John: So, that brings us to porn and romance novels. Is pornography cheating? Porn, yes. Okay, like you are literally seeing people naked and involved in intimate acts. 95% of guys are addicted to porn, so we're going to get a lot of angry people right now. But I have a question. I want to know, from a guy's perspective, if a woman was watching porn, would a man care? It's interesting. Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We plead each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find a way. Welcome to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we show you how two imperfect people helping each other equals one better than perfect relationship. And this week's podcast topic belongs to Nicole.

Nicole: Yes, it does. Or we're just going to dive right in. I mean, I guess we can. We could talk about whatever else you want. Happy belated Thanksgiving. It's Thanksgiving for us, but not for you. Have Merry Christmas, maybe. There you go. It might end up lining up perfectly. Yeah, we'll see. We got to create a little bit of a buffer, so yeah, in case we miss a week. So, we record, and we are time travelers. So, that's how it works. Alright, yeah. So, this topic for this week is going to be about cheating and is it ever okay to cheat? Okay, and like, what is cheating, and like, technically, I mean, you know, people have different views of that, right? So, I don't know if you want to go into your feelings, or you want me to kind of give a little blurb about how I feel, and then yeah, maybe you can start with this one.

John: Yeah, let's get your perspective.

Nicole: So, I mean, as someone who has been cheated on, and even before that, obviously, physical cheating, most people would say is not okay. It's a deal breaker. I mean, some people, you know, work through those things, and that's their prerogative, but cheating is definitely and absolutely not okay. And even in the situation where I got cheated on, like I just saw them laying on the couch together, and it looked pretty suspicious. So, that was good enough for me, and I was like, dunzo. Right. And having said that, even non-physical versions of cheating, I would say, are still technically cheating. Like, you know, texting some other woman, even if the guy hasn't met up with another woman, flirting with her, or like, you know, in her DMs, whatever. I would probably take it to more of the extreme, right, just because how I feel about it is that those things tell me that this person is not fully invested in me, and I only want to be with someone who's fully invested in me. So, it's not even necessarily like, oh, like I'm just being super strict to try to prevent somebody from doing something. The thing is that I wouldn't want to be with that person if he's even messaging other women or showing his interest in someone else, which might be unrealistic because a lot of people will say, well, men are visual creatures, and men, you know, are very physical beings. And yes, I understand the truth in that, but I also don't see it as an excuse. Like, have some self-control. Right. I agree. And so, the bottom line is, I'd rather be on my own than with someone that's not invested in me. Like, if I'm committing to you to be in a relationship, I expect the same back, which I mean, expectations, you know, we talked about that. But what I'm saying is, my standard, exactly, you are invested in me, you're committing to me, we're exclusively together. If you're flirting with someone else, no matter what that looks like, that shows me you're not invested in me. So, yeah, I would say it, even all that's missing is the opportunity. Right. So, if someone's texting someone else, flirting with someone else, that kind of thing, they are cheating because the only thing that's missing is the opportunity. They're proving that. Right. And if you're doing it and you wouldn't actually do it, then why are you doing it? Right. Exactly. Yeah. So, it's like still unacceptable behavior. But yeah, I think that's my side. I mean, I'm sure as we go into it, we'll talk more about men cheating versus women cheating, but I want to give you an opportunity to talk about your views on it as a whole type of thing.

John: Yeah, so mine is actually pretty complicated. We're going to get, I guess we'll get into it. But so, my experience with it is actually being on the other side of being the cheater. And so, I mean, I'll say that what I've learned from that experience is that I agree with you 100%. It's never okay under any circumstance. It's better to leave the relationship. It's better to, even if there are a lot of circumstances that you would think that it would be better, what someone doesn't know doesn't hurt them. Even though that sounds pretty bad, at the time, it can be rationalized, and there are a lot of situations where that rationalization does make a lot of sense. However, it is still ends up turning out to be a bad idea. I mean, I would disagree with that because, I mean, personally, it's kind of hard because I know everybody's different, and I'm sure some people do agree with what you have to say, but I value honesty. Right. So, I don't really ever see a time where it's like, what they don't know won't hurt them. I agree with, I understand that in a literal sense, yes, like if you don't tell somebody something hurtful, they won't be hurt. Right. But at the end of the day, I do feel like people are entitled to know things, and sometimes people use that saying to keep something from somebody because they don't want to hurt them, but they're actually doing something that hurts them way more and causes them way more trauma in the long run. I agree. No, I agree 100%. I'm not saying that it is the case that what someone doesn't know doesn't hurt them. I'm saying that it can be justified or rationalized in that way. Right. That's the rationale for some. I'm sure that's what goes through someone's mind when they're doing stuff like that. But yeah, my story is actually so, uh, trying to think about the level of details to give. But I mean, eventually, I'll give more and more details as we talk about the podcast as it's relevant. Right. I think that's the best way to talk about it, or maybe we have an episode talking about it. But uh, but yeah. So, I was married before Nicole, and in that relationship, it was a 20-year relationship, so it was a very long time. And towards the end of that, I was ready to be done. The way that things had played out, not to say that I was faultless initially, but there was a lot of, let's just say that my needs weren't being fulfilled in that relationship. I didn't feel like I was being respected as a man. I was not happy with a lot of things that were happening in that relationship, and instead of leaving, because I had a large financial interest because I have a daughter, I decided, well, you know, if I'm not happy, and nothing

John: This is going my way. I only have one life to live. I'm just gonna go and do what I want to do, right? I've tried everything, and it's really hard to condense this into something that doesn't just seem horribly bad because it is still horribly bad. I don't want to call out other people, but let's just say that I felt like it was an emotionally abusive relationship for me. That was my feeling about the relationship. I had worked on it significantly, spent a lot of time trying to make things work, and I finally hit a point where I was just at the end of my rope and was just ready to give up. Instead of actually going through and getting a separation or a divorce, which is what I should have done, the rationale for it, which made sense to me at the time, was, "Do you really need to destroy everybody's lives? Do you need to destroy your financial future? Do you need to have your daughter end up having a split home?" Those were the rationalizations.

Nicole: Can I pick your brain for a second? Since you have cheated, I can talk to you to get more information. Was there ever a time in your mind where you were like, "If they find out, it's going to be even worse than doing it before I've done something that is morally wrong"?

John: I was sort of at the point where I was so fed up that it's almost like a serial killer that leaves clues in order to get caught. I started doing the most extreme things.

Nicole: But did you ever stop and think, "Blowing this up this way and leaving clues is actually way worse than splitting up my family by sitting down and having those hard conversations"? I'm only asking this because I feel like a lot of men who cheat have the same reasoning. They're like, "I don't want to hurt somebody by having a conversation to hurt them," but they don't see that the hurt that is actually really bad.

John: A couple of things were going on. Like I said, the serial killer thing, I'm talking about leaving clues because, in some way, I wanted things to blow up. You wanted her to be the one to leave so that you didn't have to have the hard conversation. You're probably right, but you're probably leaving clues so that she would catch on, and she'd be like, "I'm not taking this," and she would have to be the one to end the relationship. That takes off the pressure of having to have that hard conversation because you didn't really want to be there. It was just like a self-destructive type of thing. When you're so miserable and fed up, you're just like, "I want something." I sort of became very emotionally numb. Part of what I was doing was bringing some sense of emotion to my life. When I would go out and pick up girls and do these crazy things, it was like I would fall in love for a night, and it was like, "Okay, now I can feel things again." It's the adrenaline; it's getting my heart pumping. Maybe if my whole life blows up, that will feel like something. But it's not something that you rationally think about, like what are the true implications of what this will do and the harm that will cause not just you but every person even remotely connected.

Nicole: Do you think that's a male thing? Because women are more emotional, and so we're thinking that if I do this, it's going to have even more implications than if I have to sit down and be like, "Hey, I don't really want to do this anymore."

John: What usually happens, in my experience, is that men are more likely to physically cheat, and women are more likely to emotionally cheat a little bit and then have the conversation and then go and do the physical cheating. A woman usually, if she's with a man, will find another guy and start an emotional connection with him. When she feels like that emotional connection is established enough, then she'll leave the guy she's with. Guys can cheat physically and then actually catch feelings. It's still very similar. It's having your cake and eating it too because you're not leaving the person you should be leaving, but you're going out and searching for whatever you're missing in that actual relationship.

Nicole: I understand what you're saying about being numb because I experienced that after I had been cheated on. You go through the same things. You experience some trauma in that relationship which caused you to reach this breaking point where you're just numbing it out. You really didn't think about the future. You were just thinking about, "This is my life. I want to live it. Let me go get what I need right now." But when you're numb, that is what you do. You don't really think about your actions. You're very impulsive. You don't really have any sort of emotion, good or bad, towards the things that you're doing. Like you said, you're numb, so you have to go to extremes a lot of the time to even feel anything. Then you constantly have to keep doing that because you don't feel anything normally. You have to do these outlandish things to actually have feeling.

John: Right. But what I did was wrong and messed up. It was not a good thing. I'm giving the rationalizations for what I was thinking at the time, but it's not a rationalization for today. My views are obviously different now. It was not a good idea then; it's never a good idea. It results in—

Nicole: Are the things that someone might be thinking, and even though those things might seem to make sense, it's very important to teach men, and obviously women too. I'm not saying that women don't, but as a woman, I do feel like we feel that men typically cheat more because men are physical and they're willing to throw it all away for a night with this one girl, you know? Like, and then they'll be like, "It didn't mean anything." Like you said, most of the time, women, when they cheat, I'm not saying it makes it right or better, right, but they're like now fully invested in this other person most of the time. Like, they're really not going to go for a one-night stand normally to throw away their relationship because women do typically want a relationship with a man, whereas men typically want something for the night or just physical.

John: Well, they did some studies too, and there's a famous set of studies where they tested the responses, right? And what they found was that women typically were more upset if a man cheated emotionally than physically. So if a man had meaningless sex with some woman, yeah, of course, they were upset, but they were way more upset if he had feelings for this woman. So, in fact, a very common response that men give when they cheat and they get caught is like, "Oh, she doesn't mean anything to me." Now, on the opposite side, men were much more angry when a woman had physically cheated than if she had an emotional connection with another guy.

Nicole: That there is a bit of an element to that which just goes to what we are saying, is that that's why you see that kind of behavior more normalized. Like, I think women have been sort of brainwashed in a way. How I feel, sure. So, I feel like, kind of going back to my description of cheating and what I think is acceptable, I think women have been told so much that men are physical, like he's going to look, boys will be boys, and so they feel like they have to tolerate that because every man will be that way. And that's what they're told. That's why, oh well, if he had sex, like, you know, he just needed a hole for the night. Like, that sounds so horrible, but like, you know, that's why he can be like, "It was just sex, it didn't mean anything." And that's why women believe it, I think sometimes, is because they're taught like, well, guys are going to look, and they're going to, you know, they're visual creatures. They're going to be staring at other women all the time. Like, you, that's just what's going to happen. And so, women feel like, okay, well, I can't have unrealistic expectations, but I think they should go back to being like, no, this is not okay. Like, he's obviously not invested fully, and if you're in a committed relationship and someone's not fully invested, right, they're like one foot in one foot out. They're literally like standing on the doorway of a relationship and being single. And like you said, just waiting for the people he's flirting with to give him the go-ahead, and then he'll go. And then hope he'll hope that you will take him back because it was just sex. But you know, it's complicated too because I feel like people are also like, once a cheater, always a cheater. And like, I even felt like that. And like, you know, when I found out you cheated, it was like the biggest thing to me because I was like, I had been cheated on, and I was like, I'm never doing this again. Like, you know, and I did believe, you know, once a cheater, always a cheater. I'm like, okay, well, you know, they do maybe get addicted to this behavior. And I think, I think that's generally true. I think once a cheater, always a cheater is generally true. I think that is a rule that you should normally have because I think that once you've crossed a line, it's easier to cross that line again. Now, obviously, I believe that I'm an exception in that case, but I do think that it is smart to think in terms of those things because I think that does make sense. Now, again, like I said, I can say that my circumstance was a very extenuating circumstance in my case because of the history and all the things that had gone on, which we can't discuss all; we don't have time in this full podcast. But yet, to say that I, that was never something I never wanted to be that guy. I always wanted what we have, and I had sought that out for so many years in my relationship and worked through so much stuff and just kept on giving chances and chances and chances. And by the time that I gotten so worn out, I just didn't feel like anything meant anything in life. I was just like, I'm, you know, whatever. I'm getting older. I'm just going to live my life and accept whatever consequences come and just do whatever the hell that I want to do. Like, people would say that it was a midlife crisis, and I mean, maybe, maybe. I mean, it fits all the things for a midlife crisis, you know.

Nicole: Well, I think it's hard to say that without like everybody knowing the full extent because you did go through a lot of things. And I think you are right. I think you have to look at a person's character, right? And like, is this fitting of their character? Because I think that's what really saved you, honestly, when I was deciding whether I could do this or not, is because I was like, you know, he really doesn't seem like that type of person to do that. And even you said you were looking for love for a night, right? Like, you were still looking for love. Like, you weren't really looking for, you know, just a bunch of hookups. And, you know, I feel like it's the people that almost like border on the like sex addiction thing, where it's like they would probably hook up with anybody that gave them the opportunity. Yeah, because it's like they're addicted to the thing rather than like, you were looking for love. You weren't just like trying to fulfill this addiction that you had. And there was a lot of things that were going on just psychologically for me. I had gotten married at 21, again, not an excuse, but I had not, at the time, I was not very masculine. I was not very confident in myself, especially in my sexual self, and with women. And I had, that was always a deep insecurity. That's also what pulled me in that direction as well, is because I, you were trying to prove to yourself.

John: I was trying to prove to myself, yeah, exactly. Trying to prove to myself, but not just to myself, but to anyone, that I was desirable, right? Or worthy, good enough, or worthy of being loved. That's what a lot of people are trying. And because of the relationship that I was in, where I didn't feel like that, it was like a desperate need for me. And then, that's the other thing about it, is that when I met you, it was, I had felt like I have already, now there's nothing left to prove. In fact, when I met you, I was like, oh shoot.

John: This is... I could have had a girl like this. This is what I should have had. I didn't think that was possible, but yeah. So, there was a lot of things going on. Not justifying any of the things. It was still horribly bad what I did. I mean, I made bad choices, obviously. But what ended up happening was that it ended up creating a lot more pain for everybody involved.

Nicole: Well, that's what I'm saying. Even now, like if you think about it now, right? It's like even this podcast. In the sense that I could sit here, and we could avoid this topic completely and not ever talk about cheating on the podcast, or I could just say, "Oh yeah, no, you should never cheat," and not talk about my... I have to now, every time, give a full disclosure and say, "This is what I did." I think it's good because you made the mistake, and you realize how bad it is. And I think men need men like you to own up to the things they did that was wrong and show them why doing it this way is wrong. Because they are so afraid to sit a woman down and be like, "I don't think this is working out anymore. I want to see other people," because they're afraid of how hurt she's going to be. And it's going to be hurtful, but she is going to be hurt from you just going and doing what you want behind her back. And plus, too, like, guys aren't always the most responsible sexually, so she could also be exposed to things that she didn't even know. And so it's like now you're really just like, it's almost like saying "fuck you" by doing that, rather than sitting down and being like, "Hey, I enjoyed the time that we had, but I think our time has run its course," or something. Whatever, you can put it super nice. And I get that when you're married, there's a lot more on the line, but it's also a lot more to lose. And I'm sure that you realize that, like, you're going to lose it either way. Do you want to lose it with dignity, or do you want to lose it by being the person that was wrong and doing something that was morally wrong?

John: And there was part of me that was like, "Fuck you." Like, there was that part of it was like, "Okay, you asked for this." You know what I'm saying? Obviously, that's not... you know, that's toxic. I mean, that's not like, no one deserves to have that feeling. And another reason to just have the conversation. Like, you know, like I get it, your full story. So it's like, but you have to, like, if you're there and you really do be like, "Fuck you," which is understandable. Some people get to a point where they're like, "Fuck you," you know, like they want to go balls to the wall. But at the end of the day, that's going to hurt you too, even though you don't realize it now. But I'm just saying, for other guys, like, you don't think that you can just be like, "Oh, I'm going to do this so it'll be like a 'fuck you,' and then whatever." But that hurts you. It does. Maybe not in that moment because you're doing what you want to do, but further on down the line, for sure.

John: Yeah, it does. It's... I mean, the other day, I was thinking about it. I felt like I was the unwitting hand of karma delivery. I was like, it's like the karma... I was the delivery of the karma mechanism, but unwittingly. Like, I was so unaware of what I was doing that I became that vehicle that delivered that karma. And being that vehicle is not a good thing. You don't want to deliver karma to someone. You don't want to be the thing that causes... Normally, I feel like you don't deliver karma where you're going to get karma for doing the karma delivering.

Nicole: Well, that's what I'm saying, is that a lot of times, that is the case. You don't want to be that because the aftermath of that... Because afterwards, then you do have... I did have to contend with a lot of guilt and shame around because when I realized like, "Man, what I was pretty fucked up." It's like you were on numb autopilot too, so you didn't care then. But then the second your icy heart started to melt, then you felt all the things that you weren't feeling when you were in numb mode. And then that really drove you crazy.

John: Yeah, yeah. So, it is... You know, you can get to a point where you're just so tired that you just don't care. And that's where I got to. But again, like I said, it's no justification for any of these things. I would say now that it is correct to say that cheating, under any circumstances, is wrong. They should... And again, it's not even just that it's wrong for the other person; it's wrong for you morally because you're doing something that is destructive to you. Because it required a lot of recovery from me to just deal with what I did.

John: Well, you're not being honest. Now you have to add on all these other things. You're lying to this person. There's no way you can cheat and stay in a relationship and then go out and be intimate with other people or whatever you're doing, cheating-wise, and then come back and not have to lie. Of course, there's no way. And like we talked about another podcast, like the core thing to any relationship is honesty. You cannot be truly intimate with somebody if you're not honest with them. And that's also why sitting down and having an honest conversation is the only way that you won't totally mess up yourself and the other person. Like, there will be feelings. That's normal, and that's fine. Like, we're adults. We have to handle our feelings. And even if somebody, like, even if you had a conversation with her and she blew up your phone and trying to get you back and all these things, you can be respectful and keep your space. But like, don't allow somebody else, no matter how bad it is, and I know that's really hard, to bring you down to a level that's not you. Like, speak your truth, be honest. And I know it's not easy to have hard conversations with people, but that is what's necessary.

Nicole: And for women too, I don't want to totally go all in on men because I do realize that women cheat too. But I'm just saying, mostly from a man's perspective of cheating, is because they are more physical people, and so it does tend to be physical. But you're right, like women do typically cheat emotionally. And it also, I feel like, tends to be women who have maybe been in relationships back to back to back, and they don't know how to be alone. So they're afraid to be alone, and so they're trying to line up, you know, the next one so that she always has somebody there to be codependent on. Like, I understand that.

John: That is a possibility too. I understand that sometimes, maybe a woman will even go do a one-night stand and throw away her relationship. But it's like, regardless of whether you're a man or a woman, have the hard conversation. I understand it's not easy, but it will benefit everybody in the long run.

Nicole: Cheating harms everybody in the long run.

John: Yeah, I agree with you. No, it's true. It is hard to have the hard conversation. And again, some of the things, it's funny, it's like almost all of the things that I have learned that I tell people about are things that I have learned the hard way. So I'm sort of that guy, right?

Nicole: Well, yeah, that's what it seems like.

John: But like, even we did the episode on the six things, you know, for a relationship. What would we call those? Like the TR or the six boundaries?

Nicole: Yeah, basically.

John: That's why do you think I know what that list should be, right? Because if that list was in the situation I was in, I would have had to make a different decision. I would have had to either not done it at all or said I'm leaving. Because there would be no wiggle room there. And that's why, again, it doesn't mean that you have to have those things in order, you know, you should trust someone aside from that. But it's also for your own protection as well, right? Because if I had those things implemented in that relationship, it would have prevented me from choosing the wrong path. I would have just had to leave, which would have been a smarter thing to do.

Nicole: So, but it's, you know, it is a hard thing to deal with. And it's hard for you too because it's like, you know, I'm sure people are like, well, can you, I mean, how can you know that he's not a cheater now, you know? Because that's, you know, it is a valid question.

John: So as someone who, like I said, been cheated on, and it was very traumatic because it was with my best friend of like 14 years in my apartment that I lived with him. So like, it was a very big deal, right? You know, like, I was like, I'm never going to date a cheater, like yada yada. And so I think it speaks volumes about you. Not to be like that, I do want to be with you, but it's because I know who you are deep down. And like, I have told you multiple times that what you did is wrong, you know that, right? But I don't think that is who you are to your core. And you know, if you didn't end up doing that to me, I have a standard, like I just talked about, that that's unacceptable. And I think, like, I want to empathize with people though, who or like women who are in a marriage or a long-term thing and their husband has cheated and they've tried to work it out. 'Cause I get that, like not every situation's going to be the same. Like if they can do that, like more power to them. Like they are strong in what they're doing. If it's for love, like if it's just for comfort, you should really think about it. But if it's because you really love this person, you really think that they made a mistake that they would not do again, right? I can even understand that. Now, would I do the same thing as them? Probably not, to be honest. 'Cause again, I'm a very like, you're all in or you're all out. Because I'm not the type of person that wants somebody that is like straddling the line.

John: Exactly. Even if it's like 98% in the relationship and 2% might go over here because 2% can turn into 100% real quick, right? So, you know, I just want to say though that like, I even, our situation, people would probably be like, if they've gone through some of the things that we went through, be like, no, I'm not doing it. But it's like, so it is different. Details do matter. That also created the situation that we had to go through because of what I had left as loose ends and unprocessed things, which made it so that because if I had gotten a divorce, been, you know, and then I meet you years later after I've dealt with all the stuff from the cheating and the trauma and all the stuff, it would have been pretty smooth sailing, right? You know, it was like I was going through my own guilt, my own shame, all of the kind of stuff that was happening, you know. That's why it's so, but you know, but at the same time, it was a growing process as well. Like, you know, we're here for the benefit of other people to learn these things we've learned through that process. So it's important. I mean, like people are going to make their own mistakes, but at least if you have some knowledge, it makes it, it can lessen the blow, if that makes sense, or like cause you to make different choices. You know, like if you start to feel like, oh well, I think Brad over there is looking good, maybe you should reflect and be like, why am I looking at other people if I'm in this relationship? You know, like, is this relationship I'm in really what I want, or do I want Brad? And if I really want Brad, right, then I need to have a conversation with this person.

Nicole: Well, this actually brings up a good topic, which maybe we can delve into, the things that people think aren't cheating, which are cheating, or on the slippery slope to cheating, right? So one of them is like celebrity crush type of situations.

John: Right, we've talked about this before. You probably should have saved that one for last because, like most people, this resonates with what you're saying. But I mean, this is because it's the same thing, like you were saying about women being brainwashed to have the center, oh, it's just a guy, he'll just look, he's just going to do those things. But it's also given a pass for women and men about celebrity crush. You see someone on TV, they're like, oh look at, you know, what's his name.

Nicole: I would say that that's even maybe a counter-response that women have to kind of equalize it, to be honest. Like, I'm not saying 100%, but if women are like, well, he's going to look, he's a visual creature, they just want physical stuff, then she probably is like, well then, I think Harry Styles is super hot. So like, you know, if he can do it, then I can do it, right? That's where I feel like a lot of the time, this even comes from. It's because it's like, now it's like a battle of, well, if you're going to look at other people, I'm going to look at other people, and then that just further drives the wedge. I'm not saying that that's always the case, always the reason, but I'm just saying, like, most women are conditioned to believe this thing, and so at the same time, they might be like, well, if he's going to look, then I.

John: I have to just deal with it then. I'm going to have a crush, and he's just going to have to deal with it, right? And that's obviously not a healthy way to handle the situation because it's not good for either person. It's an insult and disrespectful to your partner to say that someone else is attractive.

Nicole: I had a celebrity crush before you came along. My job literally had a whole birthday party at one point that was designed around this celebrity crush. And honestly, it's going to sound like I'm lying, but when you came along, you fulfilled everything that I've ever even imagined. I don't even remotely think about that person that I had a huge celebrity crush on. It's like gone because there is no looking up to somebody else. I have so much admiration for you and respect and love that it just doesn't even cross my mind. So, I feel like if you're feeling those things, it can be a time to reflect on who you're with. Obviously, I was single for a lot of it, so it was just like a little "oh, he's cute." But if you're in a relationship and you're still obsessing over a celebrity or somebody that you think is so hot that you don't even know, you are creating a sort of divide there.

John: And that frequently happens as well. Guys have celebrity crushes too. Guys vocalize it, but vocalizing it, even just doing it, because you're supposed to give yourself 100% to your partner. If you're lusting after someone else, it's not... Well, and people also have the argument of like, "Well, humans aren't supposed to be attracted to only one person," and I'm just like, that just sounds again like the "guys are going to look so just get over it." Those things sound the same to me. It may be true that there is some amount of difficulty, but it's a matter of training your mind and having the discipline and making the choice that you're making. You're fully invested then. It's almost like you have blinders on.

Nicole: Because you can see an attractive person, guy or girl, walking down the street, but if you're invested in your relationship, it's not distracting. You just notice that, like you would acknowledge a child running down the street, but you're not going to be still thinking about that. So, that brings us to porn and romance novels.

John: That should be like a separate thing because I feel like that's like, could go... Is that cheating? Is pornography cheating?

Nicole: Yes. Like, you are literally seeing people naked and involved in intimate acts. I feel like that would be cheating. Well, not like full-blown cheating, but again, it's the slippery slope. If you put that effort into being with your partner, don't you think your sex life would improve?

John: Of course. So, like, I think there's a lot of guys that are like, "95% of guys are addicted to porn," so we're going to get a lot of angry people right now. But I would say that if you're a guy, if you're having a porn problem and you're in a relationship with a woman and you're not trying to address it, if you're just like, "Oh, it's okay," if you're not working on it because an addiction is a hard thing to break, then that's a problem. Now you're more in the cheating zone.

Nicole: I have a question. From like, I want to know a guy's perspective. If a woman was watching porn, would a man care?

John: It's interesting. So, it's the same thing as when guys ask me, "Oh yeah, it'd be cool if my girl was into girls," right? It's like, if she had a lesbian encounter, and I'm like, "Yeah, that seems really cool," except that you would have to then really question the intimacy level of your relationship. It's almost in the same way, like a guy might be like, "Oh yeah, she's watching porn, that's great," just because of the sexual type of thing. But it comes down to that same exact psychological study. A guy would be less offended by a woman watching porn. It might depend on what kind she was watching or if she was incorporating it into their relationship.

Nicole: So, wouldn't a man be a little insecure about that? Like, "I'm not good enough for her; she's watching this porn."

John: If she wasn't interested in having sex with you and she was watching porn, then you would start to be like, "Okay." I think most guys wouldn't care as much if she's watching porn and then having sex. But the real equivalent for because men are visual, pornography is a visual medium. What women do is they read smut novels, Harley Quinn romance novels, 50 Shades of Gray type of stuff. That is the equivalent of women watching porn because that is the same. It's because a woman is more sexually turned on, her sexual apparatus works in the mind more so than the visual. If a woman reads some novels, do I think that that is a bad thing? No, but if she's obsessed with reading romance novels and obsessed with the idea, the dirty ones, and the love idea of trying to get the romance that she's missing from the relationship from the novel, then it becomes a problem. It really does start to become that because where is your investment?

John: Then they would both be porn for men because they're visual and books for women because it's like she's living in this fantasy land, which I think that women want men to act the way they do in romance novels, and a lot of men don't. And I'm not justifying being obsessed with smut novels because you're not getting it in real life. Again, I think you should leave your partner and go find somebody that will give you the romance and the intimacy that you're reading in the books because then you don't care. I will occasionally read a book that's popular, and it might have instances like that, but I'm not searching for that. It's the equivalent of, look, you watch a rated R movie, we watch a movie together, there's some nudity, there's a sex scene, it's like that. That's not the same thing as actively seeking it out. So, if you read a romance novel or whatever, you're reading the story, but if you're actively seeking out, "I'm missing romance in my life, I'm reading romance novels, I'm reading smut novels because I'm using this as a substitute for my actual sex life," then it starts to become problematic. At the heart of the idea of cheating is this idea that you are not giving your 100% self to the person that you're in a committed relationship with, whether that be your emotions, your physical body, your sexuality. Those needs aren't being met, and instead of having a conversation to try to fix those, you're turning to an easy fix, which actually gets you further away from what you want. So, let's say a couple, the guy is not getting as much sex as he wants, so he starts watching porn, and the woman's not getting romanced like those romance novels make women feel, so she keeps reading the books. Instead of talking about it and trying to meet each other's needs, now you're just doing it on your own, and you're getting further and further away.

Nicole: And if you do have a conversation and it just doesn't align, then you need to leave. You can find it. I feel like people stay in situations a lot of the time when they shouldn't. And I understand because it is hard to date, and it's hard to put yourself out there. But people will stay in a place that they don't belong so that they don't have to fight or figure out the discomfort of dating again. And so, it's like you end up, I feel like, in a worse situation by being somewhere you know you don't belong than just having to bite the bullet, have a hard conversation, and go put yourself out there and potentially meet the person that gives you all the things that you want because you think it's not out there. Or like people have told you, "Oh, you're too picky," which I heard all the time, and I'm so glad I didn't listen to any of those people because now I have even better than I could have ever imagined. And like I said, people might not believe me, but I don't have any of these things that I used to have because you fulfill all the needs that I have, and that's what you should look for. And sometimes it's also because I think sometimes people can get into this habit of just switching partners because they're like, "Oh, I need to find this person," and I think that's also destructive. Sometimes the answer is that you can work it out and figure it out. So, for example, one of the reasons why porn and romance novels are bad things is because they meet a need that you have at a lower level. When you get a need met at a lower level, you don't go and get it met at the higher level. So, for example, if you're really thirsty and there's just pond water around, you could drink pond water. It will quench your thirst. It's not a good idea; it's going to make you sick. It's not healthy for you to drink pond water, I'm pretty sure, but maybe there's some good bacterias in there, but probably a lot of bad bacterias. But my point is that they will quench the thirst that will make it so that you don't go and seek the real water. So, if you're a guy, if you're looking at porn, you're not addressing sexual issues in your relationship with your girlfriend or wife instead and trying to get those needs met in that way. And if you can't, and that's not acceptable to you, then sure, then maybe that relationship isn't for you. And the same thing on the woman's side, if you're reading romance novels because you're not getting the romance, that's preventing you from actually feeling enough pain to do something, to either leave or to address it. So, you'll just stay in it. You'll stay in a situation that is not so good, like a drug abuser just getting high to feel normal instead of getting out of the situation. And that's the real problem with those things. I mean, it's kind of a separate issue, but it is a slippery slope to cheating because what I feel like in a lot of those cases, especially like celebrity crush, romance novels, porn, is that the only thing that's missing is opportunity. And that's the danger of it. It's like if you had the opportunity with the celebrity crush, a lot of people would, right? They even joke and say, "Oh, you got a pass for this one person," and that's kind of messed up, actually. It's like if a guy had an opportunity with the porn stars he's addicted to and keeps on seeking out, then he probably would take it. If a woman was able to find the man in her romance novel, would she take that opportunity? So, that's where it becomes a very slippery slope because opportunity is the only thing that's missing, and that's dangerous. The more we talk about all these things, for me, I feel like what I keep stressing is like checking in with your relationship and do it when it's starting because even checking in is like what I said to you about when you told me about the cheating and I found that out. I would have normally left, but I had known who you were to your core and your character, and I knew that didn't really align with what you did, like cheating. And also, I knew where you were coming from, and so it's constantly checking in. So, even if I had made that decision about you, and then a few months later, I found you texting someone.

John: Other girls then, I probably would have left, you know, because it's like, okay, well, I made a bad judgment, right? And this happened, and I'm checking in and realizing I'm not doing that, so it's time for me to go. So, I think the key to all of this stuff is like checking in where you're at and having the hard conversations to fix things or, unfortunately, having a conversation to end things.

Nicole: Yeah, no, absolutely. I agree with that 100%. So, I guess we should probably wrap it up here. I talk a lot, I know. Real quick though, before we wrap this up and go into the last segment since we're running out of time, is, and I'll say that at some point, I'll just give the full story of my whole situation because it really is hard to judge it from this one podcast. I hope it doesn't come across as too, you know, whatever. I mean, some people are just going to hate me now, so that's fine. But, I mean, I will dedicate a full podcast episode if people are interested in the exact full story. I think that's worth doing. But, I mean, I get that, but I also think that you don't have to fully explain.

John: Yeah, I mean, I figure as want to as it comes up. I think that the pieces that make sense, but the last thing I wanted to make sure that we addressed with this was the, because we addressed both the extreme end and the both extremes at the end, but what about in the middle, the gray area where it's like texting someone, liking someone's Instagram posts, right? Messaging someone, responding to someone's messages, you know what I mean? Doing those things.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, it's like, can you prevent a person of the opposite sex from texting you? No, but like we talked about on other episodes, like being transparent, you know, hey, this happened. If you have to respond, like thinking about it, you know, or like, you know, talking about it or figuring out if it's even worth responding to. And you know, liking other women's pictures or men's pictures, like, no, obviously, like, that is, again, this could be like a whole thing because to me, that's like showing interest. Like, and even it could be as a friend, it could, like, but the person could misinterpret, right? Like, you could like another girl's picture as a friend and just be like encouraging them, but she might be like, oh, he might be interested, and then she starts liking all your pictures, and then maybe she slides in your DMs to kind of test the waters, right? It's just like, with social media and all these ways to stay connected, it's just more opportunities for people to try to come in and, you know, unfortunately, there are men and women who see something good and want to try to wreck it, and that's their sort of chaos fund that they want to have, right? Like, you know, that definitely happens. I mean, you even told me that men or women are more likely to hit on men that have a wedding ring on, and I was just like, what? Like, that's such bad juju to me, like, you know, like, stay away from something that is obviously off the market. Like, you're just going to get yourself in trouble, you're going to get them in trouble, you know, like, don't involve yourself in that drama and have the karma come back to you. But yeah, so it's just like, I would stay away from any sort of thing like that, to be honest. And it's not like a control thing, it's that you should be 100% invested in what you have, right? Like, obviously, if you're single, sure, like whatever picture, but I would even say, don't like a married man's picture, right?

John: Yeah, exactly, you know, or like men too, you know, whatever, but it's like, just don't even, you won't even want to do those things if you're fully invested in what you have. And if you're not fully invested in what you have and you feel yourself drawn to liking like guy model pictures or sending a guy a DM or like, whatever, or like commenting a winky face on someone's picture and you're in a relationship, like again, check back in because that doesn't align with being in a relationship.

Nicole: Yeah, I would say that the general rule would be don't even create the appearance of infidelity. It doesn't matter what you intended, but the general rule is don't even create the appearance. If someone of the opposite sex texts you, show your partner. Don't even make it, even if you just say something innocent back, show what you said because now there's no appearance of wrongdoing. Like, just completely don't go out to a bar by yourself where you could be construed of doing, just if your location's on, you're good to go. Like all these things, like no appearance of any wrongdoing. As long as you think about it that way, then there's no question about it, and then you don't have to worry. Partners don't have to worry. But again, like we could go, whenever you have to hide, if you're having to hide something, whatever it is, in fact, that's the other thing, is if you're having to hide it from your partner, in some ways, that's cheating. Honesty is the best policy, withholding information for the end of time, like be honest, period.

John: Well, I think we covered that one pretty good. Got through that sweating about that one. But let's talk about our relationship this week. What is it? So it's my turn to talk about something. So, let's see. So what happened this week was, I was taking my daughter to her orthodontist appointment, and I took her to get a burger and a milkshake, and I told Nicole about it, and then, you know, she got a little bit upset about it because, we don't give desserts all the time, and stuff, and I'm a very big rule follower, and there's a reason we have rules. So I felt like in that moment, like the rules only matter when you decide that they matter, and it felt like we were kind of going back because we weren't following the rules. So it's not about like a milkshake, it's like there is more detail to that because you're going to make me sound crazy for a milkshake. Like, the thing is, we have a rule where we do like one dessert a week, and we had Cheesecake Factory delivered to our house, so we had the dessert of all desserts. So it's like, you know, and then there was a time where Sophia also talked about, I said her name, oh, it's okay, well, she, where she talked about, you know, being kind of confused because sometimes you, you know, are a little bit more relaxed with the rules. Like, I'm not saying that that's happened, that's what she, but that's what she, that's her impression. I'm sure she was trying to like because all the time when she's out with me, we're doing something special, which is why she gets that.

Nicole: Well, and so she was confused, but I drove her to school this last week and made her tell her class why she was late. So I enforced the rule because she was late for school. So no, I'm not saying that you don't, but I'm just saying that it was like, you know.

John: I know perception-wise, I was trying to uphold these rules, and then it felt like it wasn't being reciprocated. We had a conversation about it, but in that moment, it just felt that way. I'm a very rules-oriented person, and I want to help our daughter learn things that will be beneficial to her when she gets older. It was hard, especially because I'm a step-parent. You have a different place in things. Luckily, she treats me like a parent most of the time, but there is a difference there. It was just complicated. The two mistakes I made were, first, I got upset about it. When I came home, we got into a bit of a tiff, which is not normal for us. We kind of went back and forth on it. The big mistake was that this pointed out a problem we had with our handling of discipline in the relationship. As a man, I should have been 100% responsible for the discipline and the rules in the relationship. Nicole should be focused on being the loving and nurturing one. I was not fully taking that responsibility.

Nicole: It's hard in your defense because I am around her mostly. I see a lot of the things that you don't necessarily see because I'm with her. It stresses you out, whereas I have no problem with it. That's my domain, as I should have been handling that. We should have had this discussion before then, that I'm the one who will handle the rules. You don't even worry about it. You just show her the love and nurturing side of it.

John: I'll do the discipline and the rule side. I think that is a really good way to operate, which is what we talked about after that discussion when we calmed down a little bit. That's what we really came to, that it makes the most sense because then Nicole's not going to have to worry. I'm not going to feel like I'm being controlled. We talked a bit about setting expectations and letting go of expectations. The second thing I messed up there was also that I discovered, which is good. This is why we're doing this podcast, as we help each other learn through these experiences. When I am hurt, because it did hurt me, I felt like I was being controlled and that my judgment wasn't being respected. Instead of expressing that it hurt my feelings, I overreacted and was upset about that. If I would have just come home and said, "Hey, when you texted me that, I made a judgment call there. It hurt my feelings," that would have made things a lot simpler. I found that's a pattern I have had, not saying that something has hurt my feelings.

Nicole: Right, and I do have issues with control and I do value rules. I had to set rules for myself a lot as a kid, so I value the structure of rules and what they can bring you. Sometimes I value it a little too much. I'm very strict on the rules and upholding them, and that's not always the best thing. I have a lot of anxiety and thoughts running a million miles a minute. A lot of times, I do feel like my opinion or my thought, I'm offering it because I thought a lot about it, so it's probably a really good idea. But I do offer that probably a little too much for sure. I know that made you feel like I didn't trust you. Working on that, obviously. I didn't handle our conversation the way that I normally would. I actually did it completely the wrong way by blowing up and saying things that I didn't mean, which weren't bad, by the way. They weren't really bad, but it wasn't good, and it was bad for us. I didn't mean those things, and we constantly talk to Sophia about not saying things when you're upset, and I did that. I had to own up to that because that isn't okay to do.

John: We're growing and learning, and we had a good conversation about letting go of expectations and things like that as well, which I think is just a good thing for everyone. Everyone needs to do that. Your life will be a lot less anxious. It is hard to flip the switch, but yeah, it was a beneficial conversation, but it was a lot.

Nicole: The big thing is, and I think the most important thing is, that we have these conversations even when we mess up because we do. We're not perfect; we're better than perfect, which is not the same. What makes it better than perfect is we're having the hard conversations. It was funny because after we had that conversation, I went to one of my workout classes. She was like, "Find the ease in the effort and find the effort in the ease." At the end, she was like, "Even the hard conversations that you have to have, find the ease in that." I think that's what we do. You have to put the effort in to have the hard conversations, but it brings you ease and more peace when you do that. You're learning new things, and you learn them the hard way, so they last longer, in my opinion. They really impact you.

John: That really resonated, and we don't end up having resentment afterwards. We totally resolve the thing because that's what we talked about in the last episode about how the thing that causes the nagging and the division is the resentment that builds up over time. That's why relationships get out of the honeymoon phase. Keep in the honeymoon phase as long as you get rid of the resentment. Well, you have to be honest, you have to have the hard conversations, and you have to be honest about your feelings.

John: Feelings, you have to be honest about the things you're going through and talk about it. Oh, and the last thing I'll say is that what we kind of derive from that conversation also was that in their relationship, I should be looking out 100% for Nicole's heart, and she should be looking out for mine. And we get into trouble when we're looking out for ourselves, right? Which happens because we're like, "Oh no, this person's not going to take care of me as good as I take care of myself." And as soon as we do that, that's where we spiral into all of the bad things. So, it's like if I'm just focused 100% as a man on my wife and making sure that I'm watching out for her heart and her interest, and I have trust that she's watching out for mine and vice versa, then you will be smooth sailing. Everything will be just great.

Nicole: So, right. I agree.

John: All right, well, that was good. Glad to get that one done. Ready for the hate mail. We'll see you guys next week.