circumstance she's thinking about it because of the situation she was in. And I think that if people are in actually bad situation, they should be thinking about it. But I'm. I don't feel like I should tell them they should be thinking about it. They're probably already thinking about it. But for most people, I don't think they should be dwelling on, okay, well, if I'm unhappy with my husband for three years, I'm going to leave or know if, if he does this and I'm going to leave after this amount of time. Like, like you said before, like, if you're being abused or like if things are really bad and you invest 100%.

John [00:50:09]: Right. Those are.

Nicole [00:50:10]: And you're putting everything into it and it's. Nothing is still happening. You pick whatever timeline feels best for you. But that is the only circumstance, like abuse or infidelity or you are being.

John [00:50:24]: Like, it would be, I guess, I mean, just go say neglect.

Nicole [00:50:27]: Right. I think that's neglected for. Because that would be time.

John [00:50:30]: Maybe that's the best way to say it is abuse infinitely. Or neglect.

Nicole [00:50:34]: Right.

John [00:50:35]: Because it constitutes neglect. Everything that we said.

Nicole [00:50:37]: That's true. That's true. But yeah, I don't think people should dwell on it though. Like, don't, don't write down somewhere, if he doesn't, if I'm unhappy for six months of my marriage, I'm leaving, you know, like, because what you said is true. Like you made a commitment and you shouldn't diminish that.

John [00:50:56]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:50:57]: Like, you really should work, try to work through every single thing that you can.

John [00:51:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:02]: And not get divorced.

John [00:51:03]: Yeah. You didn't promise to be, to be committed as long as you're happy or. Right. That's the thing. Sorry. So that's why I think happiness is the wrong word. It's the wrong thing. Almost every time someone says happiness or there is the wrong thing. If you look at the. In their specific circumstance. Right. In their relationship, which again, you can argue, yeah, you shouldn't be trying to get married. But if Ramses is annoyed with her energy and he doesn't like. It's almost like if you don't like your partner anymore, they annoy you, they're. You can't handle their energy, whatever it is, you know, whatever excuse you. But then it's like, do you stay. You're unhappy? Do you stay married? And there, there, the answer is yes, because that's not something they're specifically doing to you. That's not like you made that commitment. You said, hey, I'm going to love you forever. You don't just go back on that because they're now annoying to you or you don't like them anymore, or you're not attracted to them anymore. Those are not excuses. Those are not reasons. Like you have to figure that out and figure out, how do you like this person? How do you find the things to like about them? How do you find a way to be attracted to them? Like, you know, because those are the excuses that people do use that are not good excuses.

Nicole [00:52:12]: They're very superficial.

John [00:52:13]: Because you made that promise that that is commitment that you have to. Like, if you just took the one, it's like, I'm not attracted to my partner anymore. Which happens many times where people. That's not a valid excuse because you made a commitment. You didn't say, like, someday you're going to be unattractive. Not you. You'll be always attractive. But, you know, whoever is thinking that, like, they're going to get old. And so the commitment can't be that light, that it's. That it's conditional on. On those.

Nicole [00:52:38]: Those superficial sort of things.

John [00:52:40]: Right.

Nicole [00:52:40]: Yeah. And I think something that people in those situations should do is write down all the things they're grateful for for their partner and things that aren't superficial, like how they are as a person and how they treat you and all those things. Like, make a list.

John [00:52:57]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:58]: Because, I mean, even with normal everyday life, if you practice gratitude, you're going to be happier.

John [00:53:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:07]: So right now, a lot of these people might be focusing on these things that. Honestly, I don't think Ramses even didn't like her energy anymore. I think all of these other things came up and now he's nitpicking everything else where if he had focused on granted, I don't think they should have gotten married because there was other things. But if he focused on the good qualities about her and was grateful to have a partner that treated him like the way that she treated him and, you know, all the good things, then those things will go away. Like, when you focus on the negative, you just find more and more negative or they become bigger seeming. Right.

John [00:53:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:48]: And that's only because you're focusing on them rather than adjusting your mindset and being grateful for the partner that you have who loves you.

John [00:53:59]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:00]: And all of these other things.

John [00:54:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:54:03]: Like, you will be happier if you do that. And a lot of people take it for granted and not even necessarily on purpose, just because we're always with our partner 24 7. Right. Or people have been married for 20 years and like, all these different things, like, you have to sometimes stop this downward spiral.

John [00:54:22]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:54:23]: And be like, no, I. This is all the things I actually have that I took for granted. And I didn't. See, see, because I was Blinded by this, this, and this. So before you just go and sign the divorce papers, you need to. You need to do everything that you can, and you need to figure out all the things that you are grateful for in the situation that you're in.

John [00:54:44]: It becomes that whole, don't love. Don't be with the one you love. Love the one you're with. Right. Which is. That's why also one of the reasons why I arrange marriages are so much more successful, because when people come into an arranged marriage, they didn't pick necessarily each other. I mean, there's different degrees of it, but they have annoying qualities that the other. And they have to learn to love those qualities. And because you're. You're stuck with this person. Right. And so you don't get to be as picky and say, oh, I'm not happy, or I don't. Like. Like, you have to learn to adapt again. Still. Abuse, neglect. Right. Yeah, those type of things. Infidelity. Yeah. Still grounds for. For separating in that. In that case, calling it quits. But. But, yeah, but. But that's the thing is, like, when you're looking at it from. That you didn't come into it with the expectation that I like this person. Right, Right. It's like you have to learn to.

Nicole [00:55:41]: Like the person you're lucky if you got married to someone you liked first.

John [00:55:44]: Right, Exactly. So that's. I think that's where we kind of get a little bit spoiled and get to a point where we are like, I'm unhappy, and the unhappy is not the. Not the right.

Nicole [00:55:56]: Well, and to not go off on a tangent because we don't have time. But I do think today's age has caused that, you know, with the dating apps and all these things where people can just instantly find somebody else, like, so much easier than before that people are taking their relationships for granted. Like, they. They are quick to divorce because they're like, oh, well, I can find somebody else, or, you know, whatever. Like, I'm not saying that's the main reason, but I think this, like, instant gratification that we've become accustomed to is not helping relationships. And that's why stopping and really appreciating what you have and the person that you're with. And like, you said, like, you got to marry somebody that you loved.

John [00:56:42]: Right. Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:43]: Some people are in arranged marriage that they're meeting somebody for the first time at the altar, and they make it work. Like, so there are things about your partner that you love.

John [00:56:53]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:56:53]: And that made you want to spend the rest of your life with them. And you need to focus on those or find those again or help bring those out of your partner or clear out all the junk that you guys swept under the rug so that you can get back to what you had before.

John [00:57:10]: Yeah. And the thing is, like, shoot, I just lost my train of thought. I should have had my notebook for.

Nicole [00:57:17]: Your first ever thing, you wrote in there.

John [00:57:19]: Yeah, I was gonna. I think it was about the arranged marriage or, like, choosing. I can't. It was there. What were you just talking about real quick?

Nicole [00:57:32]: You should appreciate the person that you fell in love with because you fell in love with them for a reason.

John [00:57:36]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:57:39]: You should be grateful.

John [00:57:40]: Just. It disappeared.

Nicole [00:57:41]: Some people have to learn to love the person they're with. And you got to marry somebody that you already loved and wanted to spend the rest of your life with. Look, that's about everything.

John [00:57:52]: Yeah, it was something tangentially related to that. I don't know.

Nicole [00:57:58]: Oh, instant gratification. Or, like, dating apps, things like that.

John [00:58:02]: Oh, yeah. That's what it was about. That's what it was. It was about how the. The dating app. The. Like, he's got it. But it's like, the swappable nature of people. It's, like, right there.

Nicole [00:58:25]: It's on the cusp.

John [00:58:27]: It's like. Yeah, it had to do with the. With the dating apps.

Nicole [00:58:31]: Well, everybody thinks the grass is greener on the other side. Right? Like, but the grass is greener where you water it. That's the real thing. But in today's age, people do think the grass is greener on the other side because there's so many other sides.

John [00:58:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:58:46]: Like, there's so many other sides of the mountain. Right. Like, but you don't need a million sides.

John [00:58:53]: I got it. So you helped me. Thank you. See, you kept on. Oh, no, I almost lost it again. That's why I was saying. Okay. Because people are more disposable in their relationship if they haven't done the things that we talk about on the podcast. Right. That is actually becoming one. Right. Which means merging your finances. Right. Because if you have separate bank accounts and everything, and you're effectively living separate lives and not depending on each other in any way, you don't have that interdependence. Not codependence. Interdependence. Then, yeah, it's really easy to just bail, because all you gotta do is just, like, sign a paper like, you got your bank account. I got my job. You got your job.

Nicole [00:59:36]: Right.

John [00:59:36]: It doesn't. Not a big Deal. Right? So you're making it so that it's easier when you should not be making it so it's easier. You should make it so it's harder. Because the reason why you're getting married is because you want someone that has your back all the time and you want to have someone's back and you want to have that security of commitment. And so if the man is the leader of the relationship, right, if you're in a situation where instead of two separate people combining, you have one whole that's created where again, it's. Not everyone can be in the situation, but where there is the man working the wife is, is not the man's being the main, let's say main breadwinner for the house so that she's depending on his income where he's depending on her for the nurturing and caring and support that he needs to function and live his life and take care of him. Now you're interdependent now. Now it's not as dis. And I can't just get rid of you so easily, right, because. And swap you out with someone else, right, Because. And also, like, you shouldn't want to.

Nicole [01:00:39]: But I get that you're creating another like element to it where you need each other. Like you said, like. And so it's not just so easy to be like, okay, well, we're done, you know, it's over.

John [01:00:50]: Because you. But. And if you're creating that depth of the intimacy in the relationship, then then you're creating a stronger bond that's not so easily.

Nicole [01:00:59]: Right.

John [01:00:59]: Broken. And that's what I think people are afraid. You shouldn't even be getting married if you're not going to be all in, right? Because you're just setting yourself up for a disaster, right? And so. But if you are all in, that's where again, we talked about this many times about women having separate set aside bank account because whatever. Or guys having like, okay, well, I need my prenuptial just in case, you know, it's like when you're doing those things, you're creating the circumstances in which make it so that you're treating the other person as disposable, right? Whereas they're. If they're integral to your survival, right, Then, then yeah. Then divorce should become something that is something that you fear because it's going to inhibit your survival. Because. But if you haven't done that, then yeah, then you don't care. It's not a big deal, right? It's like, okay, well, because there's some paperwork and some hassle.

Nicole [01:01:51]: But, yeah, you can't make it no risk. Like, love is a risk. And if you want zero risk, you need to not get married, not even really be in a relationship, which I know people don't want to do. Like, you know, they do want to take the risk. But the thing is, like you said, you have to actually fully take the risk. Especially, I can understand if you're in a relationship, you're not married yet, you don't want to combine your finances, whatever. I can understand that. But marriage, yeah, that is the ultimate commitment. You should be taking two people and becoming one person. And like you said, like, there can't be any, you know, safety nets on either side because then you're not really taking a risk. You're not really investing 100% in your partner.

John [01:02:42]: Yeah, yeah. It's like, you know, I think I said this before, but you like to have an analogy every episode for me. So if you're a tightrope walker and you got the, you know, pole, you're doing a tightrope, but there's a big safety net underneath, right? I mean, you're going to still be trying hard because you don't want to fall. But if there's no safety net, you'll be trying really hard, right? Like, you can give it everything. You're not, because there is no right.

Nicole [01:03:10]: You're going back.

John [01:03:11]: You're going to die if, you know. And so the safety nets are bad. They make it so you're not putting as much in. That's why it's like, you got to go balls to the wall, right? Put it all in, put it all on the line, or don't do it at all.

Nicole [01:03:27]: Which I know people are going to be like, I already did that and I got burned. And it's like, okay, then don't take risk anymore. Like, you can't want to get married. Then again, if you're not going to do it the way that it's supposed.

John [01:03:38]: To be done, it doesn't guarantee that you're not going to fall.

Nicole [01:03:41]: Right.

John [01:03:42]: But it guarantees that you have the best chance of not falling.

Nicole [01:03:45]: Right. Because you're all in. You're focused on making it.

John [01:03:49]: Yeah, it's always going to be that in life. That's always going to be the choices. You can put one foot on the dock and one foot in the boat.

Nicole [01:03:58]: But then you're going to be doing the split soon, and you might rip your pelvic bone off.

John [01:04:02]: Exactly. Exactly. Right. But if you commit to the boat hey, maybe the boat sinks, but you know what? It's. You're definitely going to be falling in the water. If you got one foot on dock, one foot on the boat, that's just a matter of time. So that's why.

Nicole [01:04:20]: Yeah, knock on it. I don't think we have anything for this week.

John [01:04:27]: Are you sure about that?

Nicole [01:04:28]: Do we?

John [01:04:29]: No, I'm just kidding.

Nicole [01:04:31]: Like, what?

John [01:04:33]: No, we have. We. We should pat ourselves.

Nicole [01:04:38]: I'm gonna knock on the wood. You're like, like.

John [01:04:44]: I'm not gonna say. I'm not gonna say what I, What I'm thinking. I'm not gonna say.

Nicole [01:04:47]: Yeah, well, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna.

John [01:04:49]: Say that we're the greatest couple in the, in the world who, like, have solved all of our relationship problem. I'm not gonna say that, you know, just sarcastically. That's. Because that doesn't, that doesn't jinx you if you say sarcastically.

Nicole [01:05:01]: Oh, okay.

John [01:05:01]: Yeah, but. But I'm gonna think that still. I'm not gonna say it. I'm not gonna say it, but I'm gonna think it in my head. Not sarcastically, but in my head. Only sarcastically out here.

Nicole [01:05:12]: This is for. In your head.

John [01:05:13]: Okay.

Nicole [01:05:13]: I've already knocked like 50 times just to make sure.

John [01:05:16]: No, but we, We've. We've done the work and we've, we've done good. It doesn't mean that we won't ever, you know, have an issue for you.

Nicole [01:05:23]: Guys, but mess up. But, but we put into practice the things we come here and talk about, and that's why we come here and talk about it, because we've had to learn the hard ways on some of the things, but some of the things, you know, we're figuring out right now, or we'll figure out and we'll share with you guys and maybe you guys can learn it the easier way than we learned, but sometimes, you know, you're still gonna make a mistake, but you might be like, oh, I watched the podcast episode, though, and this is what they did when this happened, and you can try it and see for your.

John [01:05:57]: Yeah, and it does help too, I think, having the. Because there is more than one time where, you know, some thought went through my head and, And I did think about the podcast and I thought about.

Nicole [01:06:11]: Do I really want to say John do wwjd. What would John do?

John [01:06:17]: I really. Well, I thought more like, do I really want to have an end segment on the podcast?

Nicole [01:06:21]: You know, it's keeping you in line a little bit.

John [01:06:24]: You gotta, like, think a little Bit be like, all right, before you say that before. I mean, it wasn't like, you know, that. That. But just, Just like, okay, just a check. Just so, like, sure. You want to get upset right now? Like, where's that going to go when you get upset? Like, why don't you just act loving instead of being upset? Because that'll go to a better place, you know, But. But it's just it. It always does come down to that simple choice of, instead of being upset, could I just be loving instead. Could I be understanding instead of. You know, I mean, it sounds really easy to say it, but. But it does. It is that easy. But it's also that hard, you know, right in that moment and be like. Because you always have a choice to be upset or be loving, you can't be both at the same time, as we. As we have discovered. Right. Like, I don't understand why you're not acting loving when you're upset.

Nicole [01:07:11]: Right.

John [01:07:12]: Like, can't you just be loving and upset at me at the same time? It's like, no, you kind of got to choose. That's the thing. That's like, yeah, we gotta.

Nicole [01:07:19]: Oh, you realize that.

John [01:07:20]: Well, I. Yeah, I think that's. I think that's. That's become obvious because we both tried it, right? Yeah, we both made the same argument. Like, when you're upset, you don't act loving to me. You know, both of us have said that to each other. Right. And it's like, yeah, that's. Because that's. I think that's a fundamental law of nature. You can't get around that. You're just gonna have to, like, choose to be loving instead of choosing to be upset. Like, you can choose which one you want.

Nicole [01:07:41]: Yeah.

John [01:07:42]: Right. Like, does. Does being upset mean that much to you that you're gonna sacrifice being loving? Yeah, that's true. Some food for thought for the next day. Yeah. Next time you're in a situation and you can make that choice. So true.

Nicole [01:07:57]: Well, leave us a review.

John [01:07:59]: Yes. On the Apple podcast. I mean, we got a lot of. On Spotify. It's good.

Nicole [01:08:04]: Spotify.

John [01:08:05]: Yeah. But the itunes or not, I guess it's what, Apple podcast now. Podcast. Yeah. And if you want a. You know, if you want to be on the podcast, you're in San Diego.

Nicole [01:08:22]: Or if you want to send us an email with your. If you're not in San Diego, you.

John [01:08:26]: Can send us an email and you.

Nicole [01:08:27]: Want us to talk about your situation.

John [01:08:30]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:08:31]: Maybe we need to start saying this at the beginning of the episode. For, like, people who only watch like five minutes.

John [01:08:36]: I don't care about those people. Those people are losers. They suck. They're horrible people.

Nicole [01:08:41]: Wow.

John [01:08:42]: None of them are watching right now, so.

Nicole [01:08:44]: That's also very true. So you guys are loyal.

John [01:08:50]: They're. They're the most awesome people in the world.

Nicole [01:08:53]: That's true.

John [01:08:53]: Yeah. They're gonna have perfect. Relate. Better than perfect relationships. I. I feel it. So, you know, true. But. But yeah, if you want to email us, email us@betterthanperfectpodcast gmail.com and. Yeah. You want to tell us your life story? Problems? We'll. We'll. We'll talk about them.

Nicole [01:09:09]: We'll be nice.

John [01:09:11]: Come in person.

Nicole [01:09:11]: I'll be nice.

John [01:09:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:09:12]: I can't. John might get a little tough.

John [01:09:16]: Yeah, I'll be good. Give you some tough love.

Nicole [01:09:18]: I'll tell you something, you're still nice about it. Don't say it.

John [01:09:21]: Okay.

Nicole [01:09:22]: Okay.

John [01:09:23]: All right. That's it. We'll see you next time.