John [00:00:00]: The natural state is for the honeymoon phase to not ever go away. The way that it happens is through one word, which is bitterness.

Nicole [00:00:09]: Like loving somebody for who they are to their core.

John [00:00:12]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:00:13]: Is what keeps that honeymoon phase and what gets you through anything in life. The good things you do, the questionable things you do. Like all those things you don't do.

John [00:00:23]: A lot of those things, like cutting my hair.

Nicole [00:00:27]: Made it a little questionable.

John [00:00:28]: But beyond the perfect, we discover through.

Nicole [00:00:31]: Our flaws, we complete each other.

John [00:00:35]: Better than perfect. We stay through every fault we find our way. Welcome to the better than perfect podcast, where we show you how two imperfect people helping each other become better equals one better than perfect relationship. I bet you didn't think I was going to get that, Nicole, did you?

Nicole [00:00:58]: I figured it was 50. 50, but you did good.

John [00:01:02]: Yeah. Welcome back. This is like episode four now, is it? I think so.

Nicole [00:01:08]: I can't believe it's already episode four.

John [00:01:09]: Yeah, we're past the podcast honeymoon phase.

Nicole [00:01:14]: Oh, that's a good way to segue, right?

John [00:01:17]: Exactly. So we're going to talk about today. Is the honeymoon phase in relationship?

Nicole [00:01:23]: Honeymoon phase?

John [00:01:25]: Yeah. Is it a thing? Is it. I mean, so here's. I'll pose it as a controversial statement, which is that people say that there is a honeymoon phase and that it lasts at the most a year, maybe two years. I think most people say it lasts a year, and then after that, the relationship is markedly different and it's just a chemical thing that happens in your brain and you can't control it. And all relationships have a honeymoon phase. And so whatever you think that you're feeling now, you're not gonna feel it later. What do you think about that?

Nicole [00:02:04]: Well, actually, you inspired something within me. I'm a type of person to see both sides anyway.

John [00:02:11]: Right.

Nicole [00:02:12]: So what you pinged into my head was that I do think there's a honeymoon phase.

John [00:02:20]: Oh, okay.

Nicole [00:02:21]: In a way where when something is new and you haven't really hit these, like, big, like, hurdles in your life or like, big situations that can cause some of the, like, turbulence that it does seem like so light and easy and airy, and you're just getting to know each other and. And you're just basking in the goodness, you maybe went from being single, maybe a little lonely and really wanting to find somebody, and you find somebody and you have that instant gratification from getting that, so it gives you an extra little high. However, I don't think that it is something that should disappear. I think that it transforms into something else. If you wanna Call it the honeymoon where you're like, everything's light and airy and beautiful. I do think that still happens, but it's just because you haven't gotten deep enough yet. But I don't think that it just disappears. And then now you guys are like basically roommates and you just learn to tolerate each other, which is what a lot of people kind of like, say and expect. And I think part of people say that because they don't want to give people unrealistic expectations. However, I think that if you're looking at relationships that way, then that in itself is kind of an issue, you know, like. But at the same time, looking back when I was single, you know, people normalize that so much that you do buy into that and you're like, okay, well, maybe this is how it's supposed to be. Especially if you haven't had a relationship where your honeymoon phase lasts and it never goes away, or if it gets even better. So I understand why people fall into that mindset, especially if they haven't experienced what you and I have and what we talk about a lot. But at the same time, I think it's important to realize that if it's going from this high high to this low maintenance sort of phase, then you might need to ask yourself what's missing here? Like, is this something I want to commit to long term? You know, it's all about, like, where you want your life to be, right? Because, like, sure, maybe some people are comfortable having that honeymoon phase and then they get comfortable and it's maybe not the like, most euphoric thing that it once was, but they can handle the chaos. And a lot of times that's from, you know, past trauma of their life. Maybe their family life was chaotic. And so chaotic relationships kind of feel normal to them. So maybe even though they're not like happy, this is like something that they don't mind staying in.

John [00:05:12]: But do you feel like. So I guess the question is though, is there such a thing? Like, is it.

Nicole [00:05:18]: Well, is it like where it's one extreme and then not like a different.

John [00:05:22]: Is it something that every relationship has to go through? Because there's a lot of people that would say that every relationship will go through a honeymoon phase. And then after the honeymoon phase, it doesn't mean that necessarily has to be bad. But you're not in the honeymoon phase anymore, right?

Nicole [00:05:37]: Well, I think, like I said, I guess we have different definitions, right? My definition of the honeymoon phase would be what I just gave you, where it's like, it's new. You don't really know each other. You're really excited. You're doing things for the first time together, which is that, like, honeymoon sort of feeling. And I do think every relationship has that. However, I don't. Like, personally, I don't equate that with, like, then everything goes downhill, which most people do equate that to. I think there is something honeymoon about it. Like, you just got married. Like, the reason it's called honeymoon is, like, you just got married.

John [00:06:12]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:06:13]: So this is new. Right. And a lot of people, again, this kind of goes back to our marriage episode, which you can watch that one. But, you know, like, some people treat marriage as this thing where, oh, it's like, leading up to marriage, and then everything's downhill after that. Because that's what they put it up to be. Right?

John [00:06:31]: Right.

Nicole [00:06:31]: So I think, like, if you view it that way, then it's gonna be that way, but not, you know, you shouldn't see it in that lens. I guess, like, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Like, I guess I'm literally viewing it as, like, every relationship has this newness to it in the very beginning. But personally, I don't think that that should diminish. I think it should grow.

John [00:06:57]: So I guess that's the thing. Yeah, that's the thing is. So you're saying that every relationship has this newness in the beginning. Like, it is a thing in the beginning for l really. I mean, if it's not happen, you got like, why? What are you doing?

Nicole [00:07:10]: Right.

John [00:07:10]: Exactly. But it doesn't have to go away.

Nicole [00:07:14]: Right.

John [00:07:15]: And that's the thing is. Right. Because most people would say that it. No, you can think that it doesn't have to go away, but it does have to go away because it will go away, and there's nothing you can do to prevent it. That's. I think that would be. If we polled the audience, I think 80% of the audience would say that it has to go away and there's nothing you can do about it.

Nicole [00:07:33]: But I would say, why does it have to go away?

John [00:07:36]: Let's talk about that. That's what we should talk about.

Nicole [00:07:38]: Does it have to go away because you can't live on your honeymoon for the rest of your life? And maybe that's why they call it the honeymoon phase. I don't know.

John [00:07:45]: Well, what does it look like to not go away? I suppose that's maybe that we could answer that question.

Nicole [00:07:51]: Yeah. I think you have, like, what I would describe as the honeymoon Phase, you know, that newness and then, like, with us. Cause that's the only way I can, like, kind of explain it is that, like, the more you go through things, like, like, hard things, or the more you, like, dive into who somebody is, you end up loving them more for those things, and you end up, like, working through things that you maybe wouldn't even have been able to work through with other people. And so it brings you closer. Rather than separating, that honeymoon part of the beginning of the relationship and also by, like, going on dates, like, continuing to, like, romance each other, keeps that going. And I think just, like, genuinely caring and having love and respect for the person that you're with, even amongst some of the, like, more, you know, turbulent times can cause you to still have this high that a honeymoon phase would give you. And it's. You're not going down, because even, like, when you're in a hard spot, you're not, like, going backwards or going down from this level of love and honeymoon euphoria. And once you're actually through that part, you actually get stronger and you go up. I would say that you go from honeymoon phase to whatever this higher level is.

John [00:09:23]: The higher. Okay, okay. So. Yeah.

Nicole [00:09:25]: Which I don't know what it's called.

John [00:09:27]: But I would almost say, even though that I agree with that. But I would say also that the honeymoon phase, like, the euphoria of the honeymoon phase doesn't even really have to wear off either. Right. So I would use, like, for example, our relationship as an example. The only example, the better than perfect example, is that we still pretty much want to spend all our time together.

Nicole [00:09:49]: Yeah. Which was not normal. I just want everybody to know that, like, that wasn't normal for me. And I don't think for you either. But, like. No, I mean, when John and I first moved in together and my mom came over, she was like, you're sitting next to him on the couch. Like, what are you doing? And that is a very real thing. Like, I didn't want to even sit next to the person I liked.

John [00:10:15]: That's definitely not the norm. But when I'm. It shows for you. Yeah.

Nicole [00:10:21]: You know, I just had this, like, different experience with you. I wanted to, like, show you affection and be around you. And like, you said, like, even to this day, I would say if we fit into the conventional honeymoon phase, we wouldn't want to be around each other as much as we still do, because we have spent basically every day together since we met, and we continue to.

John [00:10:40]: Do that and continue to want to do that where it's like, when we have the time alone, we want to be together. I think most people are like, oh, well, I need some time away, or I want to get away. I want to get some time to myself.

Nicole [00:10:54]: But you don't realize you get that in other ways, like when you're doing your hobby, you know, or when you're at work or when you're, like, running an errand. Like, those are your you times. Or like, at night, you can be like, hey, I'm gonna go to bed a little bit earlier. Like, you can still have your you time.

John [00:11:10]: Right. But you're not seeking it out, I guess, is what I'm saying. It's like you're not seeking to get away.

Nicole [00:11:14]: It's not like you value the time with your partner almost to the same level or maybe even weirdly, a little bit more than your you time that you did. I'm not saying that you don't need it, but I'm just saying that, like, some people, their relationship has gone to this, like, just maintenance level, and so they kind of either don't feel like they need or can rely on that connection in some sort of way, so they spend more time alone, because that's what they can rely on. That's what's constant. That's what they can predict. But I think that's a whole. Maybe another. Another segment of this larger idea that we're talking about. But, yeah, it's a pretty complicated yet simple thing. Well, it's complicated because people expect it the way that you're saying. A lot of people do. They're like, it's a honeymoon phase, and then you face reality. They call it reality, but it's like, I don't feel like we're not living a reality. Yes. It's like an ideal version, I think, and you think. And some would say, but it's a reality. But people just maybe don't feel like they can obtain that.

John [00:12:27]: Yeah, yeah, I would. I mean, I would classify it as saying you actually want to be you. You still are excited to see the person. Right, Right. That you want to spend all your time with them. That you don't get sick of each other. Right. Even if you're together all the time on a trip or something like that. Going on a trip is a good. A good example. Right.

Nicole [00:12:50]: That's a good way to test a.

John [00:12:52]: Relationship that you don't snip at each other, get snippy. Right. Almost. I mean, any relationship I've ever been in, I've been snippy or someone or. You know. You know what I mean? You're snippy. We're never snippy. We never are snapping at each other or getting irritated with each other, really.

Nicole [00:13:14]: But I think that, too, is, like, having a really high respect for the person you're with and, like, really knowing them.

John [00:13:22]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:23]: Because it's like, I. I know that it would hurt you if I snipped at you. And I'm. I've snipped at people. I've sniffed at plenty of people.

John [00:13:29]: Yeah, for sure. I have, too. Yeah.

Nicole [00:13:31]: So it's like, I know that it's within me.

John [00:13:33]: Right.

Nicole [00:13:34]: But that's never. That side of me is never, like, brought up, even when we have, like, difficult conversations or anything like that. Because it's like, I don't want to hurt you just because I'm upset. I'd rather like us talk about it, like, actually communicate. And maybe that's too. Because we are two people who value communication and really know how important it is to get through things and work through things and, you know, process all of that. And some people don't necessarily have that. Cause I can see where women maybe get snippy from, like, a women's perspective. Because sometimes guys don't want to listen, and they don't, you know, know how to listen, even. And so it can be really frustrating, and they feel like there's nothing they can really do. And I'm not saying that, like, it's okay to be snippy, but I'm just saying I can see where it, like, comes from. It's like the frustration of, like, trying to have that communication and then being, like, shut down. And then it's almost like a child having a temper tantrum type of thing, because they just. They feel out of control. They can't do anything sort of thing.

John [00:14:39]: Right, Right. Yeah. But I mean, I guess it's like. I guess what it comes down to is what I'm trying to say is that it. You can carry over those things, like, from the honeymoon. Because in the honeymoon phase, the quote, honeymoon phase, you're not getting snippy. Right. You're showing your best behavior, but the relationship can still be like that. It is somewhat different in the sense that it's not the newness of it, but. But all of the other qualities of the relationship still can carry over and you can get there. So maybe it's worth talking about how. Because I don't think most people have experienced this. Right. Because I don't know, you probably haven't experienced this in the past. I haven't experienced this in the past. Right. So how does someone get there? And we've been together for three years, so not like, decades.

Nicole [00:15:29]: Super long time.

John [00:15:30]: Yeah, not a super, super long time, but certainly long enough where. Well, and also, I'll qualify it this way, too, to say that we've been together for three years, but in that time, we've spent pretty much every day together. Yes. Literally, I work from home and you're at home, and then every night, we are together all the time. We're spending all our time together.

Nicole [00:15:56]: Yeah. And we always eat together and all that kind of stuff.

John [00:15:59]: So even though we've only relatively short time, three to three years, we've been together for. Spent more time together than most people who have been together for 10 years.

Nicole [00:16:09]: It feels like a really long time. In a good way.

John [00:16:11]: Right? In a good way. And that's what I'm saying is. So how can. What makes this different? How have we escaped the honeymoon phase? Like, of. Of. Of having it fade away?

Nicole [00:16:24]: Yeah, I mean, that's really hard, but I think it's some of the key components. We already kind of.

John [00:16:30]: What have you done differently?

Nicole [00:16:34]: See, it's like, I don't feel like I've done anything intentionally different. I just feel like. Like who I am and the partner that I felt like was ideal for me.

John [00:16:47]: Right.

Nicole [00:16:49]: Like, and how they would mesh is what we are. Does that make sense? And so, like, that's why I'm telling you. I'm like, I have snipped at people before, and I have had honeymoon phases that die out, so I did believe all those things. Right, Right. But it's like, I've always been a person who's tried to better myself and work on myself, because I feel like everybody in the whole world is always working on something, and we will be for the rest of eternity. But it was really hard finding somebody who kind of felt the same way. And so when I was with people that maybe didn't have the same kind of values, I felt kind of like stuck. Right. Like, I felt like I hit a wall. But like you said, like, in the honeymoon phase, you don't really know that about them yet. Right. So you're having fun, you're going on dates. You're, like, just enjoying each other, and you're enjoying the good parts that they're showing you. And, you know, you haven't really run into anything messy yet. But then when you get to that part and you run into something that's maybe like, a deal breaker, or, like, goes against what you would necessarily, like, morally do or something like that. You know, like, something where it feels like it doesn't align. It can be, like, a bunch of different things.

John [00:17:58]: Right.

Nicole [00:17:59]: But maybe it's not as severe as, like, you don't want to necessarily break up with this person over it. So you try to, like, push through, and then you get into this, like. Like, I call the maintenance. You know, like, you're just doing the things to, like, cohabitate and, like, still be together. But it's not. It's lost the, like. I don't want to say joy that makes it sound so bad, but it's like. Because there are good moments, like, don't get me wrong, but it's lost that, like, I want to be with you all the time and, like, go on the dates. Because now you're like. You run into this thing and you're like, oh, actually, well, maybe, you know, maybe I do want to, like, go do this by myself. And then that leads to more and more kind of like living separate lives, but together. Which is what I feel like is actually happening when people say their honeymoon phase is gone.

John [00:18:51]: Yeah. Okay, let me give you my analysis of it and see if you agree with it, then of why. Why does it occur. I would say that this. That it's. This is that the natural state is for the honeymoon phase to not ever go away. It's unnatural for it to fade away, even though that's a majority of the time. But the way that it happens is through one word, which is bitterness. It's grudges. I think what happens is that. And that's why people get snippy and irritated. Is that what happens, is that people let a little bit of it into the relationship. Right. So if I start to dislike you in some way, like, something about you irritates me, and I don't address that. I mean, even if I just. Even to let it irritate me, like there's something going on. But let's say that issues are not addressed. And so I start to get bitter against you for this thing. Right. And then now that thing starts to irritate me. And now every time I see you and you do this thing, I have this little irritation. So now I'm, you know, doing something in the kitchen, and you come in and. And you say something, and I'm like, stop bothering me. I'm like. Or, you know, whatever. I. I snap. I was like, you go check it yourself. Go look in the closet, whatever it is. Yeah. You know, go look for yourself. Like, why you got to bug me when I'm busy? Can't you see I'm busy right now? You know, any of those. Those are the snippy things that we haven't said to each other. Right? So. So I think then that happens, and then that causes a hurt on the other person's side, and then that doesn't get resolved. Then they have the hurts, they don't talk about it. And so you get that feedback where you're hurting each other, hurting each other unconsciously. But bitterness is building up on both sides, so you're causing that separation to occur over time. And that's what happens, is that you no longer have that. You know, when I look at you, when I think about you as a person, I have nothing that I dislike. I have no animosity towards you.

Nicole [00:21:00]: That's hard for people to say.

John [00:21:01]: I have no animosity towards you. Right. I'm not to say that you're perfect and nothing you have done has ever been something that I've. I've taken offense or had an issue with. But all of those things we've addressed to a point where I. I don't have them, and they never built up. They. I guess that's how I could put it is that they've never built up.

Nicole [00:21:23]: And I feel like it's probably inspired me yet again with a little tidbit, because I like what you were saying. It really, like, sparked something in me because we were talking about how, you know, I've never, like, not snipped at somebody before, but I also. And I've told you this, I've never, like, really liked somebody for who they are.

John [00:21:45]: Right.

Nicole [00:21:46]: That sounds so horrible. But I'm gonna be the one telling the actual truth so that people understand that they can, like, reflect and be like, oh, well, that might be what's happening here, too, because that is a big deal. And I think that back then I thought I was liking somebody for who they really are, but there were still little things that kind of bothered me that I was just like, okay, well, everybody had. Nobody's perfect. So maybe this isn't a big deal. And it's not that you don't have things that you do that I'm like, I wouldn't do that. Or necessarily things like that you do. But it's like, despite those things, I still love you for who you really are. Like, the good things you do, the questionable things you do. Like, all those things, the questionable things you don't do.

John [00:22:37]: A lot of those, like, Cutting my hair made it a little questionable, but.

Nicole [00:22:42]: I didn't cut myself. That's good. That would have been interesting. But yeah, so I think, like, that is when I was really like, oh, I have never really liked somebody for who they are at their core. And even in the very beginning, I knew I liked you for who you were.

John [00:23:01]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:02]: But I really figured that out when, like, we faced certain things. Right. Because it's like, you do have that honeymoon phase, like everybody does, no matter what. But it's like. Like loving somebody for who they are to their core.

John [00:23:16]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:23:16]: Is what keeps that honeymoon phase and what gets you through anything in life.

John [00:23:21]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:22]: And keeps you on that level of honeymoon or beyond that.

John [00:23:26]: But it's also a choice that you make, right. It is like you choose to love someone to their core, but you have to choose the right person where you're like, now I'll do it.

Nicole [00:23:34]: Because it is harder to do that when, like, you're who you are inside is like, resisting that. Like, it's really bothering you about these things. So, yes, you can. Like, it is a choice. It's always a choice. But I will say that, like, choose wise. It was an easy choice. Yeah, it was an easy choice. It becomes an easy choice for many reasons. So I think that it's like, I'm not saying that if you're in a relationship that you had the honeymoon phase and now it's like, mellowed out. That, like, it can't be fixed. But I think if you are single and, like, looking for somebody, then you really need to be, like, really invested in doing that and, like, really serious and, like, really trying to find somebody that aligns on carefully things in your life that. Because it does help that me and you value communication and we want to grow and those sort of things. Like, I. I don't think I could have been with somebody, no matter who they were, that, like, didn't care about personal development or communicating.

John [00:24:42]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:24:42]: Because I was so in that zone.

John [00:24:45]: Right.

Nicole [00:24:46]: That it just. It would have been set up for failure. And like, I'm sure you can relate to that too. But, you know, so there were other things that I think have to align. And that's why I'm saying, like, certain things like that do have to be in alignment or, you know, something that you guys are working towards. Like, I don't think you have to be perfectly healed to find your person. Cause I think you can heal a lot of things with your right person. Because I've gone through a lot of things with you in our three years that we've been together. And I'm very grateful for that. But.

John [00:25:16]: And that's why we call it better than perfect as well. Right. Is because it. It isn't like some people go through the honeymoon phase and that's perfect, and then they drop off into worse than perfect, and then they're like, it's not perfect anymore. In fact, that's what people think that the end of the honeymoon phase is. Is. It's perfect. And now that illusion of perfection is shattered, and now they're like, oh, okay, this is the reality.

Nicole [00:25:39]: Right.

John [00:25:40]: In our case, yeah, we still had the illusion of the perfection. We noticed that. That obviously you can't uphold the illusion of perfection.

Nicole [00:25:48]: Right.

John [00:25:49]: But then we move to a better than perfect because we didn't build up the grudges against each other. We actually in. In a way improve the quality of the relationship. It's a different. It's like before the honeymoon phase, like, if you're going to call it in our relationship is a blind sort of love. Right, Right. But most people, when they take off the blindfolds, then they're like, oh, you know, and it's not good. But in our case, we take off the blindfolds and we've been able to make that, oh, it's even better now that the blindfolds are off.

Nicole [00:26:23]: Right. And I think honestly, too, it's kind of like the jock in high school who had everything and then he graduates and he lives his whole life going back to the high school football moment. People who are so set on honeymoon phase being the best part of their relationship, and then it's not as great. They almost have to go back to that to be happy. And I would think it almost makes you depressed being like, oh, well, it was like this when we first got together, and now this is the reality that would make me.

John [00:26:59]: Yeah, that's depressed.

Nicole [00:27:00]: Depressed, exactly. You know, like, thinking about, like, oh, well, where did this go? You know? And to be honest, like, one person can't get that back. Like, it has to be both people working together. Like, one person cannot realize, hey, like, maybe we could always have the honeymoon phase and then get it back.

John [00:27:21]: Although I'll disagree a little bit there. Oh, so this is what I was saying. Yeah, sort of. So I would say that taking it from the frame of a man. Right. What? The masculine. The leader. Right. A man being a leader in a.

Nicole [00:27:32]: Relationship, the man can take it back.

John [00:27:35]: I'll tell you that this is what happens in most relationships, as my experience in coaching a Lot of guys. And seeing these things devolve into this is that what happens is this. Is that everything starts off great. Honky dory, right? You're in the honeymoon phase. And then the man doesn't really understand how to love a woman. So it's stuff we talked about before, right? It's about validating her emotions. He thinks he's loving her, but he's not validating her emotions. He's not taking her out on dates anymore. It doesn't have to be a date, but that. That trying to Romancing her. The romancing. The romancing part of it, right? So he's not doing those things, so she doesn't. And again, what is the number one problem? 99% of the time, guys, whenever a woman tells you whatever she's telling you, that is the problem. It's not the problem. She's. She doesn't. She's wrong, okay? It's that she doesn't feel.

Nicole [00:28:34]: Don't tell her she's wrong, though.

John [00:28:35]: Yeah, don't tell her.

Nicole [00:28:37]: Then you're really gonna dig yourself in a hole.

John [00:28:39]: And you can. You can tell me if I. If you disagree with this, but the problem is that she doesn't feel loved in that moment. And she doesn't even realize that that's what the problem is. Like there. She's not mad because you forgot the groceries.

Nicole [00:28:50]: She's trying to find something to, like, reconnect with you. And most of the time, guys further sever the connection because then they feel attacked and then they get offensive, and then that pushes her more away, and so then she feels more unloved. So it's like. It is complicated.

John [00:29:06]: But whatever thing she's saying, she's saying this thing, but what she's really communicating is I'm not in this moment, I'm not feeling loved, and I need to feel your love right now. Women are bad a lot of times at expressing that because they'll come. But sometimes, a lot of times that comes across as nagging, right? Especially as. As she's gone without feeling love for a long time, right? And she doesn't know how to ask for it. Ask for the help, ask for or whatever it is, you know? But she doesn't know how to ask for the help. But you don't. But you don't. But you don't do that. But you know what I mean? But. Yeah, but. But in general, right? She doesn't know how to ask for that, right? And so the. The man responds in a way that makes her feel even more unloved. Right, right. And so when a woman doesn't feel loved, she feels pretty bitter. She's like, right? And that's where she's nagging the guy. That's where when they get into an argument, she's yelling at him, she's calling him names, she's doing all kinds of crazy stuff and saying all kinds of crazy stuff. Because out of desperation, she's like, I am trying to show you how upset I am.

Nicole [00:30:12]: Right?

John [00:30:13]: That's why I'm calling you these crazy names. So you can really. It's not because she wants to insult you or insult your manhood, but she'll hit you, stab you right in the heart, guys, right? Because she's trying to make you feel. What she's feeling, which she doesn't even know how to express, is that it's a lack of love. So that is what degrades the relationship to the point where the honeymoon phase fades out. And so coming back full circle to, can one person fix this? Honestly, usually the man can. Because if the man. Because remember again, it does take two people to make a relationship, but women are mostly responders and guys are initiators. And so a woman is a reflection of the man that she's with. And a woman is going to respond or react to what the man is putting out. The vibe, the energy, the leadership of the relationship. He's going to lead the relationship one way or the other. Whether he thinks he's leading it or not, he's leading it. Right? And so if a man suddenly turns around and says, hey, this ship is sailing in the wrong direction, and he doesn't say to her, hey, you need to change. You need to, you know, you need to stop nagging me and do all this. But instead, if he starts validating her motions and starts showing her the love and recognizes in the moment when she's nagging him and he's like, just. Just gives her a hug and just like, you know, shows her he knows what she can't express, right? And starts doing that on his own without looking for anything in return, then he's going to turn her around. And if he doesn't, then he should probably leave the relationship and that and it's over. So it should be going in the direction of the honeymoon, back into it, or it should be exiting. But the man truly is the one who can do. I'm not saying that a very aware woman couldn't turn things around by recognizing why she's nagging and doing those things and say, oh, actually, I'm not feeling loved. And maybe I can tell him that I'm not feeling loved. You know, a very aware woman, maybe watching this podcast, could, could do that. But in general, a man has to realize this. And even if she does do that, if a man doesn't know how to do those things, it's still going to be her. Her needs are not going to be met.

Nicole [00:32:33]: Yeah, it's like a battle you can't win.

John [00:32:36]: Right.

Nicole [00:32:36]: But I think it's important to know at the same time that you have been somebody that has tried to turn a relationship around before, and it's not always salvageable. So that's why I'm saying, like, you know, like, sometimes, but however, needs to just be the end sort of thing.

John [00:32:54]: But however, I didn't have the tools that I have now. I didn't understand women and relationship. But even if I did, what would have happened in that situation? I would have left. Right, right. Because I would have realized the knowledge you would have had that this is not the right. You know, but. Right, but it doesn't, you know, but. But still, you can't really know that until you've done it.

Nicole [00:33:16]: Yeah. And there's actually, I guess the issue is I don't want people to think that they can fix everybody because that gets you stuck in a lot of things. I feel like as women, we feel like fixers. And then from your perspective, men also can feel like fixers. And so it's very though important to, I feel like, understand what is like, normal fixing and like dealing with things in a relationship versus like someone is very committed to their mindset and not going to change no matter what you do. And that is like a battle that you can't win, type of thing that we were talking about. And so, like, and especially from a woman's perspective, like you said, like, it's very hard to convince a man of things as a woman.

John [00:34:01]: It is, it is, it is.

Nicole [00:34:03]: Like, you know, it's. They, they just, they're their own people. I don't even know how to.

John [00:34:09]: Well, I mean, like, it is because, you know, the man is supposed to be leading and whether he realizes it at a, at a cognitive level, at an instinctual level, he knows. And so that's why.

Nicole [00:34:20]: But I'm saying even if a woman is like, aware and like, you know, yeah, it's hard. Knows it's harder what she's talking about. For sure, that doesn't mean that a man is going to believe her and do it or any of those things.

John [00:34:32]: But the same thing if I flipped it. If a man tells a woman, if he's like, look, you need to stop nagging me and you need to stop being this way.

Nicole [00:34:40]: Okay, I understand.

John [00:34:41]: You know, I mean. And he's like, I realize what you're doing. It's not going to, you know, what.

Nicole [00:34:46]: Has to happen, how it's presented, right? Because like, someone just being like, stop nagging me. That's just as bad as being like, go away.

John [00:34:53]: But even presenting it, it's not a good idea because again, the focus. Because you're right, you're. I'm agreeing with you. You don't even real yet. I'll tell you why is because I'm saying no one should ever try to be a fixer. What I'm saying is that your goal, even as a man, even if you're in that situation in the relationship with the woman that's nagging you and all these things, your goal should just be to show her love with no expectation of anything happening in return. Because you will be happier in the relationship just by yourself by doing that. Because then you'll know that you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, right? And it goes both ways. And then, however, if she doesn't respond to that, then you're finding something out about her that should indicate that you probably she either doesn't have a very high desire for you or doesn't care very much about you as a human being. Then you should leave the relationship. But you'll know that you've done. But the point should never be, I'm going to do these things. And now that's going to cause this other person's behavior to change. It's like you recognize the point is to recognize that you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. And then you now rectify that and do that. And then you observe you're not expecting them to change. But if the person is not responding by treating you well, then you make your decision. But it should never be with the outcome to do that because then you're doomed because then you are trying to fix them.

Nicole [00:36:21]: Also maybe is why people get out of the honeymoon phase. Because in the beginning they're like, oh, this person's this. And then they'll maybe notice something that's like a little off to them. And then they're like, oh, well, they'll like fix it later, you know, and they like, are actually falling in love with like the idea of this person or who they can become, right? Rather than who they are in this moment, like if you're in the honeymoon phase and you, you know, come across a little tiff or whatever.

John [00:36:52]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:36:53]: Like you have to look at the person that you're with and be like, if they stayed the exact same, they didn't change anything about them, would I love them to the same amount? Would I love them enough to marry them, to have kids with them? You know, like, those are, are big questions you need to ask in the beginning. Like, and even, you know, like when the honeymoon phase is starting to wear off, if people want to, you know, still use the honeymoon phase sort of thing. Because that will kind of show you if this is somebody that you really want to be with. Like, I remember when I was in a relationship and I like had to look at the person and I was like, if I had a kid with this person and that kid turned out just like that person, right. Would I be happy? Like, would I be proud? Would I be able to do, deal with two of these people and legitimately I thought, no. And then when I realized that I was like, this is bad, like, what am I doing? And I had to get rid of that because that's not like, when I look at you, I'm like, I could have 20 kids running around and they'd act like you, besides maybe gluing the refrigerator door shut when you were a kid. But you know, things like that will also help you get a good perspective of where you're at, of like your relationship with this person. Because in the beginning all relationships seen sunshine and rainbows, right?

John [00:38:17]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:38:18]: But then once you start getting in a little bit deeper, ask yourself some of these hard hitting questions and see how you guys respond to each other in like an argument or a disagreement. Because that's also very telling. Like the way somebody treats you when they're upset is a very good indicator of like, sometimes of the things, how they feel deep down about you that they're not expressing.

John [00:38:41]: Right.

Nicole [00:38:41]: And so, you know, especially if a.

John [00:38:43]: Man does it, if a woman does it, it's not, it's not always. Because I'll tell you why. Because men are more analytical and so if they say something in anger, it's more likely to be true. Women say I hate you.

Nicole [00:38:59]: I mean, it's not acceptable.

John [00:39:01]: I agree, believe me, I agree with you. But women will say I hate you and they don't mean that. Right. They'll say all kinds of stuff when they're angry and they don't mean it because they're more in the moment, they're more emotional. They're heck, when guys take testosterone trt and, and they take too much, and some of it, or just from some of them, are more sensitive to esterizes. So it converts to estrogen. And when guys have this happen, okay, they get. One of the symptoms is they get super emotional, they start crying, they start like. It's like there's a. When they get a little bit of extra estrogen in their bloodstream, they start to feel emotions at a much magnified level like women do. And so, I mean, so that's why there is a little bit of a.

Nicole [00:39:48]: I feel like it's easier to turn women's anger around than it is for a man. Normally a guy with anger issues, that is something that only he can heal himself from. Like, I'm not saying that guys with anger issues, like, they'll always be angry, right, because they can work on it. But it's like, as a woman, you can't fix that. Like, as a woman, you can't heal a guy's anger issues. And so if he's like, fine towards you, but the second you guys don't agree on something and he like, lashes out on you and like, says all these things to you, like, that is a huge red flag. And so, yeah, we should do a.

John [00:40:23]: Whole episode on anger and how to deal with it.

Nicole [00:40:25]: We definitely could, but.

John [00:40:27]: We could.

Nicole [00:40:27]: What I'm saying is that, like, you know, in order to keep the honeymoon phase for a long time, it's important to ask questions early on to yourself.

John [00:40:36]: Right.

Nicole [00:40:37]: You know, and I guess to them, you know, to figure things out. But if, if you're not aligning, like, you don't have to settle into this thing. You don't have to give up the honeymoon phase. Like, you can have the honeymoon phase to infinity and beyond. And we're not the only people who have had the honeymoon phase continuously. So it's not like we're making this up. This is not like the first instance where the honeymoon phase continues years down the line.

John [00:41:03]: And someone might ask, like, how do we know that it's going to continue to continue? I've asked myself that question. And the way that I know is because it hasn't diminished, it's only increased. I want to spend more time with you. Like, we get along better. We don't. So that tells you that it's. It doesn't mean that it couldn't degrade by the ways that I was talking about. But I'll say also as a man too, again, the leadership thing of setting the frame for the Relationship is very important. So if you're already in the situation, I've talked about what to do. By the way, there's a really good book called Masculine in a relationship by G.S. youngblood that I think every man should read as well as David Deida's book, the Way the Superior Man. Also a good book. Those are the two books, essential books for every man in a relationship should read. Those two books, for sure. But I think also if you're in that situation, we talked about that. But even beginning in the relationship, a man should set some really clear boundaries in that relationship, besides the ones we talked about in the other episode, but in the sense that if a woman starts yelling and raising. They get into it. You're going to get into an argument or some kind of discussion or disagreement, let's say disagreement, it doesn't have to become an argument, but when you get into a disagreement because you. It doesn't matter how perfect your relationship is, you will.

Nicole [00:42:25]: Right.

John [00:42:25]: A man needs to be. Well, he certainly should not be the one perpetrating it, but if a woman starts yelling at him, he needs to set a very clear boundary right there.

Nicole [00:42:34]: At that as well, too. But I would say even like, I'm.

John [00:42:37]: Just saying that the man should. Yeah, yeah. The man should be hopefully leading the relationship in that direction and, and have enough respect for himself and be like, hey, I'm not. We. We don't. You don't raise your voice at me. That's not. I'm not going to be here if you're going to raise him. And then he has to walk when that happened. It doesn't mean end the relationship right at that point, but he has to demonstrate that this is a boundary that will not be crossed, especially name calling. Because guys get to a point where, and believe me, I'm saying this from a guy's perspective because I hear the stories, because I coach guys where I can't believe the amount of names that a woman is calling this guy or disrespecting him. Right. And I've, I've even been there myself to a degree. And he doesn't walk. And, and the reason. How did it even get to the point where a woman punches you? Right? Like, how did it get to that point? It got to the point from when she first raised her voice at you. You did nothing. You just, you continued to argue or maybe you raised your voice back instead of having enough respect to say, look, like, in a nice, loving way, hey, we don't. I don't, I don't appreciate Someone raising their voice at me. And I'm not going to be in a discussion where I'm being yelled at.

Nicole [00:43:48]: I mean, that's a whole nother.

John [00:43:50]: And then you exit. Well, it is, but you exit that.

Nicole [00:43:53]: I know what you mean.

John [00:43:54]: Yeah. Having bad news because it's a gradual slip, because first she yells at you and then, you know, and then she calls you names and then she throws things at you, and then she, you know, it's like. It's a gradual levels of disrespect, right? Well, it is.

Nicole [00:44:11]: Ending is a gradual thing that happens. Like, it doesn't abruptly normally, but people are going from this high to, like, going down. They're like on a sled. They're going down the hill, right? And then they just kind of like, go.

John [00:44:23]: But I'm saying that as a man, you have to catch that and you have to create those boundaries for the relationship, for the. For the entire. The rules of. Of disagreement.

Nicole [00:44:32]: Right.

John [00:44:33]: Is that we don't yell and call each other names and argue.

Nicole [00:44:36]: Right.

John [00:44:37]: And a man has to be putting that into place primarily. I mean, obviously, if he's not in the capacity to do that. So if a man is not able to. A man should be a lot more able to control his temper than a woman should be, because he's not as emotional he should. As a man, he should be more stuck, really. So if you're not that, as a man, you probably shouldn't be in a relationship. Should be working on yourself, to be honest with you. But if you are, then you have to set the gap, the guidelines and the boundaries. So that. And also by doing that in the relationship, you make a woman feel loved and safe because she knows that you are keeping the relationship safe, that you're keeping those boundaries.

Nicole [00:45:14]: Standing up for something. Like, there's a right way to stand up for things. Like, a lot of guys get it confused. They think they have to be controlling and be like, don't do this. That's not a boundary. That's just being controlling. So I do agree with that. I think everybody should have boundaries with relationships. But I understand your perspective on the guy's side.

John [00:45:34]: He's got to lead the way.

Nicole [00:45:35]: I don't think necessarily it's always yelling. I think that is, you know, how things can start. This is where it starts to slip into the things. But I also think, like I said, it's a lot of, in the beginning, just not being aligned. Like, not being in the relationship that really suits you is what I would say causes the slippage. But I understand what you're talking about, though, about not having the boundaries, and maybe that's the guy's side over here. I'm saying women, ass, okay? You ask yourself if you would have a kid with him. But maybe you're saying, like, you know, I need to put these boundaries in place, and if she doesn't do them, then I need to just leave.

John [00:46:13]: And there's a reason why we're both saying two different things on that is because from a man's perspective, these are the things that are important for him to do, right? But a woman has to make a much wiser choice in a man than a man does in a woman. And I'll tell you why. Because a man's going to be the leader. And like you said, it's hard to influence a man as a woman, right? And so a woman. And a woman has to bear a child for nine months. You know, I mean, there's a lot of reasons why a woman has to make a much wiser choice than a man. The consequences for her are much more severe. If you make a bad choice in a man, as a woman, what's going to happen is are you going to follow that guy's leadership? If you're not, you're going to have problems, right? And is he going to lead you in the, in the wrong direction? Is it going to. You know what I mean? Is he a good person at heart? Is he going to stick around? Is he going to raise kids? Is he going to be abusive to the kid? Like, there's a lot of things a woman has to consider in vetting a man's inner character and qualities. Not to say that a man shouldn't do the same for a woman, but it's not as critical because he has more of a role in shaping her than she does in him. Right? A woman is going to have a hard time trying to shape a man's character if he hasn't built his character already. A man could take a woman that, that, that maybe needs a little bit of guidance, and he could help her on her way of growth, you know, in a, in a loving way, like, because he can provide that guidance if he's the leader of the situation. You know, I know that none of all these things sound very politically correct. I'm aware of that. But. But it is. The point of this podcast is not to be politically correct. It's to give people the, the cold, hard truth that that will help them. But, but that is really. That's why you're speaking in those Terms. And that's why I'm speaking in terms that I am.

Nicole [00:47:58]: No, I understand. I just don't want to get too far from our initial question because I think again, we always run into these things that can turn into their own episodes. But. Yeah. So, I mean, what more would you add to the honeymoon phase sort of thing? I feel like we covered a lot of things.

John [00:48:18]: I mean, I would say that what I was just talking about there, that, like I said, that's. That's the thing that will make or break it if of it going out of the honeymoon phase. That's why it's important is because for a guy. Right. That's where the slippage starts, is that if you as a man do not set the boundaries, if you do not respect yourself enough, that if you allow a woman to start to disrespect you and you don't, you're not willing.

Nicole [00:48:44]: But I would say.

John [00:48:45]: And she doesn't.

Nicole [00:48:45]: Because you're saying that's when it starts for a guy. But I would say then it's the woman's responsibility. Because if you don't really like this man, then leave.

John [00:48:56]: Right? Right.

Nicole [00:48:57]: Because if you're getting to a place where you don't like him and now you're upset with him and you're yelling at him, right. Then you should have left. And then he should also leave.

John [00:49:07]: But there is a bit of a testing, too, I think that a woman will do so, for example.

Nicole [00:49:12]: But I think you should be testing when you're dating, like, early on.

John [00:49:16]: Exactly. It is. When you're dating, we're not talking about honeymoon, actually actual honeymoon. We're talk.

Nicole [00:49:20]: No, no. I mean, like dating before you even get to like.

John [00:49:24]: But if we got into a disagreement with, you know, initially. Right. If you got into disagreement with me when we were initially, you know, early on in our relationship, we did.

Nicole [00:49:34]: I was like, hey, your profile said that you were this age.

John [00:49:39]: But, you know, but be honest, right? Because you've done this before in a relationship like most women have. If you felt like I was the kind of guy that was going to just tolerate you yelling at me or calling me a name, you probably would have done it, right?

Nicole [00:49:55]: I don't know.

John [00:49:56]: I mean, you've done it in the past, right?

Nicole [00:49:58]: I haven't, like, I haven't called people a name.

John [00:50:01]: Okay. Let's say not the call. Right. Okay. But if you, if you thought I was the kind of guy that would be okay with those kind of things and not. And not walk, you probably would have done those Things. And again, not because. Not in some kind of, like, manipulative or what would I call it?

Nicole [00:50:19]: I think actually, now that you say that, like, I'm going back to the relationship where I did feel like I could have walked all over the guy. It almost makes a woman more angry.

John [00:50:32]: Right? Exactly.

Nicole [00:50:33]: Because it's like, tell me why. Why won't you do the things that I need you to do, right? Be a man and, like, stand up for her. Like, it's like, not that a woman won't do it herself.

John [00:50:47]: No.

Nicole [00:50:48]: But it's like, if I have this dead weight over here that I'm carrying around, which is my boyfriend at the time who, like, won't stand up for me, why do I need you? Because I could just stand up for myself.

John [00:50:58]: Because it's almost like, if you'll let me talk to you this way. How are you.

Nicole [00:51:04]: I'm not even talking about talking to him.

John [00:51:06]: But it is. But women do think, maybe subconsciously, if you'll let me abuse you in this way, then how can you protect me? Then how are you gonna protect me against someone else? Like, what kind of man are you? Like, you almost getting more upset because he's.

Nicole [00:51:21]: That's a little messed up. But I'm not talking about in the sense where I was, like, berating him and then he was just like, okay, whatever. I'm talking about, like, an instance where, like, someone else said something to me that I felt like I had to stand up for myself, and he was right there.

John [00:51:35]: Right.

Nicole [00:51:35]: So it's like.

John [00:51:36]: But if a man lets you disrespect him, you think he's gonna stand up to other people?

Nicole [00:51:43]: I mean, I.

John [00:51:44]: Or stand up for you, but I.

Nicole [00:51:45]: Don'T think you should disrespect anybody, no matter what.

John [00:51:48]: I agree. I agree. But we're not perfect people. And women do test men in that way.

Nicole [00:51:52]: I know, but there are ways to test men. On the first three dates.

John [00:51:56]: I know.

Nicole [00:51:57]: That will tell you what a man is doing before you even get so involved.

John [00:52:02]: But you're gonna see if. If the guy. How's the guy? I mean, the first time that you. You get into a conflict and you start to move in the direction of maybe raising your voice at him or whatever it is, or for some women, calling him a name, and he doesn't respond to that. He doesn't. He just allows that to happen, you're going to lose respect for him. And you're more likely to treat him more like that because it is going to make you angry.

Nicole [00:52:26]: Some guys Just walk away. They don't just sit there and deal with it. They just walk away. Which I would think is another way of tolerating it.

John [00:52:33]: That is another way of tolerating her. I'm talking about using the. Your most powerful weapon, which is your feet, which is to say.

Nicole [00:52:39]: No, I agree.

John [00:52:39]: Is to walk completely away. Is to say. Not to get upset, not to get into.

Nicole [00:52:44]: Walk away when they're being disrespected. I think men and women should do that.

John [00:52:49]: I agree. I agree. I'm just saying that, again, for a man, it is something that I know.

Nicole [00:52:54]: Is more of a. But actually, what you're saying. And what I'm saying is that it's a woman's responsibility to vet the guy. Leave. Yeah. When you don't feel like you're aligning before you get to a point where you're yelling at somebody, it's a woman's.

John [00:53:07]: Responsibility to vet the guy very carefully.

Nicole [00:53:10]: Right.

John [00:53:10]: It's a man's responsibility to create the guidelines for the relationship, to create those boundaries.

Nicole [00:53:16]: I think sometimes women have a hard time vetting guys because they want love and they want romance, and our biological clocks are ticking, and guys don't really have that. And it's a lot of pressure on women and even, like, stuff in your field of what you do and how, like, women's value seems to go down after a certain time. Like, it's a lot on women.

John [00:53:41]: Oh, yeah.

Nicole [00:53:42]: No, it is. So I get where they're like, you know, they get to a point where.

John [00:53:45]: They'Re like, let me just choose this guy.

Nicole [00:53:46]: Right?

John [00:53:47]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:47]: Like, and it's not good for anybody because, like, she'll end up choosing a nice guy that maybe she doesn't like as much or have as much of a connection.

John [00:53:54]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:53:55]: And then that causes problems. Or she chooses the wrong guy and that, you know, like, he treats her like crap, and that causes problems.

John [00:54:01]: We need to do a whole episode on what can a woman do if she's in that situation. Like, how can a woman influence a man to make him be more masculine, to make him step up and lead? To make him or to help him. To not make him, but help him to do those. Because that is a difficult position to be in. And you can't find every. You can't find all. There's only so many guys that understand these things. Right. I mean, I try to. I try to teach them. I try to teach them, but there are very few of them out there.

Nicole [00:54:30]: I know.

John [00:54:31]: And it is important. I mean, these things are not just you're not just born with this.

Nicole [00:54:35]: What also is important that women need to know is that it's okay to be alone.

John [00:54:39]: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Nicole [00:54:40]: And it's better to be alone. Maybe, you know, as you get older and maybe, you know, I know you want to settle down, but it's way better to be alone than in the wrong relationship. Even a relationship that's just mediocre because, you know, you went from honeymoon to just, like, mediocre. So many people live their lives where they're like, you know, I didn't really love this person. And then it's like, well, what are you doing? Like, because you could be having your you time and loving yourself and putting all that energy into you. And then because you're doing that, you're putting out this positive energy, this loving energy into the universe, which will attract the person that is meant to be with you.

John [00:55:23]: Right.

Nicole [00:55:24]: Because we've talked about it, too. Just a little side thing in regards to that is, like, I felt like I was in my most, like, confident stage of my life when you came along. And I had no expectations for our date. It was probably the only one. I had zero, like, absolute zero expectations. And then here we are. But I think it's important to invest that energy in you and a lot of people. I used to get so mad when people would be like, just love yourself, Nicole. I was single for six years. I was like, I want to meet somebody. You know, And I don't think that's necessarily wrong, but people would be like, love yourself. And I think that's like, it's cliche, but it's true. It's just, like, in a different way. Like, it's like, you know, just invest in yourself. Like, spend time doing things that you love.

John [00:56:11]: Right?

Nicole [00:56:11]: And so that way, when some guy comes along, it's gonna take a guy that really aligns with you to even deter you from this, like, nest of self love and self comfort that you.

John [00:56:23]: Create because you're already good, right?

Nicole [00:56:25]: And then it's easier to vet as well, too, because you're like, well, I'm not, you know, like I said about the dead weight boyfriend. I'm like, you're not gonna add another person into your life that's bringing nothing to your table. I'll be one of those for a minute, you know, like, what are you bringing to my table? But it's true. Like, if a woman has to stay in her masculine when she's dating a man, what is the man bringing to the table?

John [00:56:47]: Right? No, I agree with You. It's the whole loneliness thing again. We could do episode on that too. It's like, if you're in a bad place, a multitude of people can come along and make you in a good place. That doesn't say anything about them.

Nicole [00:57:01]: Right?

John [00:57:01]: Right. If you're already in a good place, if you're in a great place, it takes someone really good to come along to take you to a better place. Otherwise you're like, no, I'm good. Right. But if you're in the pits of despair because you're like, I'm so lonely. I'm so. My life is so bad, you don't love yourself. You can't be alone with yourself. Then you're gonna. Then every single person is gonna seem like they're pulling you out of that pit. Not the. You know what I'm saying? That's why you have to be in a great place by yourself first. Because then you're like.

Nicole [00:57:29]: Then you'll just cling to that.

John [00:57:30]: Then you're going to pass on most of those options because you're like, that's going to move me down. It's not going to move me up. But you already have to be up in order to evaluate someone. That's going to move you where you have synergy, where your relationship becomes better than perfect. That should segue us into the ending. Yeah. Unless you had anything else.

Nicole [00:57:50]: No, I think that was pretty good. I think we went on a lot of tangents, but that's pretty normal for us. Yeah. So our thing for this week.

John [00:57:59]: I.

Nicole [00:57:59]: Was like, what happened this week, John earlier was like, what should I talk about? You're like, figure it out. But I think it actually kind of went with. What we discussed here is like, you know, I was feeling kind of down. Like I'm a definite type of person that takes on other people's energies and so that can really drain me. And so that happened this week. You know, we were going. Not us, but like, you know, our daughter was going through some stuff and I was trying to help her. And it was like long conversations like you and I have. And I just, by the end of it, I was like, I need, like, to sleep for a really long time to, like, regain my energy. Battery back. And I just still felt it, I guess, yesterday. And then, like, I was really, like, getting in my head. And then I just like felt like disconnected from you. And so I was just like, you know, let me just sleep again. Like, sleep is my battery recharge. But then we had a conversation this morning and like, you felt like I was also not, like, showing you love. And I felt like I. You know, like we had both, like, right, kind of, like, done the same thing to each other. We were like, oh, well, like, I'm gonna wait till he comes and, like, says something to me. And then, like, you were like, well, I'm gonna wait till she comes and says something to me. And so we ended up actually, like, just being here. But then, you know, this morning I, like, told you was like, you know, I need you to express your love to me a little bit more. And you were like, I need you to do the same. And so, again, it's that communication and that talking about it. Because if I hadn't said that to you, like, we would have potentially been just, like, quiet for the rest of the week until eventually one of us would have, like, said something or, you know, like, to each other to have this conversation. So it still happens to even us.

John [00:59:44]: Right. But it is important because I think from my perspective, too, what I was looking at is it was like, yeah, you respond to my. My affection. But I was like, I. You know, I was like, I don't know if it's. If it's necessarily, like, the response is great, but is it initiated? Like, if I'm not the one initiating affection, which, again, a man should be primarily the initiator. But then what. What happens? And it was like. And it was like you said, like, you. You were kind of in the down state, and it's like. But it's something we've talked about is that instead of reaching out for help from me, right? You kind of.

Nicole [01:00:20]: Well, and that's something that, like, is not. But we had the conversation to you, right?

John [01:00:24]: I know. Yeah, I know it's not.

Nicole [01:00:25]: Which. We had that conversation, but that's why.

John [01:00:27]: We'Re helping each other grow, right?

Nicole [01:00:29]: Like, you know, operated on one way so long, including, like, still up to now, obviously, because I still do those things, and I'm not gonna be perfect, but I am working on those things. It's like, I didn't grow up in an affectionate family. I was not affectionate at all. Like, I said in this episode that my mom was freaked out. I was sitting next to you on the couch like that. For me, I'm like, you're sitting next.

John [01:00:52]: To your boyfriend on the couch.

Nicole [01:00:54]: Me even coming up to you and being like, hey, I need you to show me a little bit more love that I know you have for me. Can you do that? Was, like, so hard.

John [01:01:03]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:01:04]: You know what? I Mean, like, not because it's, like, hard to talk to you, but because it's like that. I did not have that. Like, yeah. You know, that's so foreign to me that I'm like, what? But you're right. Like, I am learning these things.

John [01:01:17]: But it was the weirdest thing. When your mom. I was like. Because that. That. Just to say how unnatural that was, you know, I mean, not to insult you, but it is unnatural because we were dating. We moved in together, right? And then your mom comes to visit and, like, we're sitting next to each other on the couch. Like, I think I had my arm around you. And she was like, wow. She's like, you're letting him sit next to you on the couch or like, sitting so close.

Nicole [01:01:42]: Right?

John [01:01:42]: And I was like, we are boyfriend and girlfriend and we live together. I mean, but that's like, is this. How is this. And then. And that's when. Because you had told me about it before and you're like, yeah, I'm just not an affectionate person, but with you I am. And I didn't.

Nicole [01:01:55]: You thought I was lying. You thought I was, like, putting.

John [01:01:57]: I didn't realize that. Just with you. Yeah. Just with you. Yeah. That's what you tell every guy, right? It's like, no, but I didn't realize how true that was until your mom said that. And then I was like, oh, I see. And then I was also. At one point, I was like, also like, oh, but. But see, you were being affectionate to me. Because if you weren't, and then that happened, then I would. That would have been major red flag. I would have been like, oh, that's. That's not good. Like, you should probably. Should not be with someone who's not affectionate.

Nicole [01:02:24]: Still affectionate.

John [01:02:25]: But you were to me. To me.

Nicole [01:02:26]: But it's like, at times, like, especially times where I'm, like, upset and like, you know, it's just harder because, like, I didn't have anybody.

John [01:02:35]: Gotta reach out. Initiated.

Nicole [01:02:38]: I just wanted you to know, like, where it stems from, because it's not personal.

John [01:02:42]: No, I know, I know.

Nicole [01:02:43]: And, like, I would think that you would empathize with me a little bit.

John [01:02:47]: Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I do.

Nicole [01:02:48]: Because it's, like, not a normal response. And you know that, like, my mom said that thing to you. I know we've been together for a while, since thin.

John [01:02:55]: Yeah.

Nicole [01:02:56]: And it's like, I have gotten better at a lot of affectionate things, but it's like, especially in times where it's like, you know, a Little.

John [01:03:04]: I think it's just you reaching out. That's the. The thing that's.

Nicole [01:03:08]: That's, again, goes back to what we talked about last week. Like, I can't ask for help. It's, like, all tied together, but you're getting there.

John [01:03:14]: But you've been actually since last we talked. Right. Since the last podcast episode. There were many times where you're like, I need your help. Like, you said those exact words, and it was good. But that's why this whole podcast exists, and that's why the name of the podcast is Better than Perfect, is that we are two people helping each other grow to become one better than perfect relationship. So that's the process. And I have learned so many. I mean, we haven't talked as much about that side of it. I'm sure we'll get into it. But I've learned so many things and grown so much from you as. I thought I had all my ducks in a row. I thought I had, you know, polished the stone. As polished as it could be. And then, you know, and then.

Nicole [01:03:53]: Well, that's what we all think.

John [01:03:54]: Yeah. And then it's like, yeah.

Nicole [01:03:57]: Brings out the things you still need to work on.

John [01:04:00]: And you can't really. I believe that you can only do so much personal development by yourself because you polish that stone and you're like, oh, yeah, I've got it figured out. Like, I am the epitome of. I'm probably enlightened. I'm probably, you know, nirvana, you know, like, whatever. And then you get into a relationship with someone and then all of those.

Nicole [01:04:21]: Well, by yourself, you probably are at that level. But it's when you add someone else into the mix and their feelings and their emotions and their, you know, like, life, like, we do life together, that it's gonna bring up things that aren't gonna even be brought up when you're by yourself.

John [01:04:36]: Exactly. But those are the things that you still need to work on.

Nicole [01:04:38]: Yeah, that's. I mean, you're getting deeper into the things that you need to add a little bit more attention to.

John [01:04:45]: Cause I definitely thought I had it figured out until it came along. And then I was like, oh, shoot, I still am doing these things. I was still being defensive. I still, you know, had to.

Nicole [01:04:53]: Yeah, that still happens from time to time, too, but, yeah, it's a hard one, so. It is.

John [01:04:58]: All right, well, that's it. I guess we'll see you next week.