Nicole [00:00:00]: So that brings us to porn and romance novels. Is pornography cheating porn?

John [00:00:05]: Yes.

Nicole [00:00:05]: Okay.

John [00:00:06]: Like, you are literally seeing people naked and, like, involved in intimate acts.

Nicole [00:00:11]: 95% of guys are addicted to porn. So we're going to get a lot of angry people right now. But I have a question. Okay.

John [00:00:17]: Yeah, I want to know. Guys, perspective. If a woman was watching porn, would a man care?

Nicole [00:00:24]: It's interesting. Beyond the perfect we discover through our.

John [00:00:28]: Flaws, we complete each other.

Nicole [00:00:32]: Better than perfect. We stay through every fault we find our way. Welcome to the better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we show you how two imperfect people helping each other equals one better than perfect relationship. And this week's podcast topic belongs to. Nicole.

John [00:00:56]: Yes, it does. Or are we just going to dive right in?

Nicole [00:01:00]: I mean, I guess we could talk about whatever else you want to.

John [00:01:05]: Happy belated Thanksgiving.

Nicole [00:01:06]: Yeah, it's Thanksgiving for us, but not for you. Have Merry Christmas maybe.

John [00:01:11]: There you go. We might end up lining up perfectly.

Nicole [00:01:14]: Yeah, we'll see. We got to create a little bit of a buffer. So. Yeah. In case we miss a week. So we record in. We are time travelers. So that's.

John [00:01:23]: That's how it works.

Nicole [00:01:24]: Yeah.

John [00:01:24]: All right. Yeah. So this topic for this week is going to be about cheating. And is it ever okay to cheat?

Nicole [00:01:39]: Okay.

John [00:01:40]: And like, what is cheating? And like, technically, I mean, like, yeah, okay. You know, people have different views of that.

Nicole [00:01:46]: Right.

John [00:01:48]: So I don't know if you want to go into your feelings or you want me to kind of give a little blurb about how I feel and then.

Nicole [00:01:53]: Yeah, maybe you can start with this one. Let's get to your perspective.

John [00:01:57]: So I mean, as someone who has been cheated on and even before that, like, obviously physical cheating, most people would say is not okay. It's a deal breaker. I mean, some people, you know, work through those things and that's, you know, their prerogative, but cheating is definitely an absolutely not. And even in the situation where I got cheated on, like, I just saw them, like, laying on the couch together and, like, it looked pretty suspicious. So that was good enough for me. And I was like, done so.

Nicole [00:02:30]: Right.

John [00:02:32]: And having said that, like, even non physical versions of cheating, I would say are still technically cheating. Like, you know, texting some other woman, like, even if the guy hasn't met up with another woman, like, flirting with her or like, you know, in her DMs, like, whatever. Like, I would probably take it to more of the extreme.

Nicole [00:02:53]: Right.

John [00:02:53]: Just because how I feel about it is that, like, those things tell me that this person is not fully invested in me. And I only want to be with someone who's fully invested in me. So it's not even necessarily like, oh, like, I'm just being super strict to try to, like, prevent somebody from doing something. The thing is that, like, I wouldn't want to be with that person if he's even messaging other women or, like, you know, showing his interest in someone else, which might be unrealistic because a lot of people will say, like, well, men are visual creatures and men, you know, like, are very, like, physical beings. And like, yes, I understand the truth in that, but I also don't see it as an excuse, like, have some self control.

Nicole [00:03:41]: Right, I agree.

John [00:03:43]: And so. And the bottom line is I'd rather be on my own than with someone that's not invested in me. Like, if I'm committing to you to be in a relationship, like, I expect the same back, which, I mean, expectations, you know, we talked about that. But what I'm saying is my standard is the standard.

Nicole [00:04:01]: Exactly.

John [00:04:01]: You are invested in me. You're committing to me. We're exclusively together. If you're, like, flirting with someone else, no matter what that looks like, that. That shows me you're not invested in me.

Nicole [00:04:14]: Yeah, I would say it even. All that's missing is the opportunity. Right?

John [00:04:20]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:21]: So if someone's texting someone else, flirting with someone else, that, that kind of thing, they are cheating. Because the only thing that's missing is the opportunity.

John [00:04:30]: Right.

Nicole [00:04:30]: They're proving that.

John [00:04:31]: And if you're doing it and you wouldn't actually do it, then why are you doing it?

Nicole [00:04:36]: Right, exactly. Yeah.

John [00:04:37]: So it's like, still. Still unacceptable behavior. But yeah, I think that's like, my side. I mean, I'm sure as we, like, go into it, we'll talk more about, like, men cheating versus women cheating. But I want to give you an opportunity to talk about your views on it as, like, a whole type of thing.

Nicole [00:04:56]: Yeah. So mine is actually pretty complicated. We're gonna get. I guess we'll get into it, but so my experience with it is actually being on the other side of being the cheater. And so I'll say that what I've learned from that experience is that I agree with you 100%. It's never okay under any circumstance. It's better to leave the relationship. It's better to. Even if there's a lot of extenuating circumstances that you would think that it would be better to. What someone doesn't know doesn't hurt them. Even though that sounds pretty bad. At the time, it can be rationalized. And there are a lot of situations where that rationalization does make a lot of sense. However, it still ends up turning out to be a bad, bad idea.

John [00:05:46]: I mean, I would disagree with that because, I mean, personally, it's kind of hard because I know everybody's different. And I'm sure some people do agree with what you have to say, but I value honesty, so. So I don't really ever see a time where it's like, what they don't know won't hurt them.

Nicole [00:06:02]: Well, no, I agree with you.

John [00:06:03]: I understand that. In a literal sense, yes, if you don't tell somebody something hurtful, they won't be hurt. But at the end of the day, I do feel like people are entitled to know things. And sometimes people use that saying to keep something from somebody because they don't want to hurt them, but they're actually doing something that hurts them way more and causes them way more trauma in the long run.

Nicole [00:06:29]: I agree. No, I agree 100%. I'm not saying that it is the case that what someone doesn't know doesn't hurt them. I'm saying that it can be justified or rationalized in that way. Right. That's the rationale for someone.

John [00:06:41]: Well, I'm sure that's what goes through someone's mind when they're doing stuff like that.

Nicole [00:06:45]: But yeah, my story is actually so trying to think about the level of details to give, but I mean, eventually I'll give more and more details as, as we talk about the podcast as it's relevant. Right. I think that's, that's the best way to talk about it. Or maybe we have an episode talking about it. But. But yeah, so I was married before Nicole, and in that relationship, it was a 20 year relationship, so it was a very long time. And towards the end of that, I was ready to be done the way that things had played out. Not to say that I was faultless, like initially, but there was a lot of, let's just say that my needs weren't being fulfilled in that relationship. I didn't feel like I was being respected as a man. I was not happy with a lot of things that were happening in that relationship. And instead of leaving because I had a large financial interest, because I have a daughter, I decided, well, you know, if I'm not happy and nothing is going my way, I only have one life to live. I'm just gonna go and do what I want to do. Right. I've tried everything and I guess, you know, it's really hard to condense this into because you know the story, of course, you know completely, Nicole. So it's. It's hard to condense it into something that doesn't just seem horribly bad, because, I mean, it is still horribly bad. But. But, you know, I. I don't want to call out other people in things like that, but let's just say that I felt like it was an emotionally abusive relationship for me. That's was what my feeling was about relationship. That I had worked on it significantly, spent a lot of time trying to make things work. And I finally hit a point where I was just at the end of my rope and I was just ready to give up. And instead of actually going through and getting a separation or a divorce, which is what I should have done. And the reason I can give you the rationale for it, which made sense to me at the time, was, hey, do you really need to destroy everybody's lives? Do you need to destroy your financial future? Do you need to have your daughter end up having a split home? Those were the rationale.

John [00:09:08]: Pick your brain for a second because since you have cheated, I actually can talk to you as, you know, to get more information.

Nicole [00:09:15]: Sure, yeah.

John [00:09:16]: So you say that, but was there ever a time in your mind where you were like, if they find out, it's going to be even worse than, like, doing it before I've done something that is, like, morally wrong.

Nicole [00:09:31]: I was sort of at the point where I was so fed up that it's almost like a serial killer that leaves clues in order to get caught. I started doing the most extreme things.

John [00:09:46]: But I understand that because I know your story, right? And so I understand that. But did you ever stop and think and be like, blowing this up this way and leaving clues is actually way worse than splitting up my family, like, by. Or like, you know, like by sitting down and having to have those hard conversations. And I'm only asking you this because I feel like personally, a lot of men who cheat, right, they have the same reasoning. They're like, I don't want to hurt somebody by having a conversation to hurt them, but they don't see the hurt that is actually really bad. Like, really, really bad over here.

Nicole [00:10:31]: Yeah. So, I mean, a couple things were going on. So one is, like I said, the serial killer thing. I'm talking about leaving clues. I'm talking about because in some way I wanted things to blow up.

John [00:10:41]: Well, you wanted her to be the one to leave so that you didn't have to have the hard conversation. Like you were probably doing like, you're probably right, but you're probably leaving clues so that she would catch on and she'd be like, I'm not taking this. And she would have to be the one that, to end the relationship. And so that takes off the pressure of having to have that hard conversation because you didn't really want to be there. And so the easiest way, right. Is to have her leave you.

Nicole [00:11:10]: I think, I think there maybe been some, some part of that, but more so it was just like a self destructive type of, you know, when you're so miserable and fed up and you're just like, you just like, I want something. And it was almost because the other thing that was going on was that I, I sort of became very emotionally numb. Right, right. And part of what I was doing was bringing like some sense of emotion to my life. Right. When I would go out and pick up girls, do these crazy things, you know, it was like I would like fall in love for a night. And it was like, you know, okay, now I can feel things again. Right. It's like, it's the adrenaline is getting my heart pumping. And so I was sort of at this point where it was like, maybe if my whole life blows up, that will feel like something, you know what I mean? And it was it. But it's not something that you rationally think about. Like, what are the true implications of what this will do and the harm that will cause not just you, but every person even remotely connected, that that's.

John [00:12:12]: A male thing because women are more emotional. And like, so we're thinking that if. I'm not saying that women don't cheat, don't get me wrong, but I'm saying that like, women would be like, maybe think about it more because they typically do think more about other people's emotions because we're so emotional. And so they might realize, oh, okay, well if I do this, like, if I cheat, it's going to have even more implications than if I have to sit down and be like, hey, I don't really want to do this anymore, like have that sort of conversation.

Nicole [00:12:46]: Well, what usually happens in my experience, without going too far from my, my story is that women, men are more likely to physically cheat and do that. Women are more likely to emotionally cheat a little bit and then have the conversation and then go and do the physical cheating. Because a woman, usually, if she's with a man, she will find another guy and start an emotional connection with him. And once she feels like that emotional connection is established enough, then she'll leave the guy that she's with.

John [00:13:20]: Guys can do that too.

Nicole [00:13:21]: That's already cheating. I mean, yes, guys can do that.

John [00:13:26]: Cheat physically, and then they actually catch feelings from the person. So it's still very similar.

Nicole [00:13:31]: It is. It's just reverse order.

John [00:13:32]: It really is having your cake and eating it too. Right. Because you're not leaving the person you should be leaving.

Nicole [00:13:37]: Right.

John [00:13:38]: But you're going out and searching for whatever you're missing in that actual relationship.

Nicole [00:13:41]: Exactly.

John [00:13:42]: So that's what it is. And I understand what you're saying about being numb, because I experienced that after I had been cheated on.

Nicole [00:13:50]: Right.

John [00:13:51]: And so, like, I, like, you go through the same things, right? Like, you experience some trauma in that relationship which caused you to reach this breaking point where you're, like, just numbing it out. And you really didn't think about the future, you know, like, ahead. You were just thinking about, this is my life, I wanna live it. Let me go get what I need right now. And then just did the things rather than, like, looked ahead, you know? But when you're numb, that is what you do. Like, you don't really think about.

Nicole [00:14:23]: You don't think about the actions.

John [00:14:24]: You're very impulsive. You don't really have any sort of emotion, like good or bad towards the things that you're doing. And like you said, you're. You're numb. So you have to go to extremes a lot of the time to even feel anything.

Nicole [00:14:38]: Right.

John [00:14:38]: And then you constantly have to keep doing that because you don't feel anything.

Nicole [00:14:42]: Right.

John [00:14:43]: Normally you have to do these outlandish things to actually have feeling.

Nicole [00:14:48]: Right.

John [00:14:49]: So I get that perspective.

Nicole [00:14:51]: Right. But what I did was wrong and messed up. It was not. It was not a good. It's nothing I'm condoning, like, I'm giving the rationalizations for what I was thinking at the time. But it's not a rationalization. It's a backwards. It's not a rationalization for today, for now. Right. My views are obviously different on that. Now that I would say that it was not a good idea then. It's never a good idea. It results in. But these are the things that someone might be thinking. And even though those things might seem.

John [00:15:23]: To make sense, it's very important to teach men, and obviously women too. I'm not saying that women don't, but, like, as a woman, I do feel like we feel that men typically cheat more because men are physical and they're willing to, like, throw it all away for a night with this one Girl, you know, like, and then they'll be like, it didn't mean anything. Like, like you said, most of the time women, when they cheat, I'm not saying it makes it right or better, right. But they're like now fully invested in this other person most of the time. They're really not gonna go for a one night stand normally to throw away their relationship. Because women do typically want a relationship with a man, whereas men typically want something for the night or just physical.

Nicole [00:16:07]: Well, they did some studies too, and they, you know, there's a famous set of studies where they tested the responses. Right. And what they found was that women typically were more upset because they surveyed to say, okay, under this circumstance, you know, and women were more upset if a man cheated emotionally then physically. So if a man had meaningless sex with some woman, yeah, of course they were upset, but they were way more upset if he had feelings for this woman. So if, you know, in fact, a man, that would. A very common response that men give when they cheat and they get caught is like, oh, she doesn't mean anything. She doesn't mean anything to me right now. When they. And then the. On the opposite side, men were much more angry when a woman had physical physically cheated than if she had an emotional connection with another guy. Right. So that. There is a bit of an element to that, which just goes to what we are saying is that that's why.

John [00:17:07]: You see that kind of behavior normalized. Right. Like, I think women have been sort of brainwashed in a way. How. This is how I feel.

Nicole [00:17:17]: Okay, sure. So.

John [00:17:18]: So I feel like kind of going back to my description of cheating and what I think's acceptable. I think women have been told so much that men are physical. Like, he's gonna look, boys will be boys. And so they feel like they have to tolerate that because every man will be that way. And that's what they're told.

Nicole [00:17:38]: That's what they're told.

John [00:17:39]: Exactly. So, you know, that's why. Oh, well, if he had sex, like, you know, he just needed a hole for the night. Like, that sounds so horrible. But like, you know, like, that's why he can be like, it was just sex, it didn't mean anything. And that's why women believe it, I think sometimes is because they're taught, like, well, guys are gonna look and they're gonna, you know, they're visual creatures. They're gonna be like staring at other women all the time. Like, that's just what's gonna happen. And so women feel like, okay, well, I can't have unrealistic expectations, but I think they should go back to being like, no, this is not okay. Like, he's obviously not invested fully, right? And if you're in a committed relationship and someone's not fully invested, right, they're like, one foot in, one foot out. They're literally like standing on the doorway of a relationship and being single and like you said, just waiting for the people he's flirting with to give him the go ahead. And then he'll go, right? And then hope. He'll hope that you will take him back because it was just sex. But, you know, it's complicated, too, because I feel like people are also like, once a cheater, always a cheater. And, like, I even felt like that. And like, you know, I found out you cheated. It was like the biggest thing to me because I was like, I had been cheated on, and I was like, I'm never doing this again. Like, you know, and I did believe, you know, once a cheater, always a cheater. I'm like, okay, well, you know, they do maybe get addicted to this behavior.

Nicole [00:19:12]: Well, and I think. I think that's generally true. I think once a cheater, always a cheater is generally true. I think that is a rule that you should normally have because I think that once you've crossed a line, it's easier to cross that line again. Now, obviously, I believe that I'm an exception in that case, but I do think that it is smart to. To think in terms of those. Those. Those things, because I think that does make sense. Now, again, like I said, I can say that my circumstance was a very extenuating, extenuating circumstance in my case, because of the history and all the things that had gone on, which we can't discuss. All. We don't have time in this full podcast, but yet to say that I. That was never something. I never wanted to be that guy. I always wanted what we have, right? And I had sought that out for so many years in my relationship and worked through so much stuff and just kept on giving chances and chances and chances. And by the time that I gotten so worn out, I just didn't feel like anything meant anything in life. I was just like, I'm, you know, whatever. I'm getting older. I'm just gonna just live my life and accept whatever content would come and just do whatever the hell that I want to do. Like, people would say that it was a midlife crisis. And I mean, maybe, maybe. I mean, it fits all the things for a midlife crisis. You Know.

John [00:20:34]: Well, I think it's hard to say that without, like, everybody knowing the full extent, because you did go through a lot of things. And I think you are right. I think you have to look at a person's character and, like, is this fitting of their character? Because I think that's what really saved you, honestly, when I was deciding whether I could do this or not is because I was like, you know, he really doesn't seem like that type of person to do that. And even you said you were looking for love for a night, right? Like, you were still looking for love. Like, you weren't really looking for, you know, just a bunch of hookups. And, you know, I feel like it's the people that almost like, border on the, like, sex addiction thing, where it's like, they would probably hook up with anybody that gave them the opportunity.

Nicole [00:21:24]: Yeah, yeah.

John [00:21:25]: Because it's like they're addicted to the thing rather than like, you were looking for love. You weren't just like, trying to fulfill this addiction that you had.

Nicole [00:21:34]: And there was a lot of things that were going on just psychologically for me. I had gotten married at 21. Again, not an excuse, but I had not at the time. I was not very masculine. I was not very confident in myself, especially in my sexual self and with women. And I had. That was always a deep insecurity. That's also what pulled me in that direction as well, is because I.

John [00:22:03]: You were trying to prove to yourself.

Nicole [00:22:04]: I was trying to prove to myself. Yeah, exactly. Trying to prove to my. Not just to myself, but to anyone that I was desirable. Right. Or worthy. Good enough or worthy of being loved. That's what a lot of people are trying. And because of the relationship that I was in where I didn't feel like that it was like a desperate need for me. And then. And that's the other thing about it, is that when I met you, I. It was. I had felt like I have already. Now there's nothing left to prove. In fact, when I met you, I was like, oh, shoot, this is. I could have had a girl like this. Right. This is. This is what I should have had. I didn't think that was. Was possible, but yeah, so it was. You know, there was a lot of things that was going on. Again, not justifying any of the things. It was still horribly bad what I did. Right. I mean, I met. Made. Made bad choices, obviously, but because what. What ended up happening was that it ended up being. Just creating a lot more pain for everybody.

John [00:23:04]: Right.

Nicole [00:23:04]: Involved.

John [00:23:04]: Well, that's what I'M saying, right?

Nicole [00:23:05]: Even now, like, if you think about it now, right? It's like, even this podcast, right? In the sense that I. I could sit here and we could have. We could avoid this topic completely and not ever talk about cheating on the podcast. Or I could and just, like, just say, oh, yeah, yeah, no, you should never cheat and not talk about my. Like, I have to now, every time, you know, I have to give a full disclosure and say, this is. This is what I did. Right.

John [00:23:30]: But I think it's good because you made the mistake and you realize how bad it is. And I think men need men like you to own up to the things that they did that was wrong and show them why doing it this way is wrong. Because they are so afraid to sit a woman down and be like, I don't think this is working out anymore. I want to see other people because they're afraid of how hurt she's going to be. And she is going to be hurt, but she is going to be less hurt from that conversation than you just go doing what you want behind her back, for sure. Plus, two guys aren't always the most responsible sexually. So she could also be exposed to things that she didn't even know. Right.

Nicole [00:24:19]: These are true.

John [00:24:20]: And so it's like, now you're really just like. It's almost like saying, fuck you by doing that rather than, like, sitting down and being like, hey, I enjoyed the time that we had, but I think our time has run its course or something. Whatever. You can put it straight. And I get that when you're married, there's a lot more on the line.

Nicole [00:24:41]: Yeah.

John [00:24:42]: But it's also a lot more to lose. And I'm sure that you realize that, like, you're going to lose it either way. Do you want to lose it with dignity or do you want to lose it right by being the person that was wrong and doing something that was morally wrong?

Nicole [00:24:57]: And there was a part of me that was like, fuck you. Like, there was. That part of. It was like, okay, you asked for this. You know what I'm saying? Obviously, that's not, you know, toxic. You know what I mean? That's not like, no one deserves to be.

John [00:25:13]: You have that feeling. But another reason to just have the conversation, like, you know, like, I get it because I know your full story. So it's like. But you have to, like, if you're there and you really do want to be like, fuck you. Which is, like, understandable. Some people get to a point where they're like, fudge, you Know like they want to go balls to the wall, but at the end of the day, that's going to hurt you.

Nicole [00:25:38]: Yeah.

John [00:25:39]: Even though you don't realize there was a lot.

Nicole [00:25:41]: Yeah.

John [00:25:42]: I mean, but I'm just saying other guys like you, don't you think that you could just be like, oh, I'm going to do this, so it'll be like a fudge you and then whatever.

Nicole [00:25:49]: Right.

John [00:25:49]: But that hurts you.

Nicole [00:25:51]: It does.

John [00:25:52]: Maybe not in that moment because you're doing what you want to do.

Nicole [00:25:55]: Right.

John [00:25:55]: But further on down the line for sure.

Nicole [00:25:57]: Yeah, it does, it does. It's. I mean, the other day I was thinking about it. I was like, I felt like I was the unwitting hand of karma delivery. I was like, it's like the karma. I was the delivery of the karma mechanism, but unwittingly, like, I, I, like I, I was so unaware of what I was doing that it, I became that vehicle that delivered that karma. And I, I being that vehicle is not a good thing. You don't want to deliver karma to someone. You don't want to be the thing that causes you.

John [00:26:24]: Normally, I think you don't deliver karma where you're going to get karma for doing the karma delivering.

Nicole [00:26:30]: Well, that's what I'm saying is that's. That a lot of times that is the case is that you don't want to be that because the, the after math of that. Because afterwards then you do have. I did had to have to contend with a lot of guilt and shame around because when I realized, like, man, what I was pretty up, just like.

John [00:26:51]: You were on a numb autopilot too. So you didn't care then. But then the second your icy heart started to melt, then you felt all the things that you weren't feeling right and then you were in numb mode.

Nicole [00:27:02]: Exactly.

John [00:27:03]: And then that really drove you crazy.

Nicole [00:27:04]: Yeah. Yeah.

John [00:27:05]: So.

Nicole [00:27:06]: Yeah, so it is. You know, you can be. Get to a point where you're just so. Just tired that you just don't care. And that's where. Where, where I got to. But again, like I said, there's no justification for any of these things. I, you know, I, I would say now that it is correct to say that cheating under any circumstances is wrong, that you shouldn't. And again, it's not even just that it's wrong for the other person. It's wrong for you morally because you're doing something that is destructive to you because it required a lot of recovery for me to just deal with what I did.

John [00:27:42]: Well, you're not being honest now you have to add on all these other things, you're lying to this person. There's no way you can cheat and stay in a relationship and then go out and be intimate with other people or whatever you're doing, cheating wise, and then come back and not have to lie. Of course there's no way. And like we talked about in other podcasts, like, the core thing to any relationship is honesty, right? You cannot be truly intimate with somebody if you're not honest with them. And that's also why sitting down and having an honest conversation is the only way that you won't totally mess up yourself and the other person. Like, there will be feelings. That's normal and that's fine. Like, we're adults. We have to handle our feelings. And even if somebody, like, even if you had a conversation with her and she blew up your phone and is trying to get you back and all these things, right? Like, you can be respectful and keep your space, right? But, like, don't allow somebody else, no matter how bad it is. And I know that's really hard to bring you down to a level that's not. You, like, speak your truth, be honest. I know it's not easy to have hard conversations with people, but that is what's necessary. And for women, too, I don't want to, like, you know, totally go all in on men because I do realize that women cheat too. But I'm just saying mostly from a man perspective of cheating is because, like, they are more physical people. And so it does tend to be physical. But you're right, like, women do typically cheat emotionally. And it also, I feel like, tends to be women who have maybe been in relationships back to back to back, and they don't know how to be alone, so they're afraid to be alone. And so they're trying to line up, you know, the next one so that she always has somebody there to, like, be codependent on. Like, I understand that that is a possibility too. I understand that, like, sometimes maybe a woman will even go do a one night stand and throw away her relationship. But it's like regardless of whether you're a man or a woman, have the hard conversation. I understand it's not easy, but it will benefit everybody in the long run. And cheating harms everybody in the long run.

Nicole [00:30:03]: Yeah, I agree with you. No, it's true. It is hard to have the hard conversation.

John [00:30:07]: It is.

Nicole [00:30:07]: Again, some of the things, it's funny. It's like all of the, almost all of the things that I have learned that I tell people about are things that I have learned the hard way. So I'm sort of that guy, right? Even like. Well, yeah, I mean, that's what it seems like. Whoa. But, yeah, but like even we did the episode on the six things, you know, for relationship. The. What do we call those? Like the. Or the six, like boundaries. Yeah, basically. Why do you think I know what that list should be? Right? Because if that list was in the situation I was in, I would have had to make a different decision, right? I would have had to either have said. I would have basically had to either not done it at all or said I'm leaving.

John [00:30:52]: Right?

Nicole [00:30:53]: Because there would be no way. There's no wiggle room there. And that's. And that's why. And again, it doesn't mean that you have to have those things in order. You know, you should trust someone aside from that, but it's also for your own protection as well. Right? Because if I had those things implemented in that relationship, it would have prevented me from choosing the wrong path. I would have just had to leave, which would have been a smarter thing to do. So. Yeah, so. But it's, you know, it is a hard thing to contend with. And it's hard for you too, because it's like, you know, it's like, I'm sure people are like, well, how can you, I mean, how can you know that he's not a cheater now? You know, because that's, you know, it is a valid question.

John [00:31:34]: So as someone who, like I said, been cheated on and it was very traumatic because it was with my best friend of like 14 years in my apartment that I lived with, with him. So, like, it was a very big deal, right? You know, like, I was like, I'm never gonna date a cheater, like yada yada. And so I think it speaks volumes about you, like, not to be like, da, da, da, that I do want to be with you, but it's because I know who you are deep down. And like I have told you multiple times that what you did is wrong. You know that, right? But I don't think that is who you are to your core. And you know, if you did end up doing that to me, I have a standard, like I just talked about that that's unacceptable. And I think, like, I want to empathize with people though, who are like women who are in a marriage or a long term thing and they're husband has cheated and they've tried to work it out because I get that, like, not Every situation is gonna be the same. Like, if they can do that, like, more power to them. Like, they are. They're strong in what they're doing. If it's for love, like, if it's just for comfort, then it's. You should really, like, think about it. But if it's because you really love this person, you really think that they made a mistake that they would not do again.

Nicole [00:32:56]: Right.

John [00:32:57]: I can even understand that now. Would I do the same thing as them? Probably not, to be honest. Cause again, I'm a very. Like, you're all in or you're all out. Because I'm not the type of person that wants somebody that is, like, straddling the line. Even if it's like, 98% in the relationship. And 2% might go over here, because 2% can turn into 100% real quick.

Nicole [00:33:22]: Right.

John [00:33:23]: So, you know, I just want to say, though, that, like, I mean, even our situation, people would probably be like, if they've gone through some of the things that we went through. Yeah, no, it seems be like, no, I'm not doing it. But it's like, so it is different. Details do matter.

Nicole [00:33:38]: Which, again, also created the situation that we had to go through because of what I had left as un. Loose ends and unprocessed things, which made it so that. Because if I had gotten a divorce, been, you know, and then I meet you, you know, years later, after I've dealt with all the stuff from the cheating and the trauma and all the stuff, it would have been pretty smooth sailing. Right. You know, it was like I was going through my own guilt, my own shame, all of the kind of stuff that was, you know, that was happening. You know, that's why it's so. But, you know. But at the same time, it was a growing process as well. Like, you know, we're here for the benefit of other people, to learn from our mistakes. Just the things we've learned through that process.

John [00:34:30]: That's important. I mean, people are gonna make their own mistakes. But at least if you have some knowledge, it makes it. It can lessen the blow if that makes sense or cause you to make different choices. If you start to feel like, oh, well, I think Brad over there is looking good, maybe you should reflect and be like, why am I looking at other people if I'm in this relationship? You know, like, is this relationship I'm in really what I want? Or do I want Brad? And if I really want Brad, then I need to have a conversation with this person.

Nicole [00:35:03]: Well, this actually brings up a Good topic. Which maybe we can delve into the things that people think aren't cheating, which are cheating or on the slippery slope to cheating. Right. So one of them is like, celebrity crush type of situations. Right? We've talked about this before.

John [00:35:18]: You probably should do that one last. Because, like, most people. People. Well, this is a slippery slope with what you're saying. But, I mean.

Nicole [00:35:25]: But this is the slippery slope because. Because it's the same thing like you were saying about women being brainwashed to have the center. Oh, it's just a guy. He'll just. He's going to look. He's just going to do those things. But it's also given a pass for women and men about celebrity crush. You see someone on tv, they're like, oh, look at, you know, what's his name? I don't. I don't know.

John [00:35:48]: I mean, I would say that that's even maybe a counter response that women have to kind of equalize it, to be honest. Like, I'm not saying 100%, but if women are like, well, he's gonna. I'm being conditioned to say, he's gonna look. He's a visual creature. Like, they just want physical stuff, then she probably is like, well, then I think Harry Styles is super hot. So, like, you know, if he can do it, then I can do it.

Nicole [00:36:16]: Right.

John [00:36:16]: That's where I feel like a lot of the time that this even comes from is because it's like now it's like a battle of, well, if you're gonna look at other people, I'm gonna look at other people. And then that just further.

Nicole [00:36:28]: Yeah, it's not a good.

John [00:36:28]: Does the wedge. I'm not saying that that's always the case. It's always the reason. But I'm just saying, like, most women are conditioned to believe this thing. And so at the same time, they might be like, well, if he's gonna look and I have to just deal with it, then I'm gonna have a crush, and he's just gonna have to deal with it.

Nicole [00:36:46]: Right. And that's. Yeah. And that's obviously not a healthy way to handle a situation, because it's not good for either person to. It just. It's an insult and disrespectful to your partner to say that someone else is attractive. Of the opposite.

John [00:37:01]: I had a celebrity crush before you came along. Like, I did.

Nicole [00:37:04]: Right.

John [00:37:04]: Like, my job literally had like, a whole birthday party at one point that was designed around this celebrity crush.

Nicole [00:37:10]: Right.

John [00:37:10]: And honestly, it's going to sound like I'M lying. But when you came along, like, you fulfilled everything that I've ever even imagined. And I don't even remotely think about that person that I had a huge celebrity crush on. Like, I'm not even kidding. Like, it's, like, gone. Because it's like, there is no, like, looking up to somebody else. Like, I have so much admiration for you and respect and love that. Like, it just doesn't even cross my mind. So I feel like if you're feeling those things, it can be a time to reflect on who you're with. I mean, obviously I was single for a lot of it.

Nicole [00:37:52]: Yeah, for sure.

John [00:37:53]: It was just a little, like, oh, he's cute. But if you're in a relationship and you're still obsessing over a celebrity or somebody that you think is so hot that you don't even know or a.

Nicole [00:38:05]: Co worker or whatever, you shouldn't be.

John [00:38:07]: With someone you know either. But I'm just saying, someone that you're never gonna talk to, then, like, you're. You are creating, like, a sort of divide there. Whether it's like you think it's innocent or not, it's like you are still valuing this person over your partner in a way. And you might not see it as destructive. You might see it as like, oh, well, this is just a fun little thing. But at the same time, I'm sure that women, if their guy was like, oh, I love, like, Margot Robbie, they would be like, what? Especially if they're, like, brunette, like, the furthest thing away from a blonde girl or something, you know, they'd be like, oh, well, I don't even look like his celebrity crush. So what does that mean?

Nicole [00:38:51]: And that frequently happens as well. It does happen. Guys have celebrity crush too. Or guys vocalize it. But vocalizing and even just doing it because you're supposed to give yourself 100% to your partner, right? If you're lusting after someone else and it's not, you know, well.

John [00:39:05]: And people also have the argument of, like, well, humans aren't supposed to be attracted to only one person. And I'm just like, that just sounds again, like the. Whoever came up with the guys are gonna look. So just get over it. Like, those things sound the same to me, right?

Nicole [00:39:18]: And it may be true that it's like that there is some amount of difficulty that someone would experience, but it's a matter of training your mind and having the discipline and making the choice that you're making. You know what I mean?

John [00:39:33]: Like, fully invested, right? Then it' it's almost like you have blinders on.

Nicole [00:39:37]: It is, it is, but because you.

John [00:39:39]: Can like see an attractive person, guy or girl walking down the street. But if you're invested in your relationship, it's not like distracting you, right?

Nicole [00:39:47]: You can just notice that.

John [00:39:48]: You just acknowledge.

Nicole [00:39:49]: You just notice that.

John [00:39:50]: Like you would acknowledge, like a child running down the street. But you're not gonna be like, I agree with you, like, still thinking about that. Does that make sense?

Nicole [00:39:57]: So that brings us to porn and romance novels. Oh, God.

John [00:40:01]: Shouldn't that be like a separate thing? Cause I feel like that's like, could.

Nicole [00:40:05]: Go, is that cheating? Is pornography cheating porn?

John [00:40:10]: Yes.

Nicole [00:40:11]: Okay.

John [00:40:12]: Like, you are literally seeing people naked and like, involved in intimate acts. I feel like that's. That would be cheating. Well, like, not like full blown cheating.

Nicole [00:40:23]: But again, it's the slippery soap. Invested, full blown, It's a slippery soap. It's not a, not a thing that.

John [00:40:29]: You put that effort into being with your partner. Don't you think your sex life would improve?

Nicole [00:40:37]: Right? Of course.

John [00:40:38]: So, like, that's okay.

Nicole [00:40:39]: So I think there's a lot of guys that are like 95% of guys are addicted to porn. So we're going to get a lot of angry people right now. But, but I would say that if you're a guy, if you're having a porn problem and you're in a relationship with a woman and you're not trying to address it, if you're just like, oh, it's okay, right? If you're not working on it because an addiction is a hard thing to break. It is. It is true. Then that's the problem. Now you're more in the cheating zone. Right. Whereas because it's the same thing.

John [00:41:09]: I have a question.

Nicole [00:41:10]: Okay. Yeah.

John [00:41:11]: From like, I want to know a guy's perspective, if a woman was watching porn, would a man care?

Nicole [00:41:19]: It's interesting. So it's the same thing as when guys ask me, they're like, oh, yeah, it'd be cool if my girl was into girls. Right. It's like if she had a lesbian encounter. And I'm like, yeah, that seems really cool. Except that you would have to then really question the intimacy level of your relationship. Yeah. You know, it's like, seems like, yeah, okay. So it's almost in the same way, like a guy might be like, oh, yeah, she's watching porn. That's great. You know, just because of the, of the sexual type of thing. That, that. So I think that it comes down to that same exact psychological study. Right. Like a guy would be less offended by a woman watching porn. I guess it might depend on what kind that she was watching or what. Or if she was incorporating it into their relationship. Right. I think that, like, it's still sex.

John [00:42:11]: But it's not her having sex with someone else. So wouldn't a man be a little insecure about that? Like, I'm not good enough for her. She's watching, like, this porn. Like, are you specifically saying, like, just lesbian porn? Because, like, what if she was watching heterosexual porn and, like, she doesn't really seem interested in having sex with you.

Nicole [00:42:31]: But she watches her porn and that's where. I think that's where then it starts to become. But that's for a guy. It's like, if she wasn't interested in having sex with you and she was watching porn, then you would start to be like, okay, I think most guys wouldn't. Wouldn't care as much if she's watching porn and then having sex with. But. But the real equivalent, though, for. Because men are visual pornography is a visual medium, what women do is they read smut novels. Okay? Harlequin romance novels, you know, 50 shades of gray type of stuff. Right. And that is the equivalent of women watching porn, because that is the same. It's because a woman is more sexually turned on. Her sexual apparatus works in the mind more so than the visual. Right. Whereas a man's is more wired through the visual. And so again, if a woman reads some novels, do I think that that is. Is. Is. Is. Is a bad thing? No. But if she's obsessed with reading romance novels and obsessed with the idea, yeah, the dirty ones and the love idea of, like, trying to get the romance that she's missing from the relationship from the novel, then it becomes a substitute. Then it starts to become along the lines of cheating. It really does start to become that. Because where is your investment? Because really, the heart of the both.

John [00:43:55]: Be porn for men because they're visual books for women. Because it's like she's living in this fantasy land, which I think that women want men to act the way they do in romance novels, and a lot of men don't. And I'm not, like, justifying this. Like, I'm not justifying, like, being obsessed with smut novels because you're not getting it in real life. Because again, I think you should leave your partner and go find somebody that will give you the romance and the intimacy that you're reading in these books, because then you don't care. Like, I will occasionally read a book that's popular and it might have. Right, it might have instances like that. But I'm not search. I'm not, like, searching for that.

Nicole [00:44:37]: It's the equivalent of, look, you watch a rated R movie, we watch a movie together. There's some nudity, there's a sex scene. There's nudity, there's a sex scene. It's like that. That's not, like the same thing as actively seeking it out, right? So if you read a romance novel or whatever, you're reading the story. But if you're actively seeking out. I'm missing romance in my life. I'm reading romance novels. I'm reading smut novels because I like. I'm using this as a substitute for my actual sex life. Then it starts to become. Because at the heart of the idea of cheating is. Is this idea that you are not giving your 100% self to the person that you're in a committed relationship with, whether that be your physical emote, your emotions, your physical body, your sexuality.

John [00:45:21]: Like, those things aren't being met. And instead of, like, having a conversation to try to fix those, you're turning to an easy fix. Like, an easy fix, like, which actually, like, gets you further away from the thing that you want. So let's say that, like a couple, the guy is not getting as much sex as he wants, so he starts watching porn, right? And, like, the woman's not getting romanced and, like, you know, made to feel like those romance novels make women feel, so she keeps reading the books. And so it's like, instead of, like, talking about it and trying to both, like, meet each other's needs, now you're just doing it on your own and you're getting further and further away. And if you do have a conversation and, like, it just doesn't align, then you need to leave. Like, you can have that. You can find it. I feel like people stay in situations a lot of the time when they shouldn't. And I understand because it is hard to date and it's hard to put yourself out there, but people will stay in a place that they don't belong so that they don't have to fight or figure out the discomfort of dating again.

Nicole [00:46:30]: Yeah, the changes.

John [00:46:31]: And so it's like you end up, I feel like, in a worse situation by being somewhere you know you don't belong, right? Then just having to bite the bullet, have a hard conversation, and go put yourself out there and potentially meet the person that gives you all the things that you want or because you think it's not out there or like people have told you, like, oh, you're like, you have too high standards, you're too picky, which I heard all the time. And I'm so glad I didn't listen to any of those people. So because now I have even better than I could have ever imagined. And like I said, people might not believe me, but I don't have any of these things that I used to have because you fulfill all the needs.

Nicole [00:47:14]: That I have and that's what you should look for. And sometimes it's also because I think sometimes people can get into this habit of just switching partners because they're like, oh, I need to find this person. And I think that's also destructive because sometimes the answer is too, that you can work it out and figure it out. So, for example, one of the reasons why porn and romance novels are bad things is because they meet a need that you have at a lower level, right? So when you get a need met at a lower level, you don't go and get it met at the higher level. So, for example, if you're really, really thirsty and there's just pond water around, you could drink pond water. It will quench your thirst. It's not a good idea. It's going to you sick. You know, it's not healthy for you to drink pond water, I'm pretty sure. You know, but maybe there's some, some good bacterias in there, but probably a lot of bad bacterias, but. But my point is, is that they will quench the thirst that will make it so that you don't go and seek the real water. And so if you're a guy, if you're looking at porn, you're not. If you're having sexual issues in your relationship, you should be addressing them with your girlfriend or wife instead and trying to get those needs met in that way. And if you can't and that's not acceptable to you, then sure, then maybe that relationship isn't for you. Then the same thing on the woman's side. If you're reading romance novels because you're not getting a romance, you should be. That's preventing you from actually feeling enough pain to do something to either leave or to address it. So you'll just stay in it. You'll stay in a situation that is not so good, like a drug abuser just getting high to just feel normal. Right. Instead of getting out of the situation. And that's, I think that's, that's the real problem with, with those things. I mean, I guess it's just kind of a separate. But it is. It's a slippery slope to cheating. Because what I feel like in a lot of those cases, especially like celebrity crush, romance novels, porn, is that the only thing that's missing is opportunity. And that's. That's the danger of it. It's like, if you had the opportunity with the celebrity crush, you know, would you. A lot of people would, right? They even joke and say, oh, you gotta pass for. For this one person. And that's. That's kind of fucked up, actually, right? It's like, you know, I agree. If a guy had an opportunity with the porn stars, he's, you know, would he take it? If he's addicted to it and he keeps on seeking it out, then. And he has no problem with that, then probably. If a woman was able to find the man in her romance novel, would she take that opportunity? You know, so that's where it becomes a very slippery slope, is because opportunity is the only thing that's missing. And that's, you know, that's. That's dangerous.

John [00:49:48]: I mean, the more we talk about all these things, for me, I feel like what I keep stressing is like, checking in with your relationship. Like, you know, and do it when it's starting. Because even checking in is like, what I said to you about, you know, when you told me about the cheating, and I found that out, like, I would have normally left, but I had known who you were to your core and your character, and I knew that that didn't really align with that. You did, like, the thing that you did, like cheating and things like that. And I also knew your backstory, which, again, is not an excuse, but I knew where you were coming from. And so, like, it's constantly checking in. Right? Like, so. And even if I had made that decision about you and then a few months later I found you, like, texting some other girl, then I would have left.

Nicole [00:50:45]: Oh, for sure.

John [00:50:46]: You know, because it's like, okay, well, I made a bad judgment and this happened, and I'm checking in and realizing I'm not doing that, so it's time for me to go. So I think the key to all of this stuff is, like, checking in where you're at and having the hard conversations to fix things, or, unfortunately, having a conversation to end things.

Nicole [00:51:10]: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, I agree with that 100%. So I guess we should probably wrap it up here. Yeah, I know. Real quick, though, before we wrap this up and go into the last segment, since we're running out of Time. And I'll say that at some point, I'll just give the full story of my whole situation because it really is hard to judge it from this one podcast. I hope it doesn't come across as too, you know, whatever. I mean, some people are just gonna hate me now, so that's fine. But I mean, I will dedicate a full podcast episode, if people are interested, into the exact full, full story. I think that's. That's worth doing. But the.

John [00:51:47]: I mean, I get that, but I also think that you don't have to, like, fully explain.

Nicole [00:51:51]: Yeah, I mean, I figure as want to as it comes up. I think that the pieces. That. That makes sense. But. But the. The last thing I wanted to make sure that we addressed with this was the. Because we addressed both the extreme end and the both extremes of the end. But what about in the middle, the gray area where it's like texting someone, liking someone's Instagram posts. Right, right. Messaging someone, responding to someone's messages. You know what I mean? Doing those things.

John [00:52:18]: Yeah. I mean, it's like, can you prevent person of the opposite sex from texting you? No, but like, we talked about on other episodes, like, being transparent, you know, hey, this happened. If you have to respond, like, thinking about it, you know, or like, you know, talking about it or figuring out if it's even worth responding to, and, you know, liking other women's pictures or men's pictures, like, no, obviously, like, that is. Again, this could be like, a whole thing. Because to me, that's like, showing interest. Like, and even it could be as a friend. It could, like, but the person could misinterpret. Right. Like, you could like another girl's picture as a friend and just be like, encouraging them. But she might be like, oh, he might be interested. And then she starts liking all your pictures, and then maybe she, like, slides in your DMs to kind of like, test the water.

Nicole [00:53:13]: Right.

John [00:53:13]: It's just like, with social media and all these ways to stay connected, it's just like more opportunities for people to try to come in. And, you know, unfortunately, there are men and women who see something good and want to try to wreck it, and that's their sort of, like, chaos fun that they want to have. Right?

Nicole [00:53:33]: Sure. Yeah.

John [00:53:34]: Like, you know, that definitely happens. I mean, you even told me that men or women are more likely to hit on men that have a wedding ring on. And I was just like, what? Like, that's such bad juju to me. Like, you know, like, stay away from something that is obviously off the market. Like, you're just gonna get yourself in trouble. You're gonna get them in trouble, you know, like, don't involve yourself in that drama and have the karma come back to you. But yeah, so it's just like I would stay away from any sort of thing like that, to be honest. And it's not like a control thing. It's that you should be 100% invested in what you have.

Nicole [00:54:15]: Right.

John [00:54:15]: Like, obviously, if you're single. Sure. Like, whatever picture. But I would even say don't like a married man's picture.

Nicole [00:54:20]: Right? Yeah, exactly.

John [00:54:21]: Like, you know, or like men too, you know, whatever. But it's like just like, don't even. You won't even want to do those things if you're fully invested in what you have. And if you're not fully invested in what you have and you feel yourself like, drawn to liking, like guy model pictures or sending a guy a DM or like whatever or like commenting a winky face on someone's picture and you're in a relationship, like, again, check back in. Because that doesn't align with being in a relationship.

Nicole [00:54:55]: Yeah. I would say that the general rule would be don't even create the appearance of infidelity. It doesn't matter if you what you intended. But the general rule is don't even create the appearance. If someone of the opposite texts you show your partner, you know, don't even make it. Even if you just say something innocent back, show what you said. Because now there's no appearance of wrongdoing. Like, just completely don't go out to a bar by yourself where you know what I mean you could be construed of doing just if your location's on, you're good to go. Like all these things. No appearance of any wrongdoing as long as if you think about it that way, then there's no question about it and then you don't have to worry. Partners don't have to worry.

John [00:55:39]: But again, we could go whatever you have to hide.

Nicole [00:55:43]: If you're having to hide something, whatever it is. In fact, that's the other thing. If you're having to hide it from your partner, in some ways that's cheating. It might not be honest.

John [00:55:52]: Honesty is the best policy. Withholding information for the end of time. Like, be honest, period.

Nicole [00:56:00]: All right, well, I think we, we covered that one pretty good.

John [00:56:06]: Sweating about that one.

Nicole [00:56:08]: But let's talk about the, the. Our relationship this week. What is it? So it's my. My turn to talk about something. So, so let's see. So. So what happened this week was I was taking my daughter to her orthodontist appointment, and. And I took her to get a burger and a milkshake, and I told Nicole about it. And then, you know, and then she got a little bit upset about it because we, you know, we don't give desserts all the time and stuff. And I was, yeah, we have rules.

John [00:56:39]: And I'm a very big rule follower, and there's a reason we have rules. So I felt like, in that moment, like, the rules only matter when you decide that they matter. And, like, it felt like we were kind of going back because we weren't following the rules. So it's not about, like, a milkshake. It's like, there is more detail to that. Cause you're gonna make me sound crazy.

Nicole [00:57:06]: Yeah, it's not that.

John [00:57:07]: The thing is, we have a rule where we do, like, one dessert a week, and we had Cheesecake Factory delivered to our house. So we had the dessert of all desserts. So it's like, you know. And then there was a time where Sophia also talked about. I said her name.

Nicole [00:57:26]: Oh, it's okay.

John [00:57:26]: Well, where she talked about, you know, being kind of confused. Cause sometimes you, you know, are a little bit more relaxed with the rules. Like, I'm not saying that that's the.

Nicole [00:57:35]: Case, but that's what she. That's her impression, which I'm sure she.

John [00:57:38]: Was trying to like, because all the.

Nicole [00:57:39]: Time when she's out with me, we're doing something special, which is why she gets that well.

John [00:57:43]: And so she was confused.

Nicole [00:57:44]: But I drove her to school this last week and made her tell her class why she was late. So I enforced the rule because she was late for school.

John [00:57:51]: So, no, I'm not saying that you don't. But I'm just saying that it was like, you know, that felt a perception. But I was trying to uphold these rules, and then it felt like it wasn't being. And that's not true because we had a conversation about it. But, like, in that moment, it just felt that way. And I'm a very rules person, and I, you know, want to help our daughter, like, learn things that are gonna be beneficial to her when she gets older and, like, instill things in her. And so, you know, it just. It was hard. And it's hard because I'm a step parent, right? It is like.

Nicole [00:58:25]: It is.

John [00:58:26]: You have a different place in things. Like, it's not different, but it is. Like, luckily, like, she treats me like a parent a lot of the time, but there is, you know, like, I'm not a authority that she has had her whole life.

Nicole [00:58:40]: Exactly.

John [00:58:41]: So there is this sort of, like, you know, difference there.

Nicole [00:58:45]: Right. So it was complicated, but the two mistakes that I made were. Was. Was one is that. Well, I got upset about it, and when I. When I came home, we got into a bit of. A. Bit of a tiff, which is not normal for us. You know, we kind of went back and forth on it and. But I made a couple of key mistakes. The big one was that just. And this pointed out a problem that we had with our. Our handling of discipline in the relationship is that me as the man, I should have been 100% responsible for the discipline and the rules in the relationship, because I should be the one that's setting those things, that's enforcing those things. Nicole should be just focused on being the loving and nurturing one. And so I was not fully taking that responsibility. So it created an issue.

John [00:59:33]: Well, it's hard in your defense, because I am around her mostly. And so, you know, I see a lot of the things that you don't necessarily see because I'm with her, but.

Nicole [00:59:43]: It stresses you out, whereas I have no problem with it. Right. So it's like that's. That's my domain, is I should have been handling that. So I should have made it very clear from the beginning. We should have had this discussion before then, that I'm the one that'll handle the rules. You don't even worry about it. You just. You just show her the love and nurturing side of it. I'll do the discipline and the rule side. And I think that is a really good way to operate, which is what we talked about after that discussion, when we calmed down a little bit. And that's what we really came to, was that makes the most sense, because then it's not going to. Nicole's not going to have to worry. I'm not going to feel like I'm being controlled from that. And we talked a little bit about setting expectations and letting go of expectations and some of that stuff. But the second thing that I had messed up there was also that I discovered, which is good. This is why we're doing this. This is what this podcast is about, as we help each other learn through these experiences, is that when I am hurt, because it did hurt me, because I felt like I was being controlled and that my judgment wasn't being lifted up, let's say. And so instead of expressing, hey, that hurt my feelings, which is so Hard for me to do. I said I overreacted and was upset about that, and I didn't say the thing. If I would have just come home and said, hey, when you texted me that I made a judgment call, there I was taking Sophie out after. And it just. It hurt my feelings that you. You know, I think that would have just made things a lot simpler. So. But. And I found that that's a pattern that. That I have had is that I won't say that something has hurt my feelings, so.

John [01:01:27]: Right. And I do have issues with control, and I do value rules, and, you know, I had to set rules for myself a lot as a kid. And so, you know, I do value the structure of rules, and I value, like, what they can bring you. And sometimes I value it a little too much. And I, you know, I'm very, like, strict on the rules and upholding them, and that's not always the best thing. And, you know, I have a lot of anxiety and, like, thoughts running a million miles a minute. And so a lot of times I do feel like my opinion or my thought, I'm offering. I thought a lot about it, so it's probably a really good idea. But I do offer that probably a little too much, for sure. And I know that that made you feel like I didn't trust you, and I'm working on that, obviously. And I didn't handle our conversation the way that I normally would. I actually did it completely the wrong way by, like, blowing up and, like, saying things that I didn't mean and.

Nicole [01:02:37]: Which they weren't bad, by the way. They were, like, just for everyone. It's not like, you know, it wasn't.

John [01:02:43]: Really bad, but it wasn't good.

Nicole [01:02:45]: It was bad for Nicole.

John [01:02:46]: It wasn't bad. It was. And I didn't mean those things. And we constantly talked to Sophia about saying not saying things that you don't mean when I was set. And I did that, and, you know, I had to own up to that because, like, yeah, that isn't okay to do, and I did that thing, and I had to own up to that.

Nicole [01:03:05]: But, you know, we're growing and learning, and we had a good. I mean, we had it facilitated a good conversation about letting go of expectations and things like that as well, which I think is just a good thing for everyone. Everyone needs to do that. Your life will be a lot less anxiety. You'll have a lot more. It is hard.

John [01:03:22]: It is a hard thing to do. Just flip the switch. But, yeah, it was a beneficial conversation, but it was A lot.

Nicole [01:03:30]: Yeah. And the big thing is. And I think the most important thing is that we have these conversations even when we mess up, because we do, like, because we're not perfect. We're better than perfect, which is. Which is not the same.

John [01:03:43]: But that's the part of it.

Nicole [01:03:44]: What makes it better than perfect is.

John [01:03:45]: We'Re having the hard conversations. And it was funny because after we had that conversation, I went to one of my workout classes, and, you know, she was like, find the ease in the effort and find the effort in the ease. And at the end, she was like, you know, even the hard conversations that you have to have, find the ease in that. And I think that was like, that's what we do. Like, you have to put the effort in to have the hard conversations, but it brings you ease, and it brings you more peace when you do that and you're learning new things and you learned them the hard way, so they last longer, in my opinion. You know, like, they really impact you. So, yeah, that really resonated.

Nicole [01:04:28]: And we don't end up. And I think the thing is that we. That we end up not having resentment afterwards. We totally resolve the thing, because that's what we talked about in the last episode, about how the thing that causes.

John [01:04:39]: Like, the nagging, like, the division of.

Nicole [01:04:42]: Is the resentment that builds up over time. That's why the relationships get out of the honeymoon phase.

John [01:04:47]: That's why you have.

Nicole [01:04:47]: You keep in the honeymoon phase as long as you get rid of the. As long as you keep the resentment phase from building up.

John [01:04:52]: Yeah, well. And you have to be honest. You have to have the hard conversations. You have to be honest about your feelings. You have to be honest about the things you're going through and talk about it.

Nicole [01:05:01]: Oh, and the last thing I'll say is that we kind of derived from that conversation also was that in a relationship, I should be looking out 100% for Nicole's heart, and she should be looking out for mine. We get into trouble when we're looking out for. For ourselves, which happens because we're like, oh, no, this person's not going to take care of me as good as I'm going to take care of myself. And as soon as we do that, that's where we spiral into all of the bad things. So it's like, if I'm just focused 100% as a man on my wife and making sure that I'm watching out for her heart and her interests, and I have trust that she's watching out for mine, and vice versa, then you will be smooth sailing. Everything will be just great, so.

John [01:05:46]: Right. I agree.

Nicole [01:05:48]: All right. Well, that was. Was good. Glad to get that one done. Ready for the hate mail? We'll see you guys next week. Take care. Through every fault we find our way.