John: Because I don't think a lot of people, especially men, no offense, know what it means to have a kid, what it's going to entail. That's what we're going to talk about. A woman knows a little bit more because her body goes through it. She's carrying this kid. She knows what's going to happen the first nine months, and she knows pretty well, basically, what's going to happen thereafter. Obviously, you learn things as you actually have the child. I don't feel like a lot of times people really realize what having a kid even means.

Nicole: Yeah, don't have it. It's beyond the perfect. We discover through our flaws. We complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we show you how two imperfect people helping each other equals one better than other. Oh, helping each other finish each other's sentences. There we go. We learned this week what is after octuple. Nonuple. It's either nonuple or nonuple. And then you get into decuple. So now, when we say jinx and we go double jinx, triple jinx, quadruple jinx, we can go to... We never talked about that. So yeah, when we say something at the same time because we share the same brain, we'll be like, "Jinx, double jinx," and then we also say all of those things at the same time, like the jinxes. And we got to like nine, and we were like, we have no idea what nine is. We're like, "Ninchle jinx." So we had to end. So now we can go up to 10. You know, maybe even 11. Like, what's 11? I'm like, we're not going past 11. We need to just stop at 10.

John: Yeah, we're obnoxious.

Nicole: We are. It's fine. We've accepted it. Yeah, but there's so many times when it's like we say the same thing at the same time.

John: Yeah, because we share a brain. Yeah. All right, so, oh yeah, we got back from our trip from our anniversary. Going to be a different time 'cause we're in the time, you know. So, but no one knows when our anniversary is anyway. So...

Nicole: Thirty... You guys, have we talked about 37? I think we talked about 37.

John: Yeah, I would think. I don't know if we, like, did it a full... We'll have to do a whole episode on that. But there's a... about our number, 37. So we decided that our wedding anniversary date is March 7th.

Nicole: Yeah, 37. You can just make up your own date when you want when you're an adult. So, we don't follow the rules here, obviously. We just like to confuse all our friends and family. So, but yeah, so we went on a nice trip that John planned. It was amazing. It was a little cloudy. We went to Kauai, but we still made the best of it.

John: Yeah, talked about moving to Kauai. Now that would be nice. But what would we do without...

Nicole: This. All right, well, it is your topic for the week.

John: Yes. So, you know, as I always do, I waited till the last minute and couldn't decide what topic to do. Um, but I think that we should do the topic of children.

Nicole: Okay, this week, I guess, just children. 'Cause there's a lot of different aspects. I mean, I know one we had written down was like kids and how that affects marriage and things like that. But also, like, parenting and, you know, like when you get into a relationship and you figure out if people want kids. You know, that was also a thing with us too. So yeah, I mean, do you want to start with how we started and go into when you're dating, having the kid conversation?

John: Yeah, we could do that. That makes sense. Well, so when we went on our first date, I had the brilliant idea of asking John if he wanted to have kids. And the reason I asked him is 'cause I didn't want him to change his answer based on my answer. So I didn't want him to ask me first. I wanted to know his genuine feeling. So I was like, "Do you want to have kids?" And he told me no. And so I was like, "Well, this will be a great first date, but I do want to have kids, so I'll probably never see you again."

Nicole: Yeah, and then he was like, "Wow. Wow. Well, for the right person." And I was like, "I don't know." Like, I was genuinely conflicted 'cause I'm like, now he's changing his story. This is exactly what I didn't want him to do.

John: You can't win.

Nicole: But also, like, that was also to that John didn't tell me that he already had a child. Which I understand because, you know, when you have a kid, you don't want to like bring that up until far enough into dating where it's important. Um, to protect your child and, you know, that sort of thing. So in the moment, he didn't want to have any more kids. And I was like, "Well, I want to have kids." And I didn't know he already had a kid. So I was like, "You know, I want to have a kid, right?" And I had always wanted to have a kid or two. I don't think I would have gone past two because I'm also terrified of the process of having a child. Like, it's a very terrifying thing. But so yeah, like, it started out kind of like, I was like, "I don't know 'cause he changed his answer," which is not normally a good thing, ladies, if it changes his answer. I mean, there were some specific circumstances around that, which, you know, we discussed in the other episode. But I was not supposed to even be on the date, and, you know, obviously didn't want you to know I had kids and so...

John: Right. But I did also, like, genuinely, as we talked, and, you know, and I got to know you, then realized that I actually could be open to this. Like, it wasn't genuine. It wasn't just me turning around the answer just to hear what you or just to say what you wanted to hear. But I was like, "You know, the right person, yeah, this." Like, well...

Nicole: And I was like, "Okay, well, Nicole could be a good mother." And part of the reason too, just to give a little bit of a backstory to, and just kind of my viewpoint, was, or actually, I guess this is fast forward to when, uh, when my daughter came over to our apartment. And we had made these grapes. I think I talked about this before. But where you put like Kool...

John: Yeah, or Jello. That's right. And they're in the freezer and whatever. Anyway, you know, uh, Sophia, you know, she picks up some baggy grapes, and she, and it comes apart, and it goes all over the floor, right? And it's like these staining Jello. It's just a mess, right? And there's a dog, you know, yeah, dogs have gra...

Nicole: Yeah, like, and I thought, you know, and so in my mind, I'm like, "Oh, Nicole's going to freak out."

John: And I wasn't even like, "It's, you know, a big deal." Like, "She's probably going to freak out." No yelling, no screaming, none of that. Just calmly helping Sophia pick up the grapes and making sure that the dog doesn't get the grapes. And I was like, "Okay, that's..." But, but that, but my point is, is that, you know, my conception of why I didn't want to have kids or any more kids...

John: It was partly because that's what I was used to expecting as a response, and so, like, a woman that can handle that situation and not lose her cool, yeah, that I would want to have a kid with. Well, you had the privilege of having a kid and introducing me to her and getting to actually see our interaction, but some people don't. So the thing is, like, and I'm not saying ask a man this on the first date. I'm a very bold person, so I didn't care, and you know what I mean. If it is important to you and you have the courage to say it, I'd be like, okay, ask him. As a woman, ask him how he feels, yeah. So you know, don't be like, "I want to have kids. What do you want?" Be like, "Do you want to have kids?" so then that way you can get his genuine response. And I do believe you. I do believe that you were like, "I would have another child for you." Like, I think that that was very genuine. But the thing is, like, you also don't want to go on a date and you want kids, and a guy be like, "I don't want kids," like, no matter what, and then try to convince him to have kids or vice versa because that's just going to lead to a rift in your marriage, a rift with your child, you know, between them probably, or some sort of thing. And that's just not, you know, yeah, not a good thing. And I do think that children are a make-or-break thing for relationships. Like, I feel like unless it's someone like you, where you're like, "I would genuinely do this," and like, as the other person, you can feel that genuine answer from them and know that what they're saying is true, then I would say if you guys have different views, to go separate ways and to at least ask it early enough. I'm not saying first date if you're, you know, like not trying to do that on the first date, but early enough where you can end things without it being too messy.

Nicole: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I probably would push back a little bit on it, saying that the right, like if the relationship dynamic is such, then you can figure out that thing, you know what I mean. Some people are just really opposed or really want to, you know. But I do think that if the relationship, you know, is dynamic, like, if you're a really good compatible match, that you can kind of sense that out and figure that out. So for example, I guess I would say, you know, if you really care about someone, unless there's some really good reason why you don't want to have kids or more kids or whatever it is, and that person, and you're with someone who really does want to have kids and that's really important to them, then you would probably be more likely to say, "Okay, I would do that with this person." Like, you know. So, I think that you might shut yourself off from opportunities that could work out by taking their first answer when it, you might not even really know. Like, it's kind of unfair to give that answer because it is situational, right? So, people have in their mind ahead of time whether they want to have kids, whether they want to have more kids, yeah. And it is, I feel like, slippery to base that, like I get your reasoning, like you based it on me and how I acted, but sometimes I'm like, I don't know if that's a good enough answer because what if for some reason you and your spouse or the person you're with end up having something happen and you're not together anymore, and you really wanted to have a child because of the person. Like, yes, you know that that person will still be a good mother or a good father, yeah, but it's like, it was based on this other thing rather than like wanting to have a child.

John: Well, I mean, yeah, I can see that, but at the same time, it's like, I think the question is not, "Do I want to have kids?" It's like, "Do I want to have kids with you?" Which, I mean, I agree, but I think that some people, like, they know that they want to have kids. They know, well, especially as a woman, they know they want to be a mom, and they know they want to, you know, they know usually how many children they want to have. And I feel like a lot of women these days aren't wanting to have kids, actually, and guys do. And sometimes, if I'm being totally honest, guys want to have kids for the wrong reasons, to carry their name on. They want to have kids, but then they're not really involved in their kids' lives. So it's like, why, what are you doing? And then, so like, as a woman, you go on a date with a guy, and he's like, "Well, I know I want to have kids," and you know he's not probably going to say to carry on his name. Some guys might outright say it, but, and as a woman, you're like, "I don't really want to have kids, but I love this person." You know, what happens then? And just to throw in on the flip side, I told you I wanted to have kids when you and I got together, and then when, you know, our family came together, I felt fulfilled. I had a kid. I still have a kid. Like, your daughter feels like my daughter, and so I don't feel the need to have any more kids because I already feel like a mom. I feel like that part of me is fulfilled. So in that instance, it's a little different, but yeah, I guess just the point of view of maybe like somebody being pretty adamant on no but still caring enough about the person to then change their mind, but they're not mentally in the mindset to actually have a kid because I don't think a lot of people, especially men, no offense, know what it means to have a kid, what it's going to entail. That's what we're going to talk about. A woman knows a little bit more because like her body goes through it. She's carrying this kid. She knows what's going to happen the first nine months, and she knows pretty well, you know, basically what's going to happen thereon after. Like, obviously, you learn things as you actually have the child because every child's different, and you go through different things, but, you know, I don't feel like a lot of times people really realize what having a kid even means.

John: Yeah, don't have kids. Don't have a... I don't know how people have a ton of kids because that is a lot.

Nicole: Well, it's a lot to be able to focus the attention I feel like each child needs on them, you know. When you have multiple, 'cause to be honest, too, that's another reason why I think we're choosing not to have any more kids because like that would take away from Sophia, and she deserves, you know, to feel the attention and love that we give her, and our relationship dynamic too because we know what it's like 'cause we have Sophia one week off, one week on, right. And it's like, you know, obviously, I love her to death, right. She's my daughter, and, you know, however, our relationship dynamic has to be different, and it would be different if we had her full-time because we'd have to adapt to that, but it, it just, you know, like when it's me and you, we have, we're doing things together all the time. We're just glued to the hip, you know.

John: All the time, everything. We're not necessarily not kissing in front of Sophia, but we're not to the degree that we would be on our own.

Nicole: It should be. She's the child. Yeah, most people don't have a week on, a week off, you know what I mean? So they get to sample it. That's why it's like, if people had a week on and week off, if they got to get a sample of it, most people wouldn't have kids. They wouldn't. Now, I'm not saying that it's a bad thing necessarily, but what I'm saying is that what people don't realize about kids is how it will change your relationship. I think too that most people might not choose to not have kids if they have a relationship like we have as well because we do enjoy each other's company. Right. Because there are plenty of couples who don't necessarily get along in their relationship as well, and so they get that unconditional love from their children. And so they would have, I guess, they're the ones having like five kids because, you know, they're getting that unconditional love from them and the love that they want from their relationship from their children, which means they're raising Mama's boys and daddy's little girls. Like, not good because that's, they're, you know, there's the whole Freudian thing of your parent and like creating those unhealthy things where you're getting the relationship needs met from your children instead of from your spouse.

John: Right. But I do think that, you know, it does, like you said, change the dynamic of your relationship, not like in a bad way, but the focus when it's just you guys, it's just on you guys. What you guys want to do, you can pick up and go wherever you want to travel and whatnot. But when you have a child, there's so many more things you have to not only plan what you're going to do but what they're going to do, and, you know, that sort of thing. And you also need to give them attention. You know, we have one child, so she doesn't have a sibling to play with or something like that, so her attention comes from us.

Nicole: Yeah, and so that's why, you know, when we do the 50/50, when the weeks we have her, it is a lot about her. Like, not to make her spoiled with that. No, we definitely don't do that, but you know, we have a whole week to do things that we want to do, just you and I.

John: Exactly. So it makes no sense in our minds to do date nights on a week that we have her when we can do three date nights next week, you know, and not have to hire a babysitter or leave her alone or any sort of thing like that. Like, that's not to say that we went on our anniversary trip just us because it was our anniversary trip, but that's not to say that we don't do things and vacations with her as well too, and those sort of things. So, you know, we've balanced it because we also have a little bit more like way of balancing it with the 50/50, but I know that it has to be harder for, you know, even good relationships to find the time to go on date nights and, you know, how much time away from my children and, you know, sometimes too emotionally as the wife.

Nicole: Yeah, who's really sensitive to the emotions, sometimes I take on a lot of her emotions and things she's going through, and it's a lot for me. And sometimes that week where it's just me and you, and I can just like breathe through the things that we went through necessarily is really helpful. But I realized that a lot of families don't have that, you know. I do empathize with mothers and fathers who, you know, are going through that hard stuff all the time and with multiple kids, you know. You have multiple emotions coming from multiple people, so it is a lot emotionally to take on. It's hard work, and it's really hard to do it the right way, but you need to do it the right way.

John: Yeah, and I would, you know, I would kind of challenge, too, like some of the people that think, or, and you kind of said this about, it's like, I want to have three kids exactly, or it's like you don't need to plan so much of your life that way. It's like, I need to live in this house. Like, people don't plan that, but people are like, oh, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to have three kids. And it's like, okay, I mean, like having a kid, let's see how life goes and see, you know, is that, I mean, obviously, you have a time. I mean, I can maybe see planning one or two because most people are like, I only want to have one, or most people are like, I want to have two so they have someone to play with, but base it on who you're with, you know, because that, it's going to put a lot of stress on that relationship, and you have to have a rock-solid foundation. Like, the relationship's where it all starts, and that should be the number one, you know. It's the core of it. Like, you start off in a relationship, and it's just you two, and then you have children a lot of the time, or like either way, like it's the relationship first because that is what influences the child and everything else in the household.

Nicole: So I agree with that. Yeah, and then, like, like we said in our dynamic too, it would be, you know, I don't know if we didn't have Sofia, like it would still, I think we'd probably have a kid, but it would still, it would be hard for us to do because we spend so much time together, and like, you're going to lose.

John: Yeah, and you're going to lose some of it. It doesn't mean that like you can't ever be together. It's just that when you have a kid, it is going to change things in terms of the time, especially in the first few years, and, you know, and all of that stuff. But you're just not going to be able to, you know, if that's what you want to do, it's going to, it's an 18-year decision. It's more than an 18-year decision, but it's at least 18 years where your life is going to be changed. And so I would almost venture to say that most people shouldn't even have kids. Like, they should really think about it. Is that really what you want to do? Because it might not make your life better. Just because you've been told that's what you're supposed to do and all these things doesn't mean that's what you should actually choose to do. Again, you know, I'm glad that we have Sophia, and she's wonderful, but a lot of people also aren't ready to be parents either because, and then we'll talk about that a little bit too, is, you know, the parenting is not an easy thing to do, and you're taking a lot of responsibility. You can really mess someone up, most human beings.

Nicole: Yeah, most people go to therapy because of what their parents did to them. Right. And even if you do everything right, I know Sophia's going to one day be like, hey, this affected me that you guys did. And we try to do every single thing right that we possibly can.

John: I'm very realistic of the fact that one day she might come to us and be like, "Hey, you guys did these things." That's not going to happen with us. He thinks that, but perfect though, like we don't do a lot of the things that would traumatize a child.

Nicole: You're right, we don't do a lot of things that would traumatize a child, but we don't do any of the things that, I mean honestly, I can say this, I can say that we can take pride in this. Neither of us have yelled at Sophia one time, not one time since she's been... not even one time, not even one slip, not even, "Oh, I lost my cool and I'm sorry." So neither I have done it, nor have you done it, so...

John: Yeah, maybe we're not perfect parents, but there's not going to be trauma that she's going to have from us, not from you know, at least since when we've been together. So, I'm pretty confident.

Nicole: I'm glad you're confident. I'm not saying that she's going to come and like dump all this stuff on us, but yeah, I'm also like, you know, we're human. We don't always make the right choices or decisions, even though I do feel like, like you said, we do a lot of the time make the right choices and decisions.

John: Yeah, but yeah, I think I feel like there was a few things that I wanted to say still before we move on. Parenting, I know, um, about choosing to have kids or the... it was like multiple things. Here's one, maybe that space, and you can riff on this if you want to. I was going to say because you mentioned it before, relationships come... The relationship, so in regards to a child, your wife comes first, your husband comes first. That's who comes first, not the child. That's essential, otherwise the relationship will... You cannot put the child first. You're the foundation for the child, even in a split situation like ours. Sophia knows it, that you come first. You're my wife. I love her to death, she's my daughter. However, nothing comes between me and my wife. That's it, nothing, not parents, not children, nothing. Which a lot of people put their children first because they think that's the right thing to do, and I understand where they're coming from because, like I said, when Sophia's with us, she comes first. Like when it's her week with us, we put aside a lot of what we would do is just me and you to focus on her. So, I get that. Together, we put her first, never apart.

Nicole: Yeah, exactly, but you have to realize that foundationally, at the core, it's you and your husband first, or you and your wife first.

John: Exactly, and then your children. When the children leave the home, it's going to be the two of you. But more importantly, you're creating a model for your child, right? Because they need to put their spouse first. They need to not be so dependent on their parent as well. That's not who they're getting their relationship, love, romantic relationship from. Unfortunately, a lot of parents end up creating that kind of weird situation with their kids, and you should as a parent, you're not... Your child is your friend, you're not dumping your emotions and getting your emotional support from them. You're getting it from your spouse. And if your spouse is not treating you right, you don't talk to your kid about it because if you put the kid first, that's what you're going to do.

Nicole: Right, they're going to be the one consoling you, which is... You talk to your spouse about it, never...

John: Right, we'll have to get more into that, but one thing I did remember one thing.

Nicole: Okay, good. So when you're dating or you know, in a serious relationship before you get married, do think it's important for both people, if you guys are planning to have children, to look at that person and say, "Would I, if I had a kid right now with this person and they stayed exactly how they are, or my child turned out like they are or anything like that, right, would I be proud? Would I be happy? Like, would it be a harmonious sort of, you know, situation?" Which I'm not saying that things wouldn't happen, but you really have to do that as a man and a woman. You know, you have to look at the situation and be like, "Okay, if I literally had a carbon copy of this person, right, would I be proud?"

John: Right, or would I be afraid because now I have two of them coming at me, you know what I mean? Like, because that can happen.

Nicole: Well, it will happen. Children will inherit your negative character traits, not necessarily your positive ones. Your parents, you know, because whatever it is, they might be a different person, but the negative traits that you have will rub off. They're living in that environment. They're seeing that all the time. Like, it's just going to happen whether they want it to or not, and they're too young to fight it off, really, you know, a lot of the time. So, I would say when you're getting serious and you guys agreed you want to have kids before you get married, yeah, where you can still leave if the answer is no, and you finally realize like, "Oh, this isn't actually the relationship I thought it was." Yeah, ask yourself that question, even if you don't want to have kids, still, if this is not a... That even if you're not going to have kids, that you would want your kid to be like that, then you shouldn't be with that person.

John: I agree. I agree that you should ask it regardless, but it's very important if you're actually going to have a kid because that's another human being's life that you are going to greatly affect.

Nicole: Yeah, so that was one of the things that I wanted to say, and I think it's important. And I'm not trying to like break up relationships, but you have to like think of these sort of things before, especially before you get married, but really before you even get super serious into a relationship because it's just easier for everybody to, you know, step away from if early on enough you guys have figured these things out.

John: Yeah, and even if you decided that you're not going to have kids, look, unless you do the vasectomy or the, you know, and even then, you know, like whatever method that you're like, it could fail, and you might end up having a kid.

Nicole: That's true, so you better have asked that question, "Is this the person that I would want to have a kid with?" So, or that if you guys both decide you don't want to have kids and you did have a kid, that you know, you both would step up and, you know, do the right thing to be good parents for the child because, like you said, things happen. Like, it's very low probability, but you never know, and so, you know, it's important to really know who you're marrying and who you would have kids with.

John: Exactly, 100%. But yeah, I guess we should go into the actual parenting part.

Nicole: I think so. I think we covered the... I mean, how it changes the dynamic.

John: The dynamic, and putting... It's definitely harder to have the romance that you had before you had kids or, you know, in our instance, like the weeks where we can just be romantic and do all the things that we want to do. Like, it's hard to do that when you have a child because, and even too, like going on family vacations is a different dynamic because you have to do things.

John: That entertain your children, but you also try to fit in things that you as adults would like to do. So, it changes all of the things. Think of your honeymoon; you go on that's just straight romance. You guys do whatever you want; it's all about you guys. But then when you have kids, now you're probably going to Disneyland for vacation instead to entertain the children and give them those memories and all those things. So, it's like, you know, and now Christmas is like this magical thing for your children, and you're trying to make it special for them.

Nicole: It changes the whole thing, and it should. Obviously, if we could just be romantic and go on dates every single day, we would do it. But we do things differently on the weeks we have her because she deserves that. She deserves the attention, the love, the family time, and we give her that. But I think some people take it too far in putting the kids first before the spouse, and so the spouse's needs aren't being met, and the romance dies. Then the relationship gets rocky, and that's supposed to be the foundation. It causes a lot of problems.

John: Yeah, if that's the foundation, you've got to make sure you're prioritizing that, even if you're running kids to soccer and all kinds of stuff. You take time as a man, you make a date night for your wife, and you take her out. Don't just say, "Well, we could save money if we just..." No, you do need to do it. Get dressed up every once in a while, make her feel like a lady, like you're still courting her. You should always have that element of romance, even if you have kids. Don't neglect that because not only is that important in keeping the relationship alive, but you're also setting an example for the kids.

Nicole: Exactly. And that's also why you should kiss in front of the kids, be affectionate, and do nice things for each other. And also, you might have to make hard decisions, like even potentially moving. I wish that we lived closer to our families.

John: Sure, yeah. Because then, you know, if, God forbid, we needed to have a date night, they're going to stay with family rather than just a babysitter, and they get to spend more time with them. And a lot of people do move when they have kids to be closer to family for those reasons. It's good for the child, it's good for you guys. So, that is something that might potentially come up too. And that's also a change. We live in San Diego, and my family lives in Virginia, and your family lives in Florida. So, that would mean we would have to up and move to one of those places. We like San Diego, but some people might have to end up moving from a place that they like. Your dynamic's different. There are also things differently you do when you live somewhere when you're just a couple and versus when you have kids. You have to weigh a lot of things too.

Nicole: You might end up with a minivan or some car that holds more children because you're having more children. It's a lot of things that change in the dynamic, more than we could probably even just sit here and list out. But most people don't think about that ahead of time. It's important to realize that you can handle it. If your relationship is strong, you can handle anything. But know that those things are going to change. And then again, like I said, it's a decision. You don't have to make it; you don't have to have kids today. We have birth control, we have various methods. Your parents can put pressure on you, whatever, the church can, but you don't have to do that if you don't want to. If you do want to, don't feel obligated. That's horrible for everybody.

John: Right. It's the wrong reason to do it. This is a person that's going to grow up, this is a baby that's going to grow up into a person and go out into society. And like, little things that parents are like, "Oh, that's not going to matter, they don't really know." I think our generation, and maybe the one after ours, understands it more. I feel like people our age are trying to break a lot of generational cycles of things, of trauma. But like I said, there are still going to be certain things that a child's going to go through. Even if it's not something traumatic, Sophia's going to come to us one day; she might be like, "You guys didn't let me go to high school in Korea." She loves K-pop. And like, that's not a wrong thing, but that might cause her some sort of... "You guys, I can't believe the books you guys had me read. I didn't want to read the books when I was 12 and 13, but you made me read 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' and 'Psycho-Cybernetics' and 'The Power of Now.' And all of these books, and she's like, "You guys helped me so much. I'm so much more..." I'm sure she will, but she still might also be like, "Those were boring as hell to read." It's two sides of the coin. Yes, it's for her greater good, but I'm just saying that sometimes even things that you're doing for their greater good affect them in ways that they think is traumatizing, they think is bad, and they hold on to it, but it's really for their greater good, and they don't really realize it until they're 30.

Nicole: Well, unless they get the emotional maturity from the books you're having them read, so that they don't think that. But we'll see. But I mean, it's not going to be... Again, like I said, we don't yell at her; we could talk about the parenting. I mean, that's a good...

John: Yeah, we don't yell. We allow her to have a safe place to process her emotions, and she definitely struggled with expressing them, which kids do. It's totally normal. Everyone does. But being calm in upsetting situations, emotional situations, and not yelling and not saying calling names or saying mean things has demonstrated to her that you don't have to do that. It's a choice. You can still be hurt by something or upset about something and not take it out on other people. And she's learned that. Like, she's not perfect; she's a kid, and she's about to be a teenager, so that's a whole other thing. But she has really realized it, not because we've told her, but...

John: Because we embody that too. And the thing that people need to realize with kids is that, like you said, they mirror what they see. And that's what they really believe is what they see. So if you are like telling them, "Don't yell, don't take things out on people," but you're doing that, right? They're not going to listen totally if you're doing it to them.

Nicole: Right, exactly. Like, they're going to be like, "Okay, that's crap," and then do what you're doing. But, you know, the best mirror is your children. Like, they pick up on what you're doing.

John: And they idolize that in a way that you and they might not even realize. So, a very important thing for people is to be the type of person that's a role model for your child. Like, if you're sitting at home and you're talking crap about people, they're going to learn that they should talk crap about people. But if, you know, they see that you're like, "No, I'm not going to say things like that, and I'm not going to yell at people," they will idolize that behavior, and they will realize, "Okay, this is the right way to handle things."

Nicole: Right, exactly. And so, I think it's very important for people who are wanting to be parents to realize that you have to set the standard for your children. You have to be the role model. You have to do, and you have to be consistent because that's the thing. Kids will call you out on your stuff. But if you have a rule and you miss it one time, they'll know, and they'll be like, "Oh, it doesn't apply to me," right? Because they didn't do it that one time.

John: Remember that one time you did, right? Exactly. And they hold it against you. And so, consistency, you know, we obviously have certain rules. They're not crazy rules, but you got to have rules. And we don't, if she breaks the rules, we don't yell at her, we don't Stonewall her, not talk to her. We're always loving to her. That's another thing too, is like, no matter what, always make her feel loved. She gets the consequence, not the attitude, right? Not natural consequence because you want children to do the things because they're right and to avoid the consequences of their actions, not because you're going to be upset at them, right? Or they're afraid of you. And if you yell or get upset, or you treat them differently because they made a mistake and they're paying their own consequence for it, then what they learn is not to do the right thing but to people please because they don't want someone upset with them.

Nicole: Right, and so that's why it's important to just be, and then again, like you said, it's the example you're sending.

John: Right. It's like, what happens when things don't go my way? Well, I let other people know I can handle that. I don't have to get emotionally upset about it. It's your consequence, you know. Sophia sometimes has consequences, you know, and we don't, we never get upset about it. We're just like, and we don't treat her differently. We're not mad at her. We don't ignore her. We don't, I don't know, any other sort of thing. We just tell her like, "Hey, this is how it is. We, yeah, like I'm sorry you have that." And she's like, "Well, then can you take it away?" And we're like, "No, we can't." But we, I mean, maybe once or twice we've given her reprieve from a consequence, but that's because she showed the responsibility of the thing that she, you know, she made up with it with the responsibility. Because that's what we're teaching her a lot now. Like, she's actually really responsible.

Nicole: Oh yeah, super responsible. But, you know, she's getting to that age where she's going to be a teenager. She needs to learn the responsibility and things like that. And it's more so of just like waking up on time and doing things, you know, making sure she's ready for bed on time, things that she's going to need to learn in her daily life. Like, we need to set our kids up to be on their own and succeed. That's like, we're not throwing them out there right now, but you have to baby step based on where your child is at, of introducing things like responsibilities or lessons that they're going to need in the long run, based on their age, you know. And kids today too are growing up so fast. Like, I was not at the level that a lot of 12, 13-year-olds are at. Like, you know, when we were 12 or 13, we still did a lot of childish things.

John: Yeah, like, and we still enjoyed a lot of childish things. Like, you see kids today, talked about on the internet where there's like 8-year-olds going to buy retinol. And I'm like, "What?" Like, they're trying to grow up even faster than we are. Got to get rid of those wrinkles before they start.

Nicole: Yeah, like, it's just, it's gotten kind of crazy. Like, you know, they're growing up faster. So with the music and the videos and all the, yeah, they're exposed to all that stuff. And if they have unfiltered internet access, they have seen more kinds of porn than you've seen.

John: Yeah, so it doesn't matter what age they are. Even if they don't go to school, you know, like, there are kids that have that, and they're just going around telling everybody. And then you have to have those conversations. And that's the thing too, is like, once your child knows these things, you can't take it back. Because if you try to like hide it, like, "Oh, you can't do this," they're going to be more curious and more interested in it. You have to, you know, give them the appropriate information based on what they know and how old they are. And then also make them feel safe enough to come talk to you about any other questions they have about this stuff. Or like, and also make them realize that they don't have to do these things to fit in and be cool. And that, you know, they are safe at home, you know. Like, that's very important.

Nicole: I was actually reading a Brené Brown book, I think it's called "Braving the Wilderness." And the biggest thing that she said about parenting too is that you have to instill in your children that they can stand on their own, even when it's scary, even when they're all alone.

John: Yeah, because they're not all alone. Like, if you make them feel safe and accepted for who they are at home, they're never alone. And so, while it feels like they're on their own and braving the wilderness out in the real world, they still have the reason that they can stand strong in those situations and say no to peer pressure and all those things is because they have that knowledge of that, even if I'm out here all alone, when I go home, I'm not alone.

Nicole: Exactly, yeah. And so that is so important. And because so many kids fall into peer pressure and things like that for multiple reasons, but a lot of them stem from things going on at home, you know, or, you know, things that they're going through, wanting to fit in. And, you know, the best thing to teach your children is to be who they are and be kind, you know. That's another thing too about being a.

John: Being a role model to your children is important because there are so many bullies in the world. They go home and see that behavior at home, one way or another. It's important to teach children to be kind and kind to other people but also to stand up for themselves. There's a right way to do it and a wrong way. It's a lot to think about, more than we can even express here. Let's talk about some examples of how we parent so that people can get a good idea.

Nicole: Right. For example, we talked about responsibility. Giving her responsibility is how we do things. She gets the responsibility as much as we can give her. So, for instance, in our house, she needs to be up and ready for school at 7:40 a.m., and I will take her to school. It's up to her. She could get up at 7:30 and roll out of bed, brush her teeth, and go, or she can get up at 6:30. She's responsible for her own alarms. She had some problems with that before, so she asked for a manual alarm clock. We bought her one, and she has an Alexa. She's responsible for getting herself up. There's no "wake up, wake up," no knocking on the door again, "come on, you're going to be late for school." We don't do any of that, zero of it, which is great because it's not stressful for us at all. I don't know why parents do this all the time. It's so stupid. All you got to do is make a rule and a consequence for the rule. Now, the consequence is if she's not ready, if she's one minute late for school, being ready means your shoes are on, you got your backpack, all that stuff, then I don't take her to school. John takes her to school when he has the time to, after his meetings or whatever. When he takes her to school, now she's got to go up in front of the class and explain why she's late and apologize for wasting people's time.

John: And some people are like, "Oh, you're embarrassing her." Look, this is life. When you're late, you own the thing, and you don't get to make excuses for it. No one wants to hear your alarm didn't go off. In fact, one time her alarm didn't go off for whatever reason. We looked into it later, and we found out that it did go off. But regardless, I told her in the morning, sometimes that's what it's like as an adult. When you live and you go to a job, the alarm not going off, the power going out, or whatever it is, doesn't excuse you from the consequences. So, I'm not going to excuse you from the consequences either. You're going to still have to face those consequences. Maybe you should have had two alarms or maybe you should have had a backup alarm. Or maybe it's not worth it, and sometimes it's worth just having to suffer those consequences on the rare occasion that that happens. But right, we're teaching her to be responsible, and she's responsible for her own schedule. She's got dance classes, she's got other things on her schedule. Her bedtime is at 9:30. We've told her these, and she's also allowed to ask if she's confused. Don't think we're just like, "You need to know your responsibility, don't ask." If she knows, because it's been a pretty consistent schedule-wise, but if for some reason she's like, "Hey, what time do we need to leave for dance class or whatever?" we tell her. We don't step on her toes by being like, "Hey, you know, you got to leave in 10 minutes, why aren't you dressed?" If she's not dressed, then that is her responsibility, and she has to suffer the consequences.

Nicole: Before, because of that, she just lost track of time, she didn't know, and it's like when that happens, we're just in the car, we give her like 5 minutes waiting in the car for her, and then we come out and get her and say, "Okay," and then we take the phone. She's lost electronics for the day, whatever it is, and then we treat her just like normal. We're not upset at her. It's not, "Oh, I can't believe you're late again," or "Why can't you be more responsible?" She's got the consequence. That's what the purpose of the consequence is. If you add on top of it, then you're taking away from the consequence. She has to suffer from it. She's like, "Oh, that sucks," and we're like, "Yeah, that does suck." And that's why we're on the same side as her. That's why she's not going to rebel because we're on the side of her. Constantly, too, we're like, "Come on, Sophia, you got like two minutes left. Why are you sitting there?" We're like, "Come on, you can do it," but we don't outwardly say it because it's her responsibility. She appreciates that. You can tell. She takes pride in doing these things for herself. And you know, you can tell too that she values that she gets to make the choice. Especially at her age, it feels good for her to make the choice, even if sometimes the choice means that she gets the consequence. She got to make the choice, and instead of her being upset at us that we told her too late to get in the car or something.

John: Yep. We don't nag. No nagging zone. We don't need to, and nagging is just the stupidest thing you can do as a parent because it's stressful to you, and it teaches the kid the wrong thing. It teaches them that you're responsible, not them. Because if they're like, "Oh well, Mom's going to wake me up. Mom's going to nag me to make sure I'm not late," it's like, no. Sometimes she's missed.

John: We don't let her miss family commitments because she didn't pay attention. It's important for her to learn the value of commitment, which is crucial for children. She knows she's safe with us, even when she expresses her emotions inappropriately because she knows we won't yell at her. There might be consequences for disrespectful behavior, but it's more about setting boundaries first.

Nicole: Exactly. It's structured, but it's about learning in their own time. We've only had to enforce consequences a few times, and she understands the importance of taking responsibility for her actions. The consequences remain regardless of excuses.

John: And now, at almost 13, she's grown so much and is happier and more at peace. We don't deal with typical teenage issues like talking back or whining because of the way we've set up our parenting, with clear rules and consequences.

Nicole: We've also made it clear that making mistakes is normal, and we love her regardless. It's about creating a safe space and teaching through boundaries and consequences, not by ignoring their behavior.

John: Parents should never make their child feel responsible for their emotions, financial situation, or relationships. That's damaging. Children should not bear the weight of adult problems. They're not responsible for taking care of us in old age. Having children for that reason is fundamentally wrong. Children don't owe their parents for being raised; it's the parents' responsibility for choosing to bring a child into the world.

John: Clothes them and feeds them, that's what they're owed by you. You don't owe them anything in return for that. I think a lot of parents don't understand that relationship because of how many guys I have to coach.

John: I have to tell you, like, forget your parents. Stop. I don't care if your parents are upset. You're your own man. You live your own life. You don't live your life to please your parents. I don't care if your mom is going to be upset or your dad's going to be upset by your decisions. They should still love you regardless. They shouldn't be guilting you. The book "Boundaries" is really about children with their parents. You can't be the parent guilting your children, like why don't you visit or why don't you care more. That is all manipulation language, guilt manipulation language, and we've all been subject to it, but we know it's wrong.

John: It's very key if you have kids, it needs to be for the right reasons, and do not treat them like another adult. It's different to talk to them and give them responsibility to prepare them for being an adult, but do not turn them into your best friend, venting to them, telling them things they should not know. Even when you and I are having certain conversations about our relationship, we don't have them in front of her. It's not because they get bad and we don't want her to see us arguing. We definitely had disagreements in front of her, so she's seen that and knows how it looks. But at the same time, if she overhears something that bugged me, I will never live that one down. If she overhears us having a certain type of conversation about our relationship that she doesn't fully understand because we don't tell her all the things about our relationship because she doesn't need to know that, then she's going to think, "Oh, what if they get a divorce?" or "They're upset with each other and they don't really love each other." She's going to think all these things because she doesn't know the full picture.

John: But if we have a sabotage incident that she's sitting there with us and we're talking it out, we're not going to go upstairs and talk about it like we can talk about it in the correct way, still calm, not yelling at each other, so she's still seeing that modeled to her. But we're not putting unnecessary stress and anxiety onto her of her not knowing how stable our relationship is or anything like that just because she's hearing one conversation that she didn't hear the rest of. You need to make sure that you're saying appropriate things in front of your children and not doing those things to them, and that you always come as a unified front. There's no in-between you because the kid will sneak into that in-between too and play both sides.

Nicole: Sophia knows if I said it, it's like you said it. There's no difference. There's no going to you. I'm never going to, if you said something, even if you gave her the wrong instruction or whatever, I'm going to back you 100% and be like, "Nope, that's how it is," because she's never going to see, like, me and you might have a talk afterwards, and we can discuss it, but as far as her seeing it, we're a unified front. If Dad said it, if Mom said it, it doesn't matter. That's still, might even be like, "Well, mom said it's fine, and you didn't say it's fine," but that's what they heard in their mind. Be careful of that, but you know, that's normal kid behavior.

John: You're right, you have to be unified because a kid will sneak into any cracks that they can. That's just how kids are. They'll drive a wedge between you, not because they want to drive a wedge between but because they want to get what they want. If they can do it, and if you let it drive a wedge between you, it will happen. So, you got to stand behind your spouse 100%, whatever they say, even if they say the most ridiculous, you're like, "Nope, that's how it is." You're like, "Yep." You can have a discussion later, right, because you're back, but that's how you should be. You should be backing your spouse all the time anyway, in public, to anyone, whatever, because regardless of it, because you can have a discussion between yourselves, but you should be presenting as a unified front.

John: So true. Alright, I think that's our thing for the week. Gosh, there's really nothing really for this. I know, been like sick. The only thing I guess I could say is like, the other night you were reading, and I came downstairs, and I was done with work, and I was a little upset because you're reading your book. So, I went back upstairs and worked, but then I just came down later when you're in, and I just asked to speak to you privately, and we just, and I just said, "Hey, you know, this hurt me because when I finished work, I work really hard and all these things, and I would like to be greeted."

Nicole: And you handled that perfectly. You apologized to a huge degree. Well, I did greet you, but I think it was more that you felt like I wasn't looking forward to spending time with you because I was reading, and I didn't want you to feel that way. That wasn't my intention, and so I really cared that you felt that way, and I'm glad that you brought it up to me because I don't want you to feel like it wasn't my intention. I wasn't trying to be malicious, but I understand where you're coming from. I would feel the same way, that if I was working all day and came down and you were like, "Wait, can I continue to read this?" I'd be bummed out, like, "Well, he doesn't want to hang out with me."

John: The only reason why I highlight it is because there are two things I think the value from this. One, and this is some of the things that I've learned too, is like, I gave you the benefit of the doubt from the beginning. It did affect me, but I didn't think that it was malicious, right? And so, I treated you, and I hope you felt that way, that when I went to talk to you, I didn't treat you in a way that was offensive or defensive. I was bringing it to your attention.

John: You know, like I said, I didn't ignore the thing. I brought it to your attention, and I felt like I brought it to you in a way that we handled it very well. That's how you should handle things, in that way where it's okay because a lot of times, I'm sure I'm going to do things that, just out of not thinking about it, is going to affect you somehow. And then, you know, if we address our problems just like that, not believing there's malicious intent on the other side and just bringing it to the other person's attention, just being vulnerable and saying how it actually made you feel, and then talking it out because I don't want you to feel that way. So, it's like, now I'll be more aware of, in that instance, to not come across in that way because I don't want you to feel that way.

Nicole: No, yeah, and I know that. And like I said, I gave you the benefit of the doubt from the beginning. But I think it's important to deal with things that way. And then, like I said, you weren't defensive at all about it. You were just apologetic and made sure you won't do this in the future. It was just handled very well. So, yeah, gold star for you. But I would say that even six months or a year ago, neither of us would have handled that situation like that. I mean, we've never been the type to yell and call each other names. We've always had that level of emotional maturity, but we both would have been more defensive. So, we're growing here with you guys. That's why we're doing this, and it's important.

John: Right, so make sure that, right now, if you've listened to this long, you go to like and subscribe on iTunes specifically, and leave a review with some words in it. Because people are still hating on us, I guess. Like, we still got like a 4.2 something like that. We got to get that up to at least a 4.8. So, leave us a nice Apple review on iTunes. Thank you, Kay, for being our first review with words and always supporting us. And King and Michelle, they also have a great podcast. See, if you leave a review, we'll say your name and say good things about you. So, alright, next time.