John [00:00:00]: Pay attention to Toto when you take her outside, because sometimes after you get up, I lay there and I'm like, what if Toto gets picked up by a bird because John's not watching her outside? There are. There's those ravens that were pecking that bunny's head.

Nicole [00:00:13]: Yeah, they can't pick up Toto.

John [00:00:15]: They could pick up Toto.

Nicole [00:00:16]: No, they can't. They can't pick up Toto. It would have to be like an eagle.

John [00:00:20]: I've seen some hawks, though, around.

Nicole [00:00:21]: Yeah, some. Even. A hawk would have to be like a.

John [00:00:25]: Even if a hawk tried to pick up Toto, it would gut her. Like those bunny rabbits.

Nicole [00:00:30]: But there's no. There's no hawks at that. That early in the morning. Should you forgive and forget? It's a big question that a lot of people ask about. They say, I'm never going to forget it. I'll forgive, but I won't forget it. Is that right or is that wrong? That's what we're going to be talking about in this episode. The Perfect. We discover through our flaws. We complete each other. Better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. Welcome to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

John [00:01:12]: That's right.

Nicole [00:01:13]: So, yeah, so I don't know. Before we get into the. The. The meat, anything on your mind? Anything brewing besides the leaving the dog outside? I know that's still important. Okay, like, which tab is that one?

John [00:01:30]: It's still there. I'm like, I need to get one of those pokey little suits. We didn't mention it in the last episode, but our dog is five pounds, looks like a bunny rabbit, probably smaller than a bunny rabbit. And so she is a type of dog that would potentially be a target for birds of prey. And John's like, it's fine. I'm like, look, you can leave her outside. If I put a pokey suit on them, they make a pokey suit. But I think it's like, 50 bucks.

Nicole [00:02:00]: Yeah, but what if it kills some endangered bird?

John [00:02:02]: And then we're like, if an endangered bird's trying to kill our dog, yeah.

Nicole [00:02:07]: We'Ll still get fine.

John [00:02:08]: It's nature.

Nicole [00:02:08]: It's booby trap.

John [00:02:10]: It's nature.

Nicole [00:02:10]: Look, there's booby trap laws.

John [00:02:12]: I mean, I don't know.

Nicole [00:02:13]: That'd be a weird. I would like to go to court for that, though. It's like you killed a bald eagle. Like, no, no, no, I didn't kill A bald eagle. You put a spiky suit on a dog? Yeah, the bald eagle chose to. To kill itself.

John [00:02:28]: Right, right.

Nicole [00:02:29]: Like, but you booby trapped it. No, no, no, no. The spiky suit is just.

John [00:02:33]: Do you feel like this is not legitimate? Because I would totally be there representing myself, saying all those things.

Nicole [00:02:37]: I'd be like, so now I'm actually. Yeah, I think we would win that.

John [00:02:41]: That game. And I don't think that there's any coyotes around anymore. They also scare me.

Nicole [00:02:48]: Yeah, they coyote me.

John [00:02:49]: We had a few run ins with our dog, like, walking up to our fence, and then a coyote came up right at the fence where she was, and we were like, what is that a dog? And it was a coyote, but we.

Nicole [00:03:00]: Were also high and. And so we looked at the. And we're like, what is that? Is that a dog over there?

John [00:03:10]: Like, it did look like a dog.

Nicole [00:03:12]: Yeah, it was like, they do look like a mangy dog. Like a dog hasn't eaten for a couple of weeks.

John [00:03:17]: Some dogs are mangy.

Nicole [00:03:18]: Yeah.

John [00:03:18]: But maybe a dog got loose and he had to, like, fight for his life out there with the coyotes.

Nicole [00:03:24]: It was just the coyotes.

John [00:03:25]: Yeah. Thank God the coyote didn't try to jump the fence.

Nicole [00:03:28]: Now that we don't have coyotes. We have.

John [00:03:30]: But now I am still thinking about the pokey suit. So stay tuned. Stay tuned next week to see if I bought one or not.

Nicole [00:03:38]: What other drama was. Was going on? Do we have anything else that was drama with the. We haven't had a lot of. Of. Of drama on the episodes or on the. The TikTok.

John [00:03:49]: We went on a few podcasts.

Nicole [00:03:51]: Oh, yeah, we did. Yep. That was cool.

John [00:03:53]: We went on one called Witness podcast.

Nicole [00:03:56]: Yeah.

John [00:03:56]: So check that out. Look that up. And then we went on book 101.

Nicole [00:04:00]: I was gonna say you can't forget book 101 if you couldn't remember the name of the podcast, you know?

John [00:04:06]: No, I could not forget book 101, but he talked us into writing a book, so we'll let you guys know when that.

Nicole [00:04:11]: Yeah, that. But guess what the name of the book will be if we follow Daniel's.

John [00:04:18]: Book or Better than Perfect Podcast Volume one.

Nicole [00:04:21]: That's right, Volume one.

John [00:04:23]: Volume one. That just means there could be a lot of volumes.

Nicole [00:04:27]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

John [00:04:29]: But question, because you got us some merch one time. If you guys watching this are interested in merch, because Daniel also mentioned.

Nicole [00:04:37]: Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure.

John [00:04:39]: Let us know in the comments. Or.

Nicole [00:04:41]: And what kind of merch?

John [00:04:42]: Yeah, what would you guys want like.

Nicole [00:04:44]: Do you want socks that say better than purpose?

John [00:04:47]: It's those socks that have, like, the hands that, like, hold hands.

Nicole [00:04:52]: Oh, do you want to have better than perfect socks? See what I did there? No, Better than perfect socks. Like, socks. Like, it's almost like sex.

John [00:05:10]: I didn't know if you were going to say sex or stocks socks. I'm like, I have no idea what's going on. Yeah, I thought you were gonna explain a little bit more. That's why I paused for her beanie, her dramatic effect.

Nicole [00:05:23]: Or you want better than perfect nipple rings? What do you want?

John [00:05:25]: What is wrong with you?

Nicole [00:05:30]: Place your order. You know, we gotta. We gotta. We gotta come up with some better merchandise for ourselves, though, because we. I. I ordered the stuff, and we're not gonna wear it because it just. It doesn't look so good.

John [00:05:41]: But, you know, I mean, the tank top was cute. It's just casual. Yeah, I think, like, a good polo would be.

Nicole [00:05:46]: I like.

John [00:05:49]: It still has to look classy. And for me, it's kind of hard to wear, like, something like this and have, like, the logo.

Nicole [00:05:53]: Yeah, that's.

John [00:05:54]: Yeah, we have stickers and things like that. I think our stickers need to be a little bit bigger, though.

Nicole [00:05:59]: Yeah. And car decals. We had that. We did that. That's cool. We have it on our car.

John [00:06:03]: So I'm curious to see how many people come from the car. I think none.

Nicole [00:06:08]: If you. If you came here today because you saw our car driving around and you're like, better than per. Yeah. Then just. You absolute have to email us and let us know because. Yeah, we'll just invite you on the podcast. You can be here. We won't even embarrass you. We won't even make you.

John [00:06:25]: What do you mean? We won't even embarrass you? You act like we embarrassed you.

Nicole [00:06:27]: Like, we won't do, like, coaching couples, like, make you dive into your relationship.

John [00:06:32]: What are we going to talk about then?

Nicole [00:06:33]: Just about driving. Something like that. I don't know.

John [00:06:38]: Driving in San Diego. John's lost it. We need to get into that. We need to get into the topic.

Nicole [00:06:43]: So the topic today, it's one I've been wanting to do for a while, which is forgiveness. And I want to talk about one. Why it's so important to forgive. What it actually means to forgive. Right. And then. And then. Yeah, and the forgiveness, the forgetting that. That forgiven. Like defining what that is. Right. Because, you know, just to. To spoil it already. To just give it right at. At once, which is that True forgiveness is forgetting. People don't like to hear that, but forgetting is part of it. Because if I, you know, and here's. We'll just dive right into it, which is that if you have a debt, right, if you owe the bank some money, right? Let's say you owe some money on your car or whatever it is, and the bank's like, oh, we forgive your debt, which is an actual legal term, right? Then it's as if it never happened, right? You don't want later on for the bank to be like, yeah, remember that car payment that we were like, we forgive that debt. Well, if you want to give us some money or, yeah, you're such a bad person, they're not going to come after you for the debt anymore because it's forgiven. You're like, I don't got any money now. You forgave the debt. So that's the whole concept of forgiveness, is that it's as if it never happened in the first place. And that's a hard concept for people to understand, especially in relationships, especially when they've been hurt. But I think it's so critical to act as if to operate as if it's never happened. And I think where people get confused is they're like, well, I have to remember it, but you don't have to remember it like, like, it. It can. You. You can gain some understanding and you don't even have to be with the person, but you can still forgive, right? It's just like if I touch a hot stove, right? I don't have to remember. I don't have to go through my life being like, oh, don't touch hot stoves, right? John, don't freaking forget to touch hot. Not touch hot stoves. It burns, right? Like, I don't have to remind myself every day. I know it. You can know a thing without reminding yourself, without remembering a thing, right? You can. You know. You know what I'm saying? Like, so, so that's the thing about it is, like, sometimes we're walking through our life and we think we've forgiven someone, but we're still holding onto the harms, right? And I've had this conversation with a lot of people, with a lot of men just in coaching. And we've had it with our daughter, too, and had to say, like, look, no, no, no. When you forgive someone, it means that you no longer. You have to give up the right to be harmed. You have to say that. Harmony, I give it up 100%, and I think it's super, super Important in relationships, because it destroys relationships, because it is bitterness, because holding on and not truly forgiving and truly letting go. And there's a process. And we'll talk more about how do you help someone to forgive? Because I think in many cases someone could forgive, but it still needs their hurt and stuff needs to be worked through as well. But. But, yeah, but I think that this whole idea of, like, how do you actually forgive? People take it too lightly, and they don't understand what it really, really means to truly forgive, to erase it as if it's never happened, and not to count it against someone at all. And that's what the true forgiveness means.

John [00:10:13]: Well, I feel like a lot of people don't do that because they don't want to give up the hurt. They don't. They feel like it validates their feelings. They feel like they. If something bad happens again, they want to be able to use that to be like, see, I told you this was going to happen again. Or, see, you already did this. And those sort of things. And so those emotions. And again, going back to the last episode as well, too, it ties in is the thinking. The constantly thinking about it.

Nicole [00:10:46]: Right.

John [00:10:48]: Ends up causing more emotional pain and turmoil and in turn then keeps bringing the same thing up over and over again. So then they're reliving it. Granted, it is not the exact same scenario because every time you bring it up, it's not gonna be remembered exactly how it was the last time. But they feel like if they can keep a hold on that, then it validates why they act the way that they do. Their pain, their, you know, anger, whatever it is, their negative emotions.

Nicole [00:11:24]: Right.

John [00:11:24]: That it validates that. That they have a reason to feel those things and to let those things out on other people, especially the person that did it to them. And so I think it's important to start with why so many people have a hard time really, like, forgiving and forgetting is because they feel like if they forget it.

Nicole [00:11:43]: Yeah.

John [00:11:44]: And like you said, sometimes people say they forgive, but they don't forget.

Nicole [00:11:47]: Right.

John [00:11:47]: Is that if they forget it, then they don't have that evidence to support why they're doing what they're doing, why they feel the way that they feel. And I was this person as well, too.

Nicole [00:11:59]: Yeah.

John [00:12:00]: And when we went through a lot of things early on in our relationship, even at one point, my dad was like, you have to let this go. Like, once you deal with it, you have to let this go. Because he knew that I would hold onto stuff and hold a grudge and things like that. And I'm not saying that if somebody harmed you that you should not still forgive and forget. You can do that and then still not be around that person. But that's another layer that we'll get into, I'm sure, when we get to that point. But I've been the person that wants to hold on to the things because it justifies why I feel the way I feel or why I'm still holding on to this trauma or why I'm still, you know, keeping that inside so that in case it happened again, you know, I would know, or I would, you know, be able to use that to back up my point of view. When, like you said, even if you forgive and forget, it's not like that thing goes away. It's almost better to say forgive and let go because, yeah, yeah, you can't force your brain. It's kind of like, don't think about an elephant right now. You know, like, that thing is still there. It still happened to you. It's still part of, like, your memories.

Nicole [00:13:19]: Right.

John [00:13:19]: And I feel like when you say forget, people might feel bad if they do think about it.

Nicole [00:13:24]: Right.

John [00:13:25]: But it's more of letting it go and not not allowing it to pop up in your head and stew and cause the negative emotions again or like to be used against somebody and things like that. And the thing that people hold on to is so that they can use it against somebody or use it to validate the things that they're doing in response to that thing.

Nicole [00:13:47]: And the way that you can test this is that if you're still holding on to the right to be hurt or harm is that if someone asks you, have you been harmed? And you still say yes, when you've truly forgiven and forgotten, or in this case, I do agree with you, let go. But I use the word forget because people say, I'll forgive, but I won't forget. But you're letting go of the. You're no longer saying, I've been harmed. When someone says, did this person harm you? If you've forgiven them truly, you say, no, they didn't harm me. There's nothing that they have done to me. It hurts to say those words when you've been hurt because you haven't forgiven. But when you truly do forgive, then those words don't hurt anymore because there's no need to count the harm or to measure it or you don't even see it as a harm anymore. And that's the thing that is tough for people to do because we've all been there, and it's not just you. And to be frankly, honest, would it came to a point where it were in our relationship, where at some point, because I did do wrong things right, that were, you know, but where it came to a point where I had to even be like, look, if you can't forget this, if you can't let go of this, like, I love you. I want to be with you, but I can't. We can't move past this. We can't move past the relationship. And it was a fork in the road for the relationship, and I'm thankful that you made that choice that day. But I got to a point where I was like, you know, like, me mentally. I don't even think we even really talked about it too much after that. But I was like, I really want Nicole, and I really want this life, and I really want to, you know, I love her more than anything in the whole world. But I also know that if this cannot be let go of that we cannot succeed, we cannot grow. And so I had, like, at that moment, I was like, I have to put it to the choice of, like, of this or that, you know, if we're gonna have this future or not.

John [00:15:54]: And the only reason that in that moment I agreed and did let it go is because you finally did do it the right way. Because in the beginning, you didn't do it the right way.

Nicole [00:16:07]: Right. I didn't.

John [00:16:07]: You did not validate the things that you've done. You told me to just get over it, which. That's not a way to get somebody to do that.

Nicole [00:16:15]: Exactly.

John [00:16:16]: But by the time that you had that conversation with me and you said what you said.

Nicole [00:16:22]: Yeah.

John [00:16:22]: I realized within myself that I. You're right. I can't keep holding this against you. And even though it did still hurt, like, it still bothered me, I could also realize, though, that some of that as well was me holding onto it and hurting myself by holding onto it. But I do think it's important, because I don't think I could have gotten over it if you had never gotten to a point where you actually owned up to what you did and validated that within me. Because there was a time where you didn't do that, and I felt very dismissed. And you need to just get over it. And no one is going to forgive and let go when the person who harmed them does not acknowledge that and, like, really acknowledge that.

Nicole [00:17:15]: And I think that I would. I make this distinction because you're absolutely right in it. In order to maintain A relationship, especially an intimate relationship with the person. Those things have to be addressed. But I would also say that a person can forgive and forget without having anything that the other person does at all. And that's on us to do.

John [00:17:40]: However I think they can if they're not still with that person.

Nicole [00:17:43]: Right, exactly. That's what I said. Like, in a relationship, right? Like, it's going to. Like, you. You would have to choose to not be with that person.

John [00:17:51]: Right.

Nicole [00:17:52]: At that. At that. At that point. Because, you know, like, it depends on the degree. Right. On the degree of the. Of the. Of the harm. Right? Because, you know, as I'm saying this, I'm immediately thinking in my head that it's like, okay, well, you know, she. She was mean to me. She said this to me, and I can't continue this relationship until she acknowledges it and validates my. Like, no, you can still forgive and forget there. Like, it's good if. If you have a talk and that. But you can't make that a condition and be like, oh, I can't be with. But if it's a severe breach of trust and harm, then yeah, then that is the case. But it is on us. Right? And that kind of brings one of the topics I want to talk about this, which is that I encounter many times, and just. You've seen it because I did a talk at a conference, right. And you were in the audience, and I said, how many of you hold up your hand if you're have something that you're not forgiving someone? Right. And how many people raise their hand? Like, almost a lot. And I was like, why? What good is it doing to you? Right? And. And a lot of people are like, well, I. As soon as they apologize, as soon as they acknowledge, then I can forgive. Yeah, right. And some people are like, it doesn't matter what they do. I'm never going to forgive them.

John [00:19:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:19:15]: And the. The thing about that is that unforgiveness only harms you as a person. It does not harm the other person. It is like drinking poison to, like, kill someone else. Like, you're drinking that poison every day, and you're living with that. And so the biggest thing about forgiveness is it's not for them, it's for you. Because you have trapped yourself in a prison. When you're holding resentment, anger, holding onto the hurt, you're allowing that hurt to hurt you more and over every single day instead of the one time that it happened. And so even if the person's not there, even if they're not sorry. Right. And a lot of times this applies to people that aren't there, like your parents that are dead, whatever. Or, you know, you know, relatives, whatever. You know, you might not have the opportunity to even talk to them. You still have to forgive, you know, even if they're not there, if you're not in a relationship with them, even if they're not sorry, even if they're willfully even just would hurt you again, you can still forgive them. And it's still vital that you do forgive them and that you do forget that harm. Because it's vital to you.

John [00:20:21]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:20:21]: You know, I mean, and that eats away at you. Yeah.

John [00:20:24]: Inside of you. Because. Yeah. Like you mentioned, like, every time you think of that thing.

Nicole [00:20:30]: Right.

John [00:20:30]: You're feeling those emotions all over again, and they haven't even happened. And you think. Because I've been there, you think that the more you bring it up and you feel that pain again, it's preparing you to never feel that again. It's preparing to protect you so that it won't ever happen again. But that's not the reality. Like you said, the reality is it's actually hurting you every time you bring it up.

Nicole [00:20:53]: Yeah.

John [00:20:54]: And we're not saying that when something happens, you can't have the emotions, you can't talk it out, and you can't feel the pain or whatever that you're feeling.

Nicole [00:21:03]: Right.

John [00:21:04]: But the more you hold on to that and continue to relive that over and over and over again.

Nicole [00:21:09]: Right.

John [00:21:10]: The more that it's poisoning you.

Nicole [00:21:12]: Yeah. It's a second arrow.

John [00:21:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:21:14]: Is what it is. Right. If you're not familiar with the. You tell the story of the.

John [00:21:19]: You're gonna make me tell it.

Nicole [00:21:20]: Yeah. Cause you're more. You had read it more recently.

John [00:21:23]: You know how my brain likes it's.

Nicole [00:21:25]: So funny because you read it in one place and I read it in one place. Totally different books. Yes. But go ahead. Yeah.

John [00:21:33]: I am gonna butcher this.

Nicole [00:21:34]: Okay.

John [00:21:35]: Because my brain, you know, has got that out of there. But basically, what John's saying is, you get hit with the first arrow, there's two arrows. You get hit with the first arrow, and you feel the pain, and you realize, hey, I just got hit with an arrow. But then every time that you think about getting hit with the arrow, you've gotten shot with another arrow. You've caused another pain. And that pain is the thinking about it. You're harming yourself.

Nicole [00:22:02]: That's the arrow that I.

John [00:22:03]: Instead of being shot once, now you've shot yourself again.

Nicole [00:22:07]: And the first arrow you couldn't avoid.

John [00:22:09]: Right. It was gonna happen.

Nicole [00:22:10]: Right. But the second arrow was a choice. You stood there and got shot again. You shot yourself the second time. Right. Even. Even. There's a good Marcus Aurelius quote. It's somewhat related, but he says how more grievous are the. Oh, shoot. The. Our brains aren't the. Essentially, I'll butcher it, but the actions of our anger rather than the causes of them. Right. So it's like, how much worse is it how we respond to things than the actual thing itself? And how many times have we been in a relationship, us not excluded, but anyone. And the thing that you and the little thing that started the fight is so little compared to what you've done because you got upset and got at each other's throats, and now you've caused real harm. The little thing was not even any harmful at all.

John [00:23:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:07]: It was a little minor inconvenience, a little bit of a hurt or a little bit of pain. But now you've caused massive pain and hurt because you. You've, you know, your reaction. Yeah, but, but, yeah, but, but, but I do think that, you know, like I said, it is a hard thing for people to forgive.

John [00:23:23]: It is, but it is necessary. Like you said, it's like. And anybody can really see what we're talking about because there does come a point where you're still stewing on something and the person that you're upset with has moved on. They're not affected. And you know that. You can see that. Like, I mean, you don't know for sure, but you can tell that it's not living in their head what they.

Nicole [00:23:47]: Did, or they're careless and they didn't even care in the first place, and they don't care now, and they're never going to care.

John [00:23:52]: And the more you think about it isn't going to cause them to care, isn't going to make them sorry, isn't going to give you the thing that you want, like an apology or whatever it is.

Nicole [00:24:02]: Yeah.

John [00:24:03]: So the sooner that you let it go.

Nicole [00:24:06]: Yeah.

John [00:24:07]: And really with any sort of thing, it's feel the emotion, feel the thing, then let it go. We're not saying you get hurt and you're like, it's fine, I'm fine, you know, everything fine. I forgive you. Like, you're allowed to feel the way you feel about it. You're allowed to have that conversation.

Nicole [00:24:23]: Right.

John [00:24:24]: But after you're done with the conversation, you need to let it go, and you need to not Bring it up in your mind constantly, because it will upset you. Even if you really have talked it all the way out and you feel like you feel better about the situation, you're still choosing to be with that person. If it's something that the person that you're with did, you can't keep allowing that to come back. Because even if you feel like, okay, I'm good, I'm in a good place, we're in a good place, you will get yourself back in a bad place.

Nicole [00:24:59]: Exactly. Yeah.

John [00:25:00]: So you have to truly let that go. It's not saying that like you said, it is forget. But I also don't want people to be beat themselves up if they can't just totally erase it out of their mind. Because then they might feel bad if they do think about it once or twice, and that's normal.

Nicole [00:25:17]: But then you have to let it go.

John [00:25:19]: You have the choice, though, that even if it pops up in your head, to let it go again.

Nicole [00:25:24]: Exactly.

John [00:25:25]: And to not start thinking about it. Like we said in the other episode too, thinking is a root cause of suffering. And even if you have it pop up in your head, don't think about it. Let it go, Let it go again.

Nicole [00:25:39]: Right? Yeah. And we don't even want what we think what we want. Right. Because a lot of times, hopefully it's not in your intimate relationship, but for people that we have unforgiveness for, we want revenge, we want them to pay. And I used to ask this question a lot. I don't ask this question that much anymore, but I used to always say, do you want justice or mercy? Which do you want? Right. And a lot of times people like, I want justice and like, okay, when it's. But when it's turned around, because it goes both ways. So if you want justice now, then you can have justice. But then when it's turned around, you're going to get justice. Do you want that? Do you want to. And then. And then with that comes along with now, if you're going to make other people pay for their sins, all the sins you've done in your life, you now have to pay the price. So I'll ask you again, do you want justice or mercy? Right. Most people want mercy. They want mercy for themselves. So if you want mercy for yourself, it's the same same that you judge others by, you'll be judged by. So if you want mercy for yourself, then you have to show mercy to other people. Right. It's like we don't really want it. And then even if you say you want justice, okay, then my next statement is always, okay, well, here's your knife. Go ahead and take your pound of flesh. Go ahead and cut it. Where do you want to cut it from? You're going to take that knife, you're going to cut someone's flesh? I don't think so. You don't want that. You think you want that. You don't want to cut cause harm to someone else. It doesn't fix your harm. You.

John [00:27:06]: You just harms you more.

Nicole [00:27:08]: You just be in a bloody mess or, you know, fight fire with fire.

John [00:27:10]: But everyone's on fire.

Nicole [00:27:11]: Yeah, but, but the point is, like, if you had the knife, you know, and I like to use that as a visual image, like, you would not want to cut the pound of flesh from someone, right? But. But we think that we do, you know, that you wouldn't want to be in that position. You wouldn't want to actually harm someone no matter how much they harmed you. You know, I would hope that you still would not want to take a knife to their flesh and take what is owed to you, right? Because it doesn't. It doesn't solve anything. And so that's like, when you really, really understand this at a. At a deep level, the only answer is forgiveness, then you realize that this is what you're. Because. Because the thing that you're holding onto is this sense of justice. And like I said, it's like, you don't want justice dealt to you, so don't deal it to other people. So if you see that, that helps you to let go of it. Because then you're like, okay, yeah, mercy is the thing that I want. So mercy is the thing that I'll give. And so I have done wrong in my life, and so I don't want to be held by, you know, be judged. And the other thing to think about too is it's like, you know, especially in a relationship is that we've all made mistakes in life, right? How many of us want to be beat up by our mistakes over and over again? We don't. We want. We want. You know, what we want is for someone to forgive us and to let it go and to not remember it and to not to hold it against us, not to remind us we want to be able to become the new person that we want to become, right? We don't want to be. So then why do we do it to other people? You know what I'm saying? It's like it goes both ways. And so. But it's Important to you know, because you'll never. The thing that will trap you here on this earth more than anything else is unforgiveness.

John [00:28:51]: That's true. Well, and that's like you said, what you said to me, I was like, do have to work through this, whether it's with you or with someone else. And I'd rather it be with you.

Nicole [00:29:01]: Yeah.

John [00:29:02]: And you do feel different. And it does feel better. Like, I feel like a lot of people have these things that live in their head. They haven't forgiven and they haven't forgotten and they don't even realize what it's doing to them. They don't even realize the turmoil it's creating inside of them. They don't realize the negative feelings and emotions that it is bringing up in them. Because even if they're not constantly thinking about it, but it still lives in there. It's still spewing out negativity. And so it is a valuable lesson to learn. And if you don't learn it, you will just be miserable because people, like I said, people will have moved on. Like you said, the people who have hurt you, they don't care. They're not thinking about it. They're not allowing them it to affect them. It's only affecting you.

Nicole [00:29:58]: Yeah. You're walking around every day with this backpack full of bricks and you're like, why is it so heavy? Why is it so, you know, why are other people don't have this load? And it's because. What's in that backpack? Oh, it's a brick. This brick says Joe on it and this one says Jim on it. And this is like, this is when this person did this to me. And you're holding on to all those things.

John [00:30:18]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:19]: And all you gotta do is let them go and you're burden will be lighter.

John [00:30:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:30:23]: But you're. It's not hurting anyone else by you carrying all those bricks around. It's not doing you any good. Like. Like you're carrying the stuff around in life that's not doing you any good. It's only harming you. It's only making your. Your life heavier. And as soon as you let that go, I mean, forgiveness is the most freeing thing that you'll ever do for someone else, but more importantly, the most freeing thing you'll ever do for yourself. Because once you choose to forgive and you start to say, nobody has harmed me ever in my entire life. That's the thing. Nobody has ever harmed me in my entire life. And you let it all go, it'll Be the freest day of your entire life because you will experience that freedom. You'll see what that unforgiveness is doing to hold you down.

John [00:31:05]: Right. That person still has power over you. You don't think that they do. You think it's your choice, but they still have power over you. Only you should have the power over yourself. And like you said, if you have been through things, but you're like, no one has harmed me. You're a clean slate. No one has power over you. No one has their claws still sunk in you. But the more that you hold onto those things, the more power you give to those people that you don't even want in your life most of the time anyway. Or you do want them in your life, but you want to get rid of these things that are causing you to feel all this negativity towards the person that you don't want to. If you genuinely believe that the person who harmed you would not do that again and is sorry.

Nicole [00:31:50]: Right.

John [00:31:51]: Why are you still holding on to it?

Nicole [00:31:52]: And even if you don't. Right.

John [00:31:54]: Well, no, I just mean in the instance where if you're with. I already talked about when you're not with somebody.

Nicole [00:31:58]: Yeah. When you're with someone.

John [00:31:59]: But I think it's important to talk about when you are with somebody, because people don't realize too, that they're actually sweeping that under their rug and it will never come out. Because it's on your side of the rug.

Nicole [00:32:13]: Exactly. Yeah. No, they're not even aware of it.

John [00:32:15]: A lot of times your partner can try to sweep under the rug, but he can't get to your side and it's still there. And you're gonna pile it up. The more that you think about it. And only you can get rid of that underneath of the rug on your side. It's not something that your partner can do.

Nicole [00:32:32]: Again, they're not even aware. They don't have any reach into it. And that's what, like when we talked about. We did that episode on doing the work. That's. Doing the work is like bringing the things to the surface so that you don't hold onto. And you've got the choice. You can either address it or you can just let it go. But you can't. You have to choose one of those. If you feel like you can't let it go, then you need to address it. Yeah, right. And if you address it, then that has to be enough. That has to be it. You know, and it's like. But I think there's A part of it, of also, you know, helping your partner to be able to let go of the thing.

John [00:33:09]: Right.

Nicole [00:33:09]: The forgiveness is something they have to do on their own. I'm 100% regardless of, of, of whether the other person sorry or not, they, they have to choose forgiveness. That has to be chosen. But if you harm someone, then. And this was a lesson that I had to learn is that. And this is something I teach guys all the time, especially in relation to women, because it's, it's mostly like that because again, our one track mind, we're ready to move on and move on to the next thing is that you have to hold space. What that means is to, to say, okay, I want to hear your experience. I want you to tell me what you went through and I want to hear it in detail and I want to just listen and empathize with it and ask questions and so that I can understand it. I want to understand what pain I put you through. I want to feel it and to sit there and do that and not justify and not defend because there's reasons. Everyone does things for a reason. And we know. And that's where I got trapped is I was like, you would try to tell me how I hurt you and I would say, well, yeah, but this is why I didn't mean to hurt you. But as soon as I'm starting to go down that path, you're feeling more hurt. Right. Because even though I'm like, well, I'm trying to make you feel less hurt because I'm trying to tell you that my state of mind was this and this is why I was doing this and this is what I was going through. And so it's not. Has anything to do with you. I'm not intentionally trying to hurt you, but every time I'm saying those words, it's hurting you more. And that's where I got stuck, is not realizing that. No, no, what I need to do is like, it doesn't matter. I just need to hear and just listen and just be there and just hear the story and empathize with it and really experience and feel it and not need to explain why, you know.

John [00:35:03]: Well, I think anyone who is the one that hurts someone else.

Nicole [00:35:07]: Right.

John [00:35:07]: Will want to quickly move on from it. Men or women.

Nicole [00:35:11]: Sure. Yeah.

John [00:35:12]: Because they don't want to feel the guilt and the shame or whatever other feelings are going to come up by confronting the things that they did.

Nicole [00:35:20]: Yeah.

John [00:35:20]: And so, yes, I agree that men, you know, I'm sure you talk to most about doing that but women also should do that as well, too. They should give men the space, you know, if they have hurt them and not try to be like, oh, get over it, or you're being such a baby, or you're still talking about that. What everyone should realize is that if you truly give the person that you've hurt the space to talk about it and you just listen, like you said, and you don't try to justify what you did, that is how they will be more likely to forgive and let go.

Nicole [00:35:54]: Right.

John [00:35:54]: And like you said, you don't always get that. But if you are with somebody and you're in a relationship and you want that relationship to work, you have to do that.

Nicole [00:36:03]: Absolutely.

John [00:36:03]: Yeah, too.

Nicole [00:36:05]: And you have to be willing, like it is on the other person, to forgive and to forget, and they should do that. But, you know, I can tell you as a man that even though that's true, it's still better to be the leader and the guide and to say as many times as you need to bring this up and talk about this, you can. Because that also helps to let it go. Right. It doesn't mean that it shouldn't be forgiven or, you know, that. But what I'm saying is that it helps. It makes it easier. You're making it easier for your partner. You want your partner to have an easier time of letting go of things. You don't want to be like, oh, no, no, you should forgive and forget. Like, that's how. And yeah, that might be true. It might be true, but still, like, helping them process through it by saying, hey, anytime you want to talk about it. Because also, at the same time, and this is something I had to realize is, like, it's not personal. Like, it's not a judgment of yourself. Again, you're not being condemned over and over again unless they're actually doing that. Right? But if they're telling their story and telling about their pain, that's not the same thing as them accusing you or reincriminating you. Right? That's their experience, and they want to share their experience. And that's the thing. And as soon as you're open to that and you're like, okay, as many times as you need to talk about this, I'm here to listen. And then you don't take it personally anymore, it doesn't hurt you anymore either.

John [00:37:27]: Well, you have to forgive yourself for doing the thing. Because I don't want people to get confused with what you're saying versus the reality. And the reality is, is you have to Take accountability for what you did.

Nicole [00:37:38]: For sure.

John [00:37:38]: Like, if you're trying to skirt it, even if you have an excuse, you're not taking accountability. Like, I don't care what the excuse is.

Nicole [00:37:45]: Right.

John [00:37:46]: You know, if you hurt that person or not, you know, if that root hurt was something that you actually did, and it doesn't matter if you have a good excuse or what it is.

Nicole [00:37:55]: Right.

John [00:37:56]: If you try to skirt that responsibility.

Nicole [00:37:58]: Exactly.

John [00:37:59]: Of what you did.

Nicole [00:38:00]: Yeah.

John [00:38:01]: That person will never forgive you.

Nicole [00:38:03]: Right.

John [00:38:03]: Well, because.

Nicole [00:38:04]: Yeah.

John [00:38:04]: You're not even owning up. They now they don't trust you more because you're not even owning up to what you did. And there is a difference between, like, perceived things that are maybe a little bit more, like, blurry, where someone might be like, oh, I genuinely intentionally didn't mean to hurt you.

Nicole [00:38:22]: Right.

John [00:38:24]: And it's like a smaller degree thing versus like a big thing that, you know, hurt somebody. Like when we had our things that were going on, like, you left and that. I'm not trying to bring it up.

Nicole [00:38:35]: No, no, I know.

John [00:38:36]: I'm just saying that, like, that is something that. Even though I know that you had an excuse and why you did it.

Nicole [00:38:42]: Yeah.

John [00:38:42]: It still hurt. Like, it still was a thing that was gonna hurt no matter what the excuse was. So, like, you have to own up to that. And the sooner you own up to it and forgive yourself is when you will not allow what that person is saying to you to be taken personally. And that's the better way to do it. The better way is to own up to what you did and to forgive yourself, and that person is more likely to forgive you. I'm not saying do something really fucked up and then be like, well, I forgave myself for it, so you should too. You know, like, there is a huge difference. There's a difference between someone genuinely owning up to something and genuinely being sorry and apologizing and forgiving themselves for doing that versus someone doing something shitty and be like, well, I forgave myself, so you should.

Nicole [00:39:34]: Yeah. And I think it's worth saying the components of an apology in this episode as well, because we just talked about this with. With our daughter. Right. And you heard me tell her this after. After some of the outbursts and because most people don't know how to apologize.

John [00:39:49]: I think also most people have never seen an apology like a true apology.

Nicole [00:39:53]: So a true apology has three parts. Okay. And I. I think this is my original. Yeah, it is. So I'll just take.

John [00:40:00]: I'll take just full of original ideas over There.

Nicole [00:40:03]: But it has, first, an acknowledgement of what you did wrong. Right? Like without excuse or blame or justification, I did this. This is what I did to you. The second is an acknowledgement of how that made the person feel. Because, look, and the reason why I've come up with these three is because these are the things that you need that make the apology feel good to you as a person. Right? So first of all, the first one, if someone doesn't acknowledge what they did, then if they just say, I'm sorry, but sorry for what? Right? And it has to be without qualification. So it means like, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings is not. No, no.

John [00:40:50]: Or I'm sorry you feel that way.

Nicole [00:40:52]: Yeah. That's the worst apology. No one ever in the history of mankind has ever had someone say, I'm sorry that you feel that way and have felt validated.

John [00:41:02]: Right, Right.

Nicole [00:41:03]: Or I'm sorry you misinterpreted what I said and it hurt you. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Do not do that. That just hurts more.

John [00:41:13]: Right?

Nicole [00:41:13]: It's, it's. You've. You've added insult to injury. You know, like the, the. It has to be because now you're.

John [00:41:18]: Trying to manipulate the apology.

Nicole [00:41:20]: Not, I'm sorry, I'm not sorry. I'm sorry I said things I shouldn't have. What did you say? Right, you have to spell it out. I'm sorry I did this. I'm sorry I spit in your face. I'm sorry I. What? Whatever it is that that is, I'm sorry I called you a big dickhead or whatever it is. Like, whatever you did, you have to spell it out without qualification. No, but, no, because again, you have to picture yourself on the other side of it because you've been on apologies where people have just said, I'm sorry, or they've said whatever kind of thing, or they said, I. I'm sorry I did this, but this is why I did. Or, yeah, none of that bullshit. It has to be just 100%, this is what it did.

John [00:42:01]: Clear cut.

Nicole [00:42:02]: Right. Number two, you need to, as someone receiving Paul, you want to know that they know how they made you feel. If they're just like, I'm sorry I did this, that must have sucked. Whatever. It's not good, right? You want them to really? Because that's what. Again, like, even when we were talking about before, about your story and what happened where, like, the reason why you need to tell it to me and I need to listen to it, is because you need to make sure that I know how you feel, how it made you feel. It's not about trying to, like, make me feel bad. It's about making sure that. Do you actually even know what you're sorry for? Like, do you know what. Cause what harm you caused? And it's not to rake someone through the coals, but it's to help you empathize with them. Right. And so it's like. So the second component of the apology is you tell them. Yeah. When I said this, when I did this, I know that it probably made you feel like this. It made you feel like I didn't love you. It made you feel hurt. It made you feel whatever it is. And if you don't know, then you can ask them and say, tell me how it made you feel. Because you can't even form the proper apology until you know enough about what you've done.

John [00:43:09]: Right?

Nicole [00:43:10]: Right.

John [00:43:10]: And you won't find that out if you're just trying to shut it down or excuse what you did.

Nicole [00:43:14]: And how does it feel when someone apologizes to you and they don't have that component of it? Like, you don't even, like, it's, like, empty. And when they're done apologizing, then you still want to talk to them more.

John [00:43:24]: Right.

Nicole [00:43:24]: Because you're like. And they're like, oh, I already apologize. And you're like, well, yeah, but I didn't really get to say how I like what you did to me. Like, well, stop beating me up with it. Like, I already said I'm sorry. And it's like, you just feel worse. You're like, okay, now I haven't been heard. Now I'm hurt again. Right. So that's why. So that's why when you give an apology, you should understand that that's how you would feel on the receiving end and say, okay, I need to truly express how I made them feel. And then the third component is, what are you going to do about it? How are you rectifying the situation? Now? Some things can't be rectified. Like, you know, you killed someone's gerbil. You can't bring it back to life. Getting them a new gerbil doesn't really rectify it. But what can you do? How are you paying the price? How are you trying to make things right? Because, you know, if you've said something.

John [00:44:13]: You'Ll never be left alone with your gerbil ever again.

Nicole [00:44:15]: Don't worry, pet.

John [00:44:17]: Set your gerbil.

Nicole [00:44:18]: Yeah, you gotta say, you know, you should offer up the suggestion okay, this is what I'm gonna do to make it right. Which also means how is it not gonna happen again? I'm gonna make sure this doesn't happen again. I'm going to pay you back the $500 I stole you. I'm not just gonna be like, oh, I'm sorry I stole $500 from you. Right? Like that. Because that would be a shitty apology, right? If you're like, I'm sorry I stole $500 from you. I know it probably made you feel really rotten and you couldn't pay your gerbil or whatever, you know, like, you know, but. Because you can't bring the gerbil back. But like, if you, if you sold $500 from someone, you can't give the apology and then, and then be like, okay, you gotta give that.

John [00:44:58]: You.

Nicole [00:44:58]: I. You owe them $500. Like, that's how you rectify the situation, right? There has to be restitution that you offer up in order to make things right. And sometimes, like I said, you can't necessarily bring a dead gerbil back from, From. From the death. Right? Bring to life. But what can you do? What is the price that you're going to pay? And be like, oh, I don't want to grovel. No, you do. You. If you're apologizing, part of it is groveling. It's part of saying, like, look, I'm at your mercy. I fucked up and I owe you something. I'm gonna do it right? And you should come up with what you're gonna do. But then at the end, you have to ask them if it's sufficient and say, well, what do you want? And they'll tell you if they don't feel like it's sufficient. But that's a true apology. Those three components, I'm sorry, specifically what I did, without justifications. Number two, this is how it made you feel, which you have to understand and know what that is. And number three, this is how I'm correcting it and making it. And the reason why I fold this into the conversation on forgiveness is because if you can apologize like that, it makes it a lot easier to forgive. Now it's still on the other person to forgive even if there's no apology.

John [00:46:06]: Right?

Nicole [00:46:06]: But that sure makes it a whole lot easier. And that's how you want to have someone apologize to you, right? Right. Because every single person you know, hopefully that's watching this is like, oh, yeah, I feel super validated. If someone ever apologies. You've probably never been apologized like that. But if someone did that kind of apology, how much better would you feel?

John [00:46:25]: Right?

Nicole [00:46:26]: Right.

John [00:46:26]: You would feel like you could let.

Nicole [00:46:27]: It go, so give that kind of apology.

John [00:46:29]: Yeah, no, you're not wrong. But a lot of people have not even seen anywhere close to an apology like that. But like you said, you have to also be okay with not getting an apology like that. I mean, the more that people learn how to apologize like that and it's out in the world, the more people will learn and it'll pass on to other people. And it's just, you know, better to learn how to do something like that. If you, if you're on your personal development journey that includes all aspects, including how you apologize. And a lot of it is you have to let go of your ego and your pride.

Nicole [00:47:08]: Yeah, Yeah.

John [00:47:09]: I don't know anybody that can apologize with their ego and their pride screaming at them.

Nicole [00:47:13]: Right.

John [00:47:13]: Because that's the thing that makes it like, well, why do I have to do that? Or like, why do I have to grovel? Like, can I just say I'm sorry? That should be enough.

Nicole [00:47:23]: Right. You just want to get away with it.

John [00:47:25]: Right. You want to, to feel like you got away with it. Like you said, you want to do the bare minimum to not face the things that you've. You're part in it as well, too, and then feel like you got off scot free, basically.

Nicole [00:47:39]: And I've been guilty of this. That's why, like, we had issues initially too, was because I was trying to just like, okay, get over it. Like, like, okay, I'm sorry. Like, you know, again, it wasn't that, it wasn't that dismissive, but it probably felt that dismissive to get over it felt that dismissive. You know, but, but, you know, after you. But, but it's not the full, like, it's. That's why I had to come up with the full thing is because I realized it. Because when I sat and thought about it myself, I'm like, yeah, there's three components to this. This is what, these are the things that are necessary. And I wasn't doing it. And that's, you know.

John [00:48:13]: Well, you also taught me how to do it too, because again, I was one of the people that did not know how to properly apologize because I was never apologized to, like, as a child. And a lot of children or adults.

Nicole [00:48:27]: Yeah.

John [00:48:27]: You know, have never seen that as well either. I think it is easier and it's good that we're teaching our daughter it because I think it's easier to adapt yeah. When you're a child and it's important as a parent to apologize to your children properly and teach your children to apologize properly because that will help them in their life. And again, that's spreading that, you know, compassion and empathy that the world needs.

Nicole [00:48:53]: Exactly.

John [00:48:54]: You know, but a lot of adults have never, no adult apologized to them. And so they didn't learn how to apologize properly until they're in a situation where someone they really care about teaches them how to do that. Right. Because you've had issues where you've talked to me and you feel like I'm not giving you a genuine apology. And it's not because I don't want to apologize to you.

Nicole [00:49:16]: Right.

John [00:49:16]: It's because I genuinely didn't know the components of what you just said and how to properly do them and how to properly show that to you.

Nicole [00:49:24]: Yeah.

John [00:49:25]: And you know, it is hard, especially if you, you know, are an avoidant person that, you know, you're trying to unlearn those things because you do want to just shut down when a lot of this stuff happens. And it doesn't make you very, like, empathetic to people, honestly. Yeah, but that is the proper way to be. And you do have. You might have to unlearn things. And it's going to be hard, but it's worth it. And it's not a bad thing that it's hard. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do. Doesn't mean that if you make a mistake and you go back to like your previous programming of being avoidant or whatever, that you should beat yourself up and just be like, oh, well, I can't do it. Yeah, it is something that you should work at and that you should do. And it does make a difference. Like you said, it gives you peace in your life and you have more love and compassion towards people that you have hurt. And it's easier for you to start taking accountability for the things that you've done to other people and learn to genuinely apologize and make them feel better. And you will get that in return as well. But even if you don't, you know how to forgive and let go. And so nothing can harm you again. Nothing can harm you. No one can control you. Only you have that power. So even if it's really hard and you're in a place where you feel like all odds are against you or your parents even know that you hold grudges and things like that, you do have to eventually get to a point where you're like, okay, I am going to Learn to do this. I need to learn to do this.

Nicole [00:51:07]: And in every relationship, right, the reason why relationships fail, in every case, it's because of bitterness. It's resentment, bitterness, whatever you call it, John Gottberg calls it contempt. I think it's the same thing we're all talking about. It's bitterness. And where does bitterness root from? What is the seed of bitterness? It is unforgiveness. That's what it is. That's what it. Even when it's small things, there's a lot of small little seeds. It's like, how do you go from loving someone to hating them? It's from a little seed that gets planted in the ground that is a weed that doesn't get pulled out. And it grows.

John [00:51:50]: And it grows from all the negative feelings, grows it so big that.

Nicole [00:51:55]: And so you have to kill resentment in your relationship. And the way that you kill resentment, the primary way you kill resentment is through. It's through the two things. But for you as a, as a person, it's through forgiveness, but also through the correct way to apologize, to resolve issues. But yeah, you have to if you want to have a relationship, because I can guarantee you the way that the relationship will die. Every relationship dies because of resentment. That's what happens. And so if you have resentment now, you better get rid of it.

John [00:52:25]: It's true.

Nicole [00:52:26]: And the way that you get rid of your own resentment is through forgiveness. The way that you help other people get rid of resentment towards you is through apology or empathy, acknowledgment, validation of their emotions. Right? But so it's on you, like, if you've got the resentment, you already have the seeds of destruction. Like, it's only a matter of time before the relationship will end where it will fail, right? That it's guaranteed. Because you cannot hold resentment and hold love at the same time. Like they will. One will win out. And it's going to be resentment because it will grow. But so, yeah, so that's why forgiveness is super, super important. And not only that, like, even if you're not in a relationship, if you just decide to hold on to bitterness and resentment, it will just. It will grow and come out of your ears. It will fester inside you. It will not stop. It will take over your entire life. And some people's lives have been taken over completely by resentment and bitterness because they choose to not forgive. They hold onto that hurt from long time ago. They clutch with their fingers. No one will pry from the hand. And when you're clutching something so hard you can't hold onto something else. And that's why your life is in the place where it is, is because you're holding so hard onto this hurt, this from the past, that you won't let go of that. You can't open your hands to grab something better.

John [00:53:41]: Right.

Nicole [00:53:42]: And you have to let go of it if you want to survive, if you want to have love in your life, like, you can't choose. You have to choose one or the other.

John [00:53:49]: Yeah. You can't have the pain and, you know, all those things inside of you and give love. You really can't. Like, if you're holding things against people, you know, you can't give the love out that you want to give to everybody, and it doesn't because it's covered up by all that resentment, all that unforgiveness, like, all that pain that you're choosing to hold on to is burying the love and the happiness that you could be giving everyone.

Nicole [00:54:18]: Exactly.

John [00:54:20]: Which will make you feel better, too, if you're giving everybody happiness and love. And that's why, too, the apology part is important because that shows somebody that you love and care about them enough to properly apologize.

Nicole [00:54:33]: Yeah. And. And you know, and it's like. And it doesn't matter how grievous the harm is. Right? Because I know when I made. I've made several YouTube videos on forgiveness, and inevitably someone comments and they say, well, what if. If I murdered your whole family, gruesomely, would you forgive me? And that. Or someone murdered your whole family. And I'm like, yeah, like, what good. Yeah, that would be horrible. Right. But what good would it do that it's not going to bring them back.

John [00:55:01]: And it's not going to harm that person in any way.

Nicole [00:55:04]: It's only going to cause me more. The pain of losing your family. Someone murdered your family. That's painful. Why shoot the second arrow into yourself after you've already suffered such a great first arrow? Because why live it every day? It's not going to help you be like, oh, yeah, you say this now, but you would. No, I would forgive because I'm not going to harm myself further. I know it. I know it as a core principle in my life because I've seen it. That I can say without a doubt, no matter what someone does to me, I will forgive them because I know that it only harms me. And when you really, really know that, it becomes super easy to forgive. But if you don't, if you're having trouble forgiving, it's because you really don't truly understand the harm that it does to yourself, because if you did, you would. And it would be easy. And that's the thing. So if there's anything you can gather from this, which is to just understand that it harms you. And if you get that, then it won't be a problem.

John [00:56:01]: And also understand, don't come to murder me.

Nicole [00:56:04]: Yeah.

John [00:56:05]: I will put up a fight.

Nicole [00:56:06]: Yeah.

John [00:56:07]: We already told you in the last episode we could go up the crazy scale.

Nicole [00:56:11]: Yeah, but. But, but, yeah.

John [00:56:13]: No, you're right. And it's. It's important. And if you don't have someone in your life.

Nicole [00:56:18]: Yeah.

John [00:56:19]: That can help you get to that place. Like, John helped me watch this video. Watch it multiple times. Like, I get. It's still not like you don't love us. We're not your partner. Like, we're not your parents or things like that. But, I mean, we love you.

Nicole [00:56:33]: We love you.

John [00:56:34]: We're your parents.

Nicole [00:56:35]: Yeah.

John [00:56:35]: And we're teaching you this and do that. Whatever it, like, takes for you to really realize how important this is.

Nicole [00:56:43]: Yeah.

John [00:56:44]: Because I wish I'd learned it sooner.

Nicole [00:56:46]: Yeah.

John [00:56:47]: Because I would have felt so much more peace in my life even before you came along and helped me learn this. And it is. It is important, and it's something that you will not regret learning. If anything, you will want to do, help and teach people how to do exactly what we're sitting here talking about.

Nicole [00:57:05]: Yeah. Yeah. Well, good. I think we. I felt like this. I felt like this was a very important topic because, like I said, I hear all the time people saying, I forgive, but I won't forget.

John [00:57:15]: Well, and I think it was important for us to talk about, you know, where we were at with that, too. And, I mean, mostly me, but, you know, with all the things with the not forgetting and letting go and the apologizing. But. Well, but you have to be transparent about it. And it. That's why I'm sitting here telling you it is important, because I was on the other side, and I was on the other side until you came on. Yeah. But I'm just saying that, like.

Nicole [00:57:41]: Yeah.

John [00:57:42]: I don't want people to.

Nicole [00:57:43]: Yeah.

John [00:57:44]: Give up hope and be like, I can't do that, because it is a better way.

Nicole [00:57:48]: Like, you can look at it and say objectively, this is a much better way to live your life.

John [00:57:51]: Yeah. It is honestly freeing.

Nicole [00:57:53]: Right.

John [00:57:54]: And like John said in the last episode, like, we were put through the wringer last week, and the old me would have been like, I am not ever letting this go. Because I don't, Granted, I don't want to see the craziness again. But at the same time, I'm like. And kind of like you talked about with the stove, I just want to add, the last thing in there is that you have to trust yourself. You have to trust yourself to know that you experience something.

Nicole [00:58:17]: Right.

John [00:58:17]: That is not just going to disappear from your head. You're not going to lose the wisdom or the knowledge that you learned from going through a hard experience. You will still have that. And so, like I said, when we had a hard week last week, parenting wise, you know, or what we experienced, the old me would have been like, I'm always gonna think about this. Cause I don't wanna deal with that ever again. But that is not a way to live. Like, that's just going to cause me to be upset. That's gonna cause me to be in a negative place. And that's not gonna benefit anybody. And the thing is, I went through that. I don't need to keep reliving that. I don't wanna keep reliving that.

Nicole [00:58:54]: Yeah.

John [00:58:55]: You know, and hopefully we don't have to relive that. But even if we do, there's at least some little nugget that I learned in that, that I don't have to keep replaying it to make sure that I remember that nugget of wisdom that I learned in those moments. Exactly.

Nicole [00:59:09]: Exactly.

John [00:59:09]: So you have to trust yourself. You have to trust your mind, your body, your soul, that the things that you've experienced, you don't have to keep replaying in your life.

Nicole [00:59:18]: Right.

John [00:59:19]: To have the knowledge from those things. Because even as someone that had been cheated on in the past, I also felt like I had to keep that, you know, kind of alive in me so that I didn't get cheated on again. But that didn't do anything, Right?

Nicole [00:59:34]: Exactly.

John [00:59:34]: That didn't do anything. And I had to forgive them and, like, really forgive them, you know, and let that go and, you know, things like that. And so, again, as someone that has been there not that long ago. And again, yes, everyone has been there, but it really hasn't been super long since I learned a lot of these things that I just want people to know that the change that you feel will make it worth it and you will not want to go back to how it was before.

Nicole [01:00:03]: Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And, you know, actually I lost the thing I was going to say, but then I remembered it, which was that, yeah, I know I need to take notes, but you Know how you always say, I don't know how? Because there's some stuff in my past that I've been through, and you always tell me, john, I don't know how it didn't change you and make you into a nasty person. Right. The answer is forgiveness. That's how it didn't change me, is because maybe if this is the last motivator I'll give you to forgive people is that if you do not forgive them, you will become them. That you certainly become them.

John [01:00:43]: Mic drop.

Nicole [01:00:44]: Yeah, but it's true.

John [01:00:45]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:00:45]: And if you want to not become them, like, if you really don't like what someone did to you and you really don't like what happened, do not become them. And we see it. Every child that has an abusive parent and then they grow up and they abuse their child in the cycle, it's because of. They haven't forgiven.

John [01:01:07]: Right. And they've been playing that over and over in their head to a point where that's all they know.

Nicole [01:01:11]: They become them.

John [01:01:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:01:12]: They become them. Forgiveness breaks the cycle. Forgiveness breaks every cycle. That's what it is. And you will become the thing that you despise. You will become it if you don't let it go. Right. That's true. It's the cure. So that's a good motivator. You don't want to become the thing, because you will become that exact thing.

John [01:01:32]: Yeah. So this one was deep.

Nicole [01:01:35]: Yeah.

John [01:01:35]: We don't have anything.

Nicole [01:01:36]: Yeah, we don't have any at the.

John [01:01:38]: End, but I think we spilled enough.

Nicole [01:01:41]: Yeah. Yeah. We went into realness. Our stuff, but that's good. Yeah. I feel like this one was powerful. Needed to be.

John [01:01:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:01:52]: Be said so. You're right. So thankful that I have you and I love you with all my heart. All right, that's it for this week. Follow us and leave us a review and subscribe. Yeah. And share this episode. Seriously, if you found some benefit from this, I mean, you know someone in your life who needs this, Right. Everyone does. So send it to them. Share it with them. You know, watch it over again if you need to put it on your bookmark, because this is an important message that everyone can use. You know, I'm not just trying to toot our own horns there, but it. It really is. So that's true. All right, we'll see you next week through every f.