John: That's one thing that women aren't very good at in the bedroom, saying, "I like this, I don't like that." A guy is eager to please. Some of the talks I've had with guys about sexuality, I'm amazed that they made it through grade school and didn't learn about the stuff that they should have learned about.

Nicole: You're right that there are some circumstances where the woman feels like the guy isn't that into it or he doesn't care about her pleasure, and that makes it really hard to want to do something when it's not that enjoyable. But you can get better at it, guys. Beyond the "we discover through our flaws, we complete each other better than perfect, we stay through every fault, we find our way." Alright, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we show you how two imperfect people helping each other equals one better than perfect relationship.

John: You got it down.

Nicole: That's right. I should after 20-something episodes.

John: You know, that's true. I'll say something because we don't know exactly where we are right now in time and space. But didn't you want to start the episode with some little... Well, there wasn't any real good comments or anything, and no one's left us iTunes reviews on Apple with words.

Nicole: Yes, we need words. So if you did leave one, you might have been featured at the beginning of this episode. So, I mean, okay, wait, there was one. Some guy said, well, King, thanks to King for supporting. But no, it was when we talked about actually on the past episode about like moving in together, that some guy was like, "You're more likely to get a divorce if you move in together."

John: Oh yeah, that's true. I replied back to that, talked about this, but I replied back that married men are statistically proven to live longer when they're married. Well, married men, yeah. That's how I replied back. And then I also just said like, you can find whatever statistic you want to prove your idea that you have. And I know when we talked about it, you were like, well, you're living together longer and like you get more irritated with each other. But I think that's also a good thing. Like, you know, if you saw that you guys aren't really communicating properly and people are getting resentful before you even got married because you're living together, then you could have separated before you got married, and it wouldn't have led to a divorce.

Nicole: Right. So, I mean, I think there's a lot of reasons for the statistic that you could think about and figure out. But the most obvious one to me is religion. So, if you're highly religious, you're less likely to move in together before you get married. If you're highly religious, you're less likely to get divorced, period, even no matter how bad it is or whatever.

John: So, that's true. That's the most likely explanation for that statistic, I would say. But common sense prevails to say that it makes sense to live with someone before you commit to living with them for the rest of your life. You know, and unless you were in a culture where you just were not going to get a divorce. I don't know, but in that case, I guess I would still say it would still make more sense to me. You're still kind of just moving in with each other. Like, what's really the difference? Like, even if you move in after you get married, I don't think that's going to prevent you from getting a divorce by holding out until you're married.

Nicole: Yeah, you're taking steps that are progressively harder to undo.

John: Right. You're dating casually, easy to undo that, right? Just ghost them, you know, whatever. No, don't ghost people. I'm just kidding. Don't give guys... They're more likely to ghost anyway. And you're over here like... It's like they didn't hear anything else besides that. They're like, "John said ghost them. We're allowed." Do not ghost. Do not ghost. But you get a committed relationship, you break up, you get hurt. If you move in and it doesn't work out, you just move out. And I mean, like, it is harder, right? Yeah, there are progressive levels. You know, you get married, now it becomes more complicated. You get tattoos of each other's name on your genitalia, now it becomes really difficult. You, that's... Now your whole everything's ruined. Now you have to get tattoo removal in a place that it's not going to feel good. And I heard tattoo removal doesn't feel good anyway.

Nicole: That's right. So, yeah. So, but yeah, anyway, well, let's get to the actual episode this week. Ready?

John: Yeah, okay. So, the episode this week is, how can women be romantic? It's not what you think. That's the important part.

Nicole: Well, then you got to take it away.

John: I'll take it away. So, okay. So, romance, as we discussed in two episodes ago or whatever, when I talked about because we already did the episode, and I talked about breaking this up about how men can be romantic. Yeah, because they have a hard time being romantic naturally. But the key thing of being romantic, and this is why it doesn't look the same for men and women, although there can be some similarities, is that we said that it was being thoughtful. Now, the thing that I wanted to add after that, and I think maybe I said in another episode, was that it's not just thoughtful, but it's effort. So, thoughtfulness plus effort is really what being romantic is. And so, thoughtfulness means thinking about what is important to the other person, not what's important to you. That's why if a guy gives a girl roses, and he's thought about it, and that's the kind of flower that she likes, and he knows that she likes to get flowers, and that makes her feel special, then he does it, and it's meaningful. Just giving roses doesn't mean anything by itself. But that's also why, in many cases, it would not be romantic for a girl to give a guy roses, unless you're Blink 182.

Nicole: I won't sing the song, but you have to do your little voice because, you know, people...

John: That's a different part, but he's talking about the "where are you."

Nicole: There we go.

John: That was really loud, and I was next to the microphone. I probably should... "Where are you?" Yeah, practice, sure. But my point is, it's not the same thing unless the guy really likes roses, like you said. But it's the thoughtfulness and the effort that's put into it. So, that brings us to, well, what is romantic to guys? What is thoughtful and effort? What do they want? Because I feel like women do think it's like, well, I think women think, "Oh, like if I do little things for him like he does for me, that's romantic." I mean, that makes him feel special, but you're saying it's not.

John: Well, I'm not saying don't do those things, and you're not saying don't do those. But it's not the main thing for a man. Well, I'm saying, again, if you think about it because the way I like to think about, and this is how I just understand women and relationships, is I think about whatever desires I have or whatever things that I feel emotionally, hmm, what is the opposite, not necessarily the opposite because that always, but what is the corollary that women experience, right, or feel, right? And so, in this case, right, a lot of women, their...

Speaker 1: Chief complaint about a man is he doesn't take me out, he doesn't remember anniversaries or birthdays or special events. He's not romantic, you know? That's how they're describing not being romantic. Their desire is to be made to feel special, right? And I think it becomes more routine. Guys are very routine, and in the beginning, they actually have to put in the effort to get the woman, so they're doing all this extra stuff. But then, once they have the woman, they just fall back into their routine of almost like they're living by themselves. And then that's why the woman feels like there's no romance because he's there, and he might be like, "I love you," but he's not doing the extra stuff like we talked about in that episode. It just falls into this guy routine where it's like, logically, "I love you. Why do I need to do this stuff still?" because he got what he wanted.

Speaker 2: And if we flip it, because we want to figure out the other angle, what is the guy's experience? Most women know, and every man knows what typically happens in reverse, but they don't think about it, right? So what happens in reverse is the guy starts to feel like, "Oh, well, she doesn't wear sexy lingerie anymore. She doesn't act like she's really interested in me or desires me as much anymore. She's just taking it for granted." You know, some of them aren't getting it at all.

Speaker 1: Oh yeah, are not getting it at all. I read some threads, and they're like, "It's been 5 years," and I'm like, "What? Look, if you're not having sex at least two to three times a week, your relationship's broken in some way." I know that a lot of people are like, "Oh, different people have different..." No, I'm sorry, but psychologists and sex therapists say the same. Okay, well, glad I agree because whatever excuse you're making for it, I'm not saying that always has to be the case, and I'm not saying that there's not some period of time or circumstances. It does indicate that there's a problem that needs to be addressed and fixed because it's not just a libido issue.

Speaker 2: It's not a mismatch of libidos. There may be a difference between men and women for sure, but that's not what that is. Like, two to three times a week, if you're not doing that, there's a problem. And again, there's plenty of people that I have known that have had issues, and they try to... So, my point is, you either get out or you fix it. Don't just tolerate that. So when I hear guys say that kind of stuff, I'm like, "Okay, look, what are you doing here then? Because are you... What are you doing if it's a marriage?" Because a lot of times it is marriage. Like you said, the flip of a guy getting into a routine and not being romantic is a woman getting in a relationship, and she can have sex whenever she wants with the guy. So she gets to determine it, and she takes it for granted, and she doesn't do the things to seduce him that she used to do.

Speaker 1: So, the answer to that question is, it's still the same thing in the sense that you either fix it or get out. So, okay, but like, how would you fix it? How would you tell a guy to try to fix it?

Speaker 2: Well, if I was telling a guy to try to fix it, I would say do what we said in the previous. Like, start doing, and don't worry about her. Like, if you start doing your part, just make sure that you're an expert at making her feel loved. If you do that, don't even worry about the sex part yet. Then, if she's not responding to that, and again, I'm not saying that... And the reason why I said it that way is because it's not like, "Okay, I just took you out to dinner." Don't do that, right? It's like you have to have put in 3 months of time of putting the full effort and not caring about your own needs and just saying, "I'm just going to show this woman that she's loved," which I feel like guys have a hard time with, you know, putting in the effort and not being like, "Hey, I did this for you," you know what I mean? Because it's got to feel... Because again, a romantic gesture has to feel thoughtful, it's effort, but also it has no expectation of anything in return.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it has to have that; otherwise, it's manipulation. Right, like if you're being romantic to her just to get laid, that's manipulation. That's not loving at all, actually. So that's what a guy can do. But we'll talk more about what a woman should do.

Speaker 2: Right, so if a woman understands that, okay, a guy's just... It's equivalent to her feeling like he doesn't take her out on dates anymore, he doesn't pay as much attention to her. All those things that you said, but a guy's equivalent is like, "Oh, she's not acting as sexually interested in me anymore." Right? Even if you are still having sex, there's a difference between it being taken for granted and being truly desired, where the woman's like, "I can't wait to get my hands on you." Like, she's actively pursuing you in a sexual way because a lot of guys, what their complaint is, is that she doesn't seem very interested in sex. I mean, a lot of guys complain that they're not even able to get sex at all, which again, like I said, we address that. But that she's not super interested in it, she's got a headache all the time, all that stuff. And again, some of those things can be addressed by the romantic part.

Speaker 1: But you know, if you think about what that is, and then you think from a woman's perspective, how could I be thoughtful and put in effort? It would be the opposite. I would say the first thing that women have to do, actually hearing you say that, is you have to respect your husband.

Speaker 2: Yes, because I feel like they're not interested in him as much because they don't respect him. Like, if you don't respect a man, or you feel like he's another child, or someone you have to take care of rather than someone who's taking care of you and your family, then you're not going to be physically attracted to that person in that way. So I would say the first thing you have to do is respect your husband.

Speaker 1: Yep, and if it's gotten really bad, that's going to seem really hard. But I've been reading this book, I think it's called "The Surrendered Wife." Some of it I don't agree with; I'm still reading it. But she does make a lot of good points where, and I want to speak on this one because women will understand, especially women in their masculine, or if they're in this rut with their husbands, you chose this man.

Speaker 2: Right, exactly. Yeah, so you don't respect your own decisions that you're making. You don't trust yourself if you're treating your husband like you don't.

John: I hope they heard that because that was probably the most profound thing. I respect you, so this is not something that it's like Eureka to me because I do respect you. You were the first man that I've ever truly respected that I dated. So, I can understand where women get in this cycle which is really messing them up in all areas. They're angry because they feel like they have to do everything. They're not allowing their husbands to even have a chance because they don't respect their husbands.

Nicole: Right, but if you look at it, you married this man for a reason. You respected him at some point enough to get married. And if you didn't, then you messed everybody up by marrying somebody that you didn't even respect. So, I think the first thing that they need to learn is to respect their husbands. Absolutely, because that is all the feelings that they feel when they don't respect their husband is exactly what lowers their love and makes them look at their husband and not want to jump his bones because they don't admire him. They don't look up to him. They think he's below her or on the child's level. So, there's not that attraction like there would be if she really respected him and looked up to him.

John: And on the topic of respect, I think also a lot of women might find or even a lot of guys might say, "Wait a minute, you're saying that what's romantic to guys is sexual type of stuff?" But that's not the case. If that's the case, it's probably because the higher need that's not being met is respect. So, if a man is being respected, the very next thing will be the sexual thing, the desire thing. But if he's not being respected, he's going to be like, "Look, the only thing I'm looking for is respect." And that is also romantic. If you're a woman who hasn't respected the man you're with or hasn't made that known to him, and then you write him a little note and say, "Hey, I just wanted to let you know that I thank you for all the things that you do and you work really hard and I admire that about you and you take care of our family." Like, it's not hard.

Nicole: Yeah, you married this guy. There's something about him where you were like, "I want to spend the rest of my life with him," and you need to find that. It's still there. You need to find where you started taking away responsibilities from him because you thought he couldn't do it. And I get it because sometimes as women we can be a little controlling. We want things done the way that we want, but at the end of the day, if your husband is trying and he's doing a pretty dang good job, you need to give him the respect. You need to tell him how much you respect him and admire him, and then he'll do more. He'll go above what you're even expecting, and then that just adds more to your attraction to him, and then he will love that. So, it's like, oh yeah, that is like the core of a lot of people's problems. A lot of women's problems with attraction towards the guy that they're with is that they've lost respect along the way. Not always, but I feel like that's where a lot of that backed up, like we haven't had sex in so long, it's because she's feeling this sort of way about him, and then that's making him upset, and he's still trying, but she's like no.

John: Exactly. And I think maybe the best thing in that "Love and Respect" book that we did read, even though some of it still, but was a chapter on, I forgot what chapter it was on, but it started off basically, he told the story of this woman that really didn't respect her husband. And then she went in to visit him at work one day, and he's the big cheese at work. Like everyone's like, "Yes, sir," and you know, calling him sir, and old guys that are older than him, he's in charge of them, and he's got this cute secretary or whatever, and she's looking up to him. And she was like, "Man, this same guy that I am treating like a child at home and disrespecting, he's like everyone else respects him and thinks he's the shit." And now, and she just had this humbling experience. And I think a lot of women, if they saw their man at work, they would have that same thing. So, it's like, don't wait. Give him that respect that he deserves. He's an adult human. He can take care of himself. He's probably a lot more respectable and honored at work than you're like the home where a man is at his wife should respect him and lift him up and honor him more than at his workplace.

Nicole: Right, life partner. And if you're listening to this as a woman and you're like, "I can't respect my husband," your relationship is going down the drain fast, and you need therapy or something to try to salvage it if you think it's salvageable. But if you don't, you need to leave that man alone because he deserves to be respected. And I'm sure to someone else, he's doing everything that a person would ever want, even with his flaws. Right, because again, if we flip it and we say a woman has to be perfect to be loved, it would be, yeah, you want to be loved how you are. You're a work in progress. We're all a work in progress. A man is not perfect, but he still wants to be respected and treated as such. So, and then again, that's where that's romantic as well. Like we were saying, you start because why? Because you think about the other person if you're trying to be romantic and you think about what would light up their day today. What would make them on top of the world? And for different people, it's going to be different, and between the sexes, it's going to be different. That's why it's like for a woman as a guy, you can think about a lot of things that would light her up, a special trip that you take her on, a surprise, a scavenger hunt, some kind of romantic gesture. You can think of those things, but how many times do women think that for their guy? Well, I think like I said in the beginning, is that they think that it's doing similarish things, not totally the same but similar, like acts of being romantic. Women tend to think like, "Oh well, that'll make him, you know, if I go take his car for an oil change or some guy thing," you know, which is nice, and guys appreciate, but it's not his core want, his core like what makes him feel loved and romantic.

Speaker 1: It helps to really think about what would make him feel like he's on top of the world. I would lift his day up. And again, if you're thinking the same things that you would like, you're not really thinking about him. That's where the empathy comes in, to say, "Alright, what is this guy into? What has he said before that he likes? What kind of surprise or thing would make him just go crazy and feel super excited to be alive today?" And so, if you think of those things... It's talked about a lot, too, though. Like, to be honest, there is a lot of talk about men being romantic and how they can be romantic.

Speaker 2: Exactly. So, there's less of an excuse for guys, no offense, but women don't really know. Like, women know that men want sex, but they don't always know how to do it in the way that a man wants.

Speaker 1: Okay, so I'll give it to you, right? Because that's where your seduction comes in. That's what it is. Seduction. To learn to be seductive to a man. Right? Because again, yeah, guys want sex, but it's not just about the sex. It's about the woman having a high desire, showing that she wants it, and creating an experience for him, enticing him.

Speaker 2: Because think about it, it's a reversal. A lot of times in marriages, guys are trying to get the sex. "Oh, she's got a headache." Okay, so it's going this direction. You really want to make the guy feel like he's on top of the world and light up his life. Change the direction. So you're going after him. You're enticing him, seducing him, as opposed to him, you know...

Speaker 1: Because one respect, a woman could say, "Okay, well, I'm just going to have sex with him more," or "give him more when he is asking for it." And that's okay, and that's good. But what's better, and what actually starts to turn it into romantic, is flipping the dynamic and then coming after him. Because you think about what will actually light up his life.

Speaker 2: Here's the thing, though. How does a woman keep from being the sole initiator, though? Because I don't think any woman has a problem with initiating. I think she has a problem with becoming the initiator. And if she does it as much as a guy tries to be romantic, it does seem like she would maybe become the majority of the initiator.

Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think that that's a bad thing. I think that because, and here's the way that this works, is the seduction is an open invitation, right? And it's an enticement to draw someone in. So if she's primarily doing that, that's good. Because let me tell you why. Because women are naturally able to express love, and the love part comes easy. So the guy should really be the sole initiator, the majority initiator of the love part of things, in the sense that he's creating those opportunities. He's the one who's planning out romantic things for her, and trips, and doing dates, and things like that.

Speaker 2: He should be doing that because that's a thing that's more meaningful coming from him. Because it's not the default, like the one that turns on the faucet, and it comes out of her, right? Like the love comes out of her.

Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly. And so a woman, the faucet for the other thing. See, because the guy's going to respond to it. And it doesn't mean that he's not going to go out and seek it as well, but it's more powerful when the woman does that. Because again, it's the thoughtful effort that's put into it. And that can be done in a thoughtful effort way. Right? A lot of women just, they don't learn seduction. Right? It's as simple as, hey, you ask him to come into the bedroom, and you're laying on the bed naked, or you're in lingerie, or something like that. Or you show up at his office or at his work in a trench coat. You know, at his work. I'm just saying, like, and you get him fired real quick. No, you go back home. I mean, you figure something. But I'm just saying, like, any kind of thing. You wake them up with a surprise in the morning. Something that is going to be, you put some thought into this, right? And you're figuring out a way to just, like a guy would put thought into a date or a trip or something romantic. Women have to put the same thought into it. And it could be, like I said, if the problem is really the respect, that can be the romantic gesture. It doesn't have to just be sexual. But many times, the two primary needs that are going to make him feel loved, just like a woman feels loved, is going to be respect and not sex, but sexual desire. Because again, the thing about sex that women don't understand, I think, is that a guy can get sex from anywhere. He can pay a prostitute for sex. Like, sex in itself is not valuable. It is the desire of a woman. In fact, when I coach guys all the time, and we have this topic come up, I've always told guys, I'm like, "Look, what you're after is not just sex. You're not learning to pick up women just so you can get sex. Because sex is a commodity. Everyone is capable of sex. You can get that from anywhere. I mean, maybe you're not able to, but you can pay money and get sex. There's no amount of money that you can pay that is going to get you desire from a woman. Nothing. That's priceless. That's why that becomes the most valuable thing, not just the sex."

Speaker 2: I mean, it makes sense. What if, like, I know that sometimes women can't go as much as a guy would like. So what do you recommend, like, for her to still be romantic to a guy, but if she can't actually, like, follow through with it?

Speaker 1: Because I think the thing is, it is not the sex. She can still show the desire that she has for him.

Speaker 2: Okay, well, can you, like, give some other examples besides the ones that you gave? Because those lead obviously more towards sex. But some other ways that men feel desired by a woman that maybe...

Speaker 1: Well, they don't have to necessarily even lead towards sex. It's just the knowing that she desires you, or that she wants you. And I think also, the more that a man feels that, the less that he requires or tries to get the frequency of sex.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but can you, like, give some examples of things that would make a man feel desired besides the ones that you already gave? Because we've had this conversation multiple times, and you even just said it, that women don't learn to seduce. They don't, right? They don't understand, even if they've been with a man sometimes, what makes a man feel desired. Like, men get it, and then they get pissed that a woman doesn't get it. So that's what I'm trying to get you to give women some examples. They don't have to be specific, but something that, like, guidelines.

Speaker 1: It's the thoughtfulness. But there might be things that women don't even know that make a man feel desired. There are some obvious ones, like the ones you said, like making...

John: An experience you know, before you guys have sex, pursue him and seduce him, right? But like, what are the other things that make him feel desired? As far as like, I guess some key attributes that she can use because there's not a lot of knowledge around this. Women know they can use sex to get a man to do basically anything they want, but it's different to make the man you're with feel desired before the sexual part, or add the sexual into something that's maybe not blatantly sexual. Does that make sense?

Nicole: Yeah, I get what you're saying. I would say that, well...

John: Okay, so it's a mindset. The very first thing of the mindset is to not take it for granted, which again we could say the same thing for men. But what I mean by that is, don't just assume that sex will happen. If you had to get sex from this man because he wasn't given to you, and some women are in that situation actually. So that's true, you know, that it doesn't seem some do try to seduce and it still doesn't work, right? But that's the mentality to have. If I was trying to get this guy interested in me sexually and to come after me, what would I do? That's the mindset. The second part of the mindset is to have the, I'm not saying to necessarily do this or act all of this out all the time, but have the mindset that you're coming across as a sex-crazed nymphomaniac that has to have it because again, if you think about it, what...

Nicole: If you're not in the mood, and like, mood is a big thing for women. I mean, not like you couldn't get there, but in that moment, or like, I don't know because you know, like I've talked about in some of the other things, it's a light switch for men.

John: Yeah, so he's instantly in the mood, right? So, some things to think about in regards to that, right? Do you think that a guy is always in the mood to go to the store, to buy some roses, or to plan a trip, or to do romantic gestures? He's not always in the mood, but he can get himself into that mood, right? And so, it's the same thing for a woman. Yes, the engine takes a little longer to rev up, but she can also rev up her own engine ahead of time so that she can now bring that to the guy. I'm not saying that that has to be the case all the time, and not saying that a guy doesn't have any responsibility in revving up that engine, but I'm just saying that it's not like a light switch, and you don't have to fake it either. You can get yourself into the mood. And again, like you said earlier in the podcast about the respect thing, that's a huge thing because if you respect the guy, then you can start fantasizing and thinking about this strong, powerful man that you have and what it would be like to please him, right? That's going to help you in that direction. But the whole idea is that you have this mindset of it's not taken for granted, that sex-crazed nymphomaniac like that kind of, and again, the reason why I'm using these examples too, and this is mind, and again, I'm not saying that you have to just do that all the time, that you're having sex all the time, or that that's, I'm just saying that you're presenting that, right? Just like you have a persona as a woman that you want a man to present, that's a romantic archetype of that you don't want him to be like, "Hey beautiful, I got you some roses."

Nicole: Okay, I have another question because yes, everything you're saying makes a lot of sense, but now I'm like, moms, okay, yeah, the mom. You can only act like a sex-crazed nymphomaniac behind closed doors. Like, I'm not saying that you can't kiss your husband and hug on him and things like that, you should be doing that, but you also don't want to be overly sexual in front of your children. So like, that's why I guess I'm saying too, what are the more not blatantly sexual ways that a woman, because like, there are a lot of moms and there are a lot of moms where their problem is kind of what you said, maybe even the opposite where men don't really want to have sex with them, and they're trying, they're putting on the lingerie, they're trying to seduce their man, and he's not interested in her. So like, what about that scenario or like, what about how can she make him feel desired when they can't necessarily be naked sitting on the couch or whatever, but she wants him to still feel desired, right?

John: So again, it doesn't have to come to fruition, but the want has to be there, right? So how can you make the want? It can be a text message that you send, it can be a naughty picture that you send of yourself, right? Don't let your children, you doing something naughty to yourself or talking about something naughty that you did to yourself because you had to do it because you were so filled with lust for this man. Let me stop you right there, okay? Because this is something that you taught me, uh, that I think a lot of women don't understand either, okay? That men want to hear about the things you do to yourself.

Nicole: Yeah, and they want you to tell them what to do to you. Yeah, because to me, I'm like, that sounds so selfish and self-centered, and like, you're trying to make it about him and he feel desired, and as a woman, I'm like, oh, so I'm going to touch on him, I'm going to like, make, I'm going to tell him all the things I want to do to him, and you're over here like, that's nice. I'm not saying that you don't think that's nice, but you're like, this actually makes him man feel more desired, and I think women everywhere right now are probably like, what? Like, not that it's totally shocking, but that it was shocking for me to hear that instead of me coming on to you in the way that I just mentioned, it makes you feel more desired when you tell me what you want from me or you to do to me.

John: Yeah, okay, there are a couple of things I could say about that. So one, how do you know that a guy is horny? It's pretty obvious, yeah, but he's like, he wants something from you, he doesn't want to give you something, he wants something from you, an orgasm, I mean if you're putting it blunt. But I think like, he's seeking after, like he wants to get gratified from you, right? That's what. Okay, so that's why if when women are trying to display desire for a man, and they're like, and again, doing something to him is great as well, but by itself is great, and every guy will not refuse that, and they'll say it's great, okay. However, either do it to yourself, needing it from him, or needing to do it to him in order to derive pleasure to yourself, that's what's hot, and that's what, but women would say.

John: That is why they want to do it. They want to do stuff to you because it makes them turned on. But are they expressing that? That is the key. See, because they just got to say that. They've got to say it, show it, and be like, "I got to have it." I feel like they do show it, and maybe they're like, "I am showing it because I'm doing it, and I told you I want to do it." But then they do it without asking, just go for it. That shows desire. When we're talking about desire, think about it as a woman. How do you want to feel desired? Do you want to feel desired with words or actions? Or, "Hey, we're having sex, so obviously I desire you," or do you want to feel ravished? I think that's why women get confused. That's why I brought this up. Most women do feel desired when she hears what a man wants to do to her rather than what he wants her to do to him. Does that make sense?

Nicole: It makes sense. I'm not saying that doesn't turn her on, but I think when you are feminine and being submissive too, you want to know what someone wants to do to you because their desire for doing those things to you makes you feel desired. So, women think, "If I pursue him like that or tell him all the things that I want to do to him, he'll feel desired." And that's true. But it has to come across that doing that to him turns you on. That creates that desire gap. If it feels in any way like a chore or if it feels like I'm just doing you a favor, then that's more of a respect thing, I would think.

John: No, it's a desire thing. If it feels like a favor or a chore, then that's what I'm saying. I think it's where the lack of respect or admiration for your man is because it shouldn't feel like a chore. If you're really into the person you're with, you're going to be really into the experience. But that in itself doesn't make the desire real. Think about it. You've talked about this before. When you are receiving pleasure, you want it to be done in such a way that someone hasn't had a meal in a very long time and they're very hungry. That's the same type of energy that indicates desire. It's not just doing the job but enjoying doing the job.

Nicole: But again, like I said, I'm directing this more at the women who are trying to show their man desire and they are desiring their man, but he still might not feel desired. It's hard, but if you really think about it, you can figure out the pieces. We talked about in the male episode, what is the Bible for women? If you want to understand women, understand psychology and being romantic, look at romance novels. It's obvious. So many women are consuming romance novels because that's their fantasy.

John: You're not going to tell women to watch porn, are you? We did a whole episode on how porn is cheating. Romance novels, for research purposes, okay. I'm not telling guys to read romance novels and get obsessed with them. But a little bit of research on it. But okay, I don't even need to say that. Hold on, let me say, women have seen it; they know what happens in porn.

Nicole: Yeah, but here's the thing. At least romance novels are a bit more realistic, or you can imagine them in a more realistic scenario. Porn is not. And it feels, as a woman, it would feel like you're being fake, which is unattractive. That's what turns women off. They don't want to have to act like some person that's in porn.

John: Okay, so like, what I'm saying though is if you look at how the people who engineered it, what they were thinking because they knew the psychology of men. It's the attitude, the mindset. If you're trying to get into a man's head and understand what makes a man feel, watch this podcast because it's better than watching porn. Porn's not even real, and there is a lot of perverted things. No woman wants to feel like she has to act differently for her man to feel desired.

Nicole: And I don't feel like a man being romantic is acting. You also married this woman, right? And you love her, right? So, it should not be acting to go get some flowers, her favorite flowers, and pay attention to her. You shouldn't be acting to desire the man that you wanted the whole time.

John: You just hit on the perfect point, but I think the way you described it is better than women going to watch porn, to be honest. I mean, if you can find some normal people having sex or something, but it's better for women to hear how you described it because it's kind of like telling a man to find this needle in a haystack of being romantic. It's the same as telling a woman to watch porn because it's just not a realistic thing.

Nicole: I agree with you. If we're talking about the mind, what you could garner from it... Let me give you an example because you just hit on the perfect point. You said it's not fake when a man's being romantic.

John: Right, what you're trying to get as a woman, you know the guy loves you. You're trying to get him to show it in the way you desire.

Nicole: Exactly, as overtly and personally as possible, not fake. If you're being romantic and it's fake, I'll know it right away.

John: Immediately. And if you try to show a guy desire and you're not showing him your real true desire, if you're trying to be fake, he's going to figure it out right away. That's why the whole pleasuring theme is actually a turn-on for a man because he wants to see what your real desire looks like. If there's no one looking, what does your desire look like?

Nicole: On that, I think she has to have the space to do that too, though. Like we said, two to three times a week, so you do need to space it where she can show you that. If you're hounding her to have sex every day of the week, which a lot of women feel like a man does feel that way, but you're saying they don't. If you turn it around, maybe the first week you do it every day, but what's going to happen is now that you're chasing, that need is not going to be as great anymore. He's going to be able to sit comfortably because he knows it's coming and he knows the desire is there.

John: If a guy is cold and the woman is constantly having to badger him like, "Do you love me?" and then he starts showing her love, at first she's going to eat all that up. But then, when she gets her fill of it and sees the consistency, she's going to start to ask less often. It's the same thing for a man and a woman. You just have to figure out the flip in the psychology.

Nicole: That's why, like what you said about when the guy is being romantic, is he being fake? It feels fake when the guy's like, "What, I got you flowers, you don't like them?" The same could be for a woman pretending to be something she's not. If he doesn't respond, she's like, "What, I watched the porn you told me to watch, and I did all the things." That loses the whole thing. True love, a true romantic gesture from a guy, it's in his heart already, but he's expressing it well. And you guys have to communicate the same thing.

John: What should a woman do if she's in that situation where she is trying to seduce the man, trying to give him what you said is romantic, and he's still rejecting her or acting like it's a chore?

Nicole: There are guys who act like that too. I know the majority is men not receiving sex from the women in their lives, but there is a flip-flop. What would you say to those women, besides the obvious of reevaluating the relationship? Is there a way for her to get that man back?

John: There are a few things I would say. The first one is to revisit the respect part of it and see if that's lacking. If a man has not been respected for a long enough time and he's just given up, he's going to lose sexual attraction for you. He can't be turned on because he's so defeated and beat down. A lot of women think it's just about sex for a man, but it's not. Sex is important, but it's what it represents. Men use sex to build intimacy, while women want to have sex when there's intimacy. So, if he's being totally disrespected for a long time, he doesn't want to connect to that person. That's the first place to check.

John: What's happening and the respect thing is to actually pull back at that point, right? Okay, take care of yourself, let him know that you're fine. You're pulling back and letting him come again. Also, the thing is that a lot of women don't understand how to seduce. Seducing is not badgering or being upset about someone teasing. Look, as a man, men learn how to seduce. Some men learn how to seduce, but men more so learn how to seduce than women. As a man, you have to learn how to seduce if you're going to be successful with women. You cannot go up to a woman and be like, "Hey, I want to have sex. You want to have sex? Let's have sex." That's not seduction. Seduction starts with enticement. How do you get the woman, as a man, to get turned on? You touch her like this. The Trojan Horse of seduction for a man, the simple thing is, "How about a massage? You want a massage?" That's seduction. It's a very crude form of it, but it works every time because you are enticing the person into it. So again, a lot of women, in that case where the man doesn't seem to be interested in them, they're putting on a laundry and stuff like that, they have this real expectation. It's almost like a nagging, like a haunting type of "look at me, have sex with me." Whereas if you sedate, if you slow it down a bit and you're trying to woo the guy in, and you're trying to seduce him, get him turned on, get him moving in your direction, that's... And again, that might even be some part of seduction is a pullback. The pullback is part of it. So, true, you give them a little bit.

Nicole: Exactly, you do the pullback on it. So, I would say that study seduction, and that's something that I think there's just not a good resource. There's not a lot of information for women to learn how to be good at seducing.

John: Well, what I've taken away from our guys romanticizing women and women romanticizing men is that it's true what they say, that you have to always treat your partner like you're dating them from the very beginning. Men have to do it in the sense of doing the acts and gestures that make a woman feel loved and desired in those ways, you know, the romantic gestures. And women have to do it in the way of pursuing a man that might have other options and might go choose those other options, but you want him to choose you instead. And I think that those things get lost on both sides, and that's why we're here doing these episodes. But you really have to look at your partner like you're still trying to get them for the first time. And I know people say that, and it's hard to put yourself in that mindset, but at the same time, people can visualize things, and they can feel pretty real. So, you can visualize, even if you've been together however many years, right, what it might be like if your husband went out and was single again. And that might light a fire under your ass to be like, "Alright, well, I don't want him messing with anybody else, so I'm going to be what he wants." Because believe me, he's thinking about it. What he's thinking about going out there. Oh, I mean, he's thinking about what would it be like if you're not showing him respect, if you're not showing him any kind of desire at all, especially if you're not giving him sex at all. If that's not happening, then he's thinking about how it would be out there, just like a woman would think about if a guy treated her this way.

Nicole: Exactly. So, that is the key. And if you look at it again, to tie a ribbon on it, I've coached men for a long time now, and when I coach them on marriages or when they talk about the biggest complaint that men ever have in marriages and long-term relationships is that she doesn't have the enthusiasm for sex like she used to. They're like, "Remember when we were dating, and you just couldn't wait to tear my clothes off, and for us to, you know, you just were going crazy. You had to have sex with me." And then a lot of times, women dismiss that, and they'll say, "Oh well, yeah, you can't expect that now because we're married, we're living together, we have it all the time." And as soon as I hear that, I'm like, "Oh man, you really shouldn't have said that." Because guys will tell me that, and I'm like, "That's exactly the same as if a woman complains, 'You never take me on dates anymore. Remember how romantic you used to be?' And he's like, 'Oh yeah, well now we're living together, and, you know, I don't really need to do that anymore.'" Boom, nail in the coffin. So, it's like women don't even realize that that's exactly the same thing.

Nicole: And just another thing to add is that I do think men also have to encourage their women because it's very hard for a woman to initiate and be seductive when she feels like she's shut down by the guy, or like he also is just treating it like he's just trying to get laid. You know, there are plenty of guys out there who are very vanilla in bed too. I'm not saying that that's the main cause, but I'm just saying, like, for men, a piece of advice would be to hype up your woman when she's doing the things that you like because that will entice her. And the same with women to men. Like, if he's getting you your favorite flowers or doing these other gestures to show you how much he loves you, you need to hype that up. You need to positively reinforce those things because one, it makes it easier for them to keep doing it, guy or woman, and it makes your partner feel good at the same time. Like, they feel good, they know that they're doing it the way that you like, and so they can continue on a path that's going to make you more and more happy, if that makes sense.

John: Which you brought up an important point. Oh, there are so many little pieces, but you said also, because I think this is a problem we didn't address because I didn't even think about this, but it is a problem, is that a lot of times, a woman might not even feel as much desire for a man because he just doesn't care either. He's not very good in bed, he doesn't... So, what do you do in that situation?

Nicole: Well, that's where you buy John's course.

John: I'm just kidding.

Nicole: For your husband, give it to him. He'll learn all the skills. Trust me, you want him to get John's course if he ever makes one. That one definitely won't be PG-13.

John: Yeah, I mean, he has to learn some of these things. But vocalize what you like, what you don't like. That's one thing that women aren't very good at, is in the bedroom, saying, "I like this, I don't like that." As a guy, you should be asking those questions. That will help too because a guy is eager to please a woman. A lot of times, guys don't even think that they can, or they don't even understand. Some of the talks I've had with guys about sexuality, I'm amazed that they made it through grade school and didn't learn about the stuff that they should have learned about.

Nicole: Maybe you need to put together a list of resources because obviously, you have a lot of knowledge.

John: Yeah, that wouldn't be bad. There are some circumstances where the woman feels like the guy isn't that into it or he doesn't care about her pleasure, and that makes it really hard to want to do something when it's not that enjoyable. But you can get better at it, guys. And that's the thing, you have to want to, and women have to know also, without going into different subjects, but they have to know it's different. For a guy to get there, it's pretty easy. But a lot of women don't even know how to get there on their own. If you don't know how to get there on your own, that guy's probably got no chance at all. So, you got to figure that stuff out and work on yourself. A lot of women don't work on their own sexuality. And I want to say too that women shouldn't be afraid, especially if you're married, you're in a serious relationship. There are plenty of women who don't do certain things because they feel embarrassed or insecure. And granted, their partner should make them feel comfortable.

Nicole: Yeah, that's very important for women to open up and do more things. But don't be afraid to explore things with your partner and try things that maybe you're self-conscious about because most of the time, guys aren't worried about the things that women are worried about. So that's another little tidbit. But before we go, our segment for the week. So we didn't really have anything, thank goodness, no staying up till 2 in the morning talking. But I did get a random text message while John was gone that said "miss you," and I was like, I have no idea who this is. I immediately took a screenshot and sent it to John, and he was like, "Do you know this person?" And I was like, figure it out. But I was like, you know, it could be somebody from a dating app a long time ago.

John: Yeah, 'cause they lived in Florida. So I was like, when you asked me so and so in Florida, and I was like, this name does not ring a bell. And I didn't give out my number a lot, so I was like, I have no idea.

Nicole: And John was like, "I believe you." And you know, he's like, "It's weird that he said 'miss you,'" which I get that because, and too, I think sometimes guys say stupid stuff like that.

John: Oh yeah.

Nicole: When they say it, so that when they pop back up, you're like, "Oh, he's thinking of me," and you're more likely to go hang out with this person again, even though it's been three, four years.

John: Right, yeah.

Nicole: But at the same time, too, it made you be like, why would somebody say "miss you"? It doesn't necessarily look like a booty call, but it is. But it's like also, it's sufficient. Like, you got to respond to that. That's the idea. But anyway, guys, listen up. What I did with that text is I messaged that guy, and I was like, "Hey, you just sent my wife 'miss you.' Who are you? What are you doing?" So he responded politely and was like, "Oh, whoops. Congratulations on getting married. It was from a dating app. I'll delete it now." So, but guys, you got to follow up with that.

Nicole: Right, glad you did that. I wasn't like, I didn't want to have to tell you, like, "Hey, can you text this person?" But when you were like, "I texted him," I was like, good. I'm like, 'cause I don't want anybody contacting me. And to be honest, you think as a woman, it's been 3 years, right? This person has to know that, like, yeah, do they not, like, you're gone, like you're expired. But in a man's mind, they never expire. So they're like, "I can just send a 'you up?'" Yeah, exactly. That's what they do when they get desperate and low. They're like, "Who can I message that might still be single?" And in his defense, I was single for a long time, so who knows, he probably thought maybe she's three more years single. I don't know. But at the same time, I'm like, I don't want to talk to this person. I wasn't going to respond. I also didn't want him to do the typical guy thing where he's like, "Hey, hey, what's up?" So I'm glad that you did text him. But at the same time, I didn't want to be like, "Hey John, can you text this guy?" That's what I'm saying, is the guys, like, you should do that. Like, again, it's not 'cause I don't trust, didn't trust you. It was more like, it's a protective thing. It's like, "What you doing, you talking to my wife? Get the fuck out of here." Like, you know, like, so I would have done the same thing if some random woman texted you.

Nicole: So, but yeah, that's our thing. And guys, don't pop up randomly after however many years. Like, let it die. Let a woman reach out to you. Actually, like, if you're a guy, don't pop back up 3 years later. Let a woman reach out to you.

John: I three years, I don't know. Like, I mean, I don't know the precise, it's minimum years. I'm just saying like, it's, you know, the woman's just going to reach out here. You can say something, but just don't say "miss you." Just, I don't know, I'd say wouldn't do. If it's been three years, let it die. It's a Hail Mary. You're throwing Hail Marys, you know. It's like, okay, hey, one of those Hail Marys will come through.

Nicole: But not if you message Nicole, 'cause that Hail Mary ain't coming through.

John: So no, a message from, and don't message John either, 'cause I will text you.

Nicole: He's nicer than me. He's like, "Hey, this is her." I would have been like, "Fuck, don't text my man. I don't care who the hell you are." It'll be like, "This is your cleaning service," and I'll be like, "Oh."

John: Sorry, but yeah, just don't do it. Go find someone else. Alright, well, before we part, make sure that you leave us a review on iTunes, as we said in the beginning. You know, we like to read your reviews, and if you ever have any topics you want us to cover, send them in a DM or something, or email us because I've been meaning to post a thing to get people's ideas on topics.

Nicole: Yeah, and I'll throw this out here. If you're having relationship issues, if you have a question or something, obviously, you could ask us. But if you're in San Diego and you're having some relationship issues or whatever, and you want to have a live coaching session with us, you could be on. Yeah, it will be live, so you have to be okay with talking on air, but yeah, we could do some of that.

John: Alright, that's it for this week. See you next time. Bye. Through every fault, we find our way.