John: This man said he's never been in love and he's never been heartbroken, so he doesn't even know what those feelings feel like because he's never felt it. And I don't care what book he reads, he has no idea how he's going to act in love and how he's going to act when his heart is broken. On your own, you can feel like you've worked on every single thing that you've ever needed to work on and you're good, and like life is great. But you do not know what is going to come out of the deepest, darkest depths of your soul and who you are when you get in a relationship. Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship. Here we are, yes, we're back.

Nicole: But guess what else is back? Love is Blind. Yeah, we haven't watched any of the episodes that came out today, but well, yeah. Where are we at right now? I mean, at this time, like, it's already people know, so because we're recording in the future. Yes, but in the past, but it will be the future.

John: It will be the future, yes. For the future, we're recording for the future. So, I mean, I guess we could speculate who we think is going to make it because we've talked a little bit about that. I guess this is what, season seven or eight, or I don't know.

Nicole: I don't know, actually. But I felt like there was only one that I thought was going to make it. Do you remember who you thought?

John: I don't remember. I never remember names.

Nicole: That's okay. I can try. So, there's Sarah and Ben, which, last we saw, there was something on TikTok. He, like, blocked that girl.

John: Yeah, and the issue with them is going to be that she asked him about Black Lives Matter and all kinds of stuff, and he was like, "Oh yeah, I'm willing." So, like, she's going to, that's going to become an issue.

Nicole: Well, I think the issue is he doesn't have a straightforward answer. He's very mysterious with all his answers, and then now there's this drama with some girl bringing up stuff, which could be just some girl stirring up drama, or it could be legitimate.

John: Yeah, so like, with him already being kind of more aloof in general, then you don't really know where he stands on anything, or if he was involved in this, or if he wasn't, or is there a side of him that she hasn't seen. I mean, they just met each other, really.

Nicole: So, yeah, it's a bad matchup, though, because, like, her thing, even, you know, obviously, there's something going on with what he's done, but even her handling of it is, she's very non-accepting of people but prides herself in acceptance, right? So, because if you don't agree 100% with what I'm saying is the moralistic right, then you're, you're not just, I'm not just don't want to have anything to do with you, you're trash. Like, like, I, you know, there's, but it's the same thing when she was handling this issue, right? Because the TikTok thing came up, and she's like, "Yeah, you know, it's basically like, okay, I don't even want to hear what you have to say about it. Like, I've already made my mind." And, you know, at least that's what I'm picking up.

John: Yeah, it's a very antagonistic type of viewpoint of, "Yeah, it's kind of like you're with me or against me," sort of thing.

Nicole: Exactly. So, um, then there's Dave and Lauren, which is the guy who's very stuck on she was with some guy before she went on the show.

John: Yeah, and he got her, like, she became infatuated with him because the first thing he said to her was, "You're old," or something like that.

Nicole: Yeah, he, like, "You can't," or "You must," "What's wrong with you?" Like, "Yeah, think she must not be good-looking because she's older," or whatever, some kind of.

John: Yeah, and so then she's been seeking his validation since then. So, yeah, I don't think they're going to make it at all. Like, I feel like he's looking for reasons, too, to try to look like the good person for ending things with her. Like, he's trying to hold on to something where he could be like, "See, like, she was with somebody else. That's why I don't want to be with her," when really, he hasn't really seemed interested in her.

Nicole: Yeah, but she did screw up with the way that she was with someone else before, right before going on to, like, find your soulmate and marry them, you know?

John: Yeah, I get that too. But like, we also talked about, like, I feel like it's very hard to find out who's genuine with this process anymore because I think it's more all about getting on TV for a lot of them. So, but if you're, like, if you're serious about it, then you should definitely, right, be, like, she, that way.

Nicole: So, um, then there's Devin and Virginia.

John: Oh yeah, yeah, you got good, you're good with the names.

Nicole: Yeah, I think, I don't think they're going to make it either. The prenup scared him.

John: And, see, she wants the prenup.

Nicole: She wants a prenup, yeah, because she, like, I mean, she put it all out there. Props for her for being transparent. Like, she wasn't trying to hide it. She's like, "I'm trying to be a millionaire, and I'm going to get a prenup." Like, she blatantly told him that, like, she wants to keep her stuff if something were to happen. But at the same time, that's not really getting all in to the marriage, which I get, in their perspective, they just met this person. Like, they don't really know the person. So, I get where that is more attractive.

John: Sure, but, but yeah, like, if you're not all in, then you shouldn't get married.

Nicole: Yeah, and he's not very masculine because he is letting her control that narrative and even explaining to his family why a prenup, I guess, today, it just makes sense, instead of actually having a, and so she's filling in the gap of leadership that.

John: Well, I feel like a lot of, especially like, people who make prenups and things like that, the lawyers that do all that, they're also perpetuating the narrative of, like, it's just what you do in 2025, like, protect yourself. But it's like, why are you getting married from someone or with someone you need to protect yourself from?

Nicole: Well, and it is good advice, right? So, like, if I were, if someone were to say, "Do you think it makes sense?" Like, if I know nothing about them, and they, and the guy's telling me, "Do you think it makes sense to get a prenup?" Like, I say, "Yeah, absolutely, 100%. You should definitely do it," uh, logically, right?

John: Right, but I'm 100% against it. Why? So, you know, and what do I mean? So, what I mean is that, based on the statistics, based on knowing what we know about relationships and marriages, and knowing what people don't know about them.

John: How likely they are to actually probably get a divorce, yeah, you should get a prenup, but mhm, you should probably just not get married. That's why we are against prenups because we're against not learning enough to figure out enough to be able to make a marriage successful. So, it's not that you shouldn't have that safety net; that's not really a good safety net.

Nicole: Yeah, from everything, if you're just a normal dude, you're just a normal chick, and you guys are getting married, yeah, you're probably going to get a divorce. Like, we know it statistically. It's a bad bet for you, man. Guys are like, "Oh, it's a bad bet. Marriage is a bad bet for a man." Yeah, you're right, it is. You're probably going to lose a lot of stuff, even if you have a prenup. You're still going to lose a lot of stuff, and you're probably not going to see your kids when you do get a divorce. You're probably going to have all kinds of problems. That's true. It's proven out statistically, but you can overcome those statistics if you become intelligent in a relationship and learn how to be a man and be masculine, and the woman learns, and you build that kind of... you know what I'm saying.

John: That's why I feel like it also makes it easier for people to not work through things. It's a very easy way out, especially if it's like, you take what you came in with, and I take what I came in with, and then if we make stuff, you know, we split it. That just makes it easier for people to not do the work and work through the hard things and kind of keeps everybody in a place where they're not going to really grow the most that they could and that they probably should. So, it just makes it too convenient for divorce, which then perpetuates the divorce rates, which then ties in all this stuff. Because what's the real issue? Is it that the divorce rate is high, or is it that men lose half their stuff? Because getting a prenup is just going to make it easier for people to get a divorce, so that's going to make the divorce rate even higher because now people are going to be like, "Oh well, no harm, no foul, really. I just picked the wrong person or whatever." But really, like, nobody's perfect.

Nicole: Well, yeah, and it's fixing the symptom, not the disease or the problem. So, it's a Band-Aid. So, if you're like, "Oh, I'm afraid I'm going to lose half my stuff," well, here you go, here's a Band-Aid. Now you won't lose half your stuff. But the question is, why are you afraid of that? Like, why do marriages fall apart? That's the... like, yeah, okay, so you lose half your stuff, but your heart is still ripped out, and you still don't get to see your kids or whatever it is. Like, whatever, you still went through all this trauma and have created this huge trauma in your life and other people's lives. But you didn't lose half your stuff, okay. Like, that's a Band-Aid. It doesn't solve the core problem, and it gives you a false sense of security because you're like, "Okay, well, now I have this prenup. Now I'm not going to lose half, so nothing bad can happen to me." So, yeah, I'm okay with going forward with this now. The worst thing is not going to be you losing half of your stuff. That's the least thing you should be concerned about. The worst thing is going to be all the other things that are going to happen to you in the process of having your lives joined and then ripped apart, and your children, and their families, and all of that stuff. That's the thing you should be concerned about, and the prenup doesn't, it doesn't in any way fix that or protect you against that. So, yeah, that's what there. Now I have my real reason why I'm against the prenup because people keep on asking me. There you go. I just keep on adding to it, but that's, I think, that one is my smoking gun.

John: Yeah, don't you can't argue with that.

Nicole: Yeah, that's true. Now we have Daniel, and I'm going to lose the names that I was remembering. Oh, Daniel and the girl, that Lauren, is it? Or I don't know. I don't think there's two. I don't know. Maybe though. I can't remember her name, but the girl that was like, "I swear you followed me on Instagram." Yeah, I think they might. They're the only ones that I think might make it. They have the biggest chance of making it because he's a good guy.

John: Yeah, he's a good guy, and then like her mom was so against it, and she brought her mom into all this, and I think that hopefully, she's realizing that he's the type of guy that she wants to be with, that loves her and cares about her, and he shows her that. Even when she acted crazy, he was very kind and understanding when she was all like, "I know you followed me," and he was like, "I really don't think so, you know."

Nicole: I think though, like even in our instances that we've had where I've been like crazy, and you've shown me that you still love me, I think that probably meant a lot to her. Yeah, and also is why they ended up going to Honduras and, you know, seeing this thing through. So, I think they're probably the strongest, and you can tell he's good by his parents because his parents also are very emotionally mature and calibrated.

John: Well, and I like too that, you know, he has a blind sister, and so he was like, he could appreciate the experiment for what it actually was. To be honest, he seems the most genuine to be on the show.

Nicole: Oh yeah, yeah. I think he understands the real... He has a chip on his shoulder of being short too, right? So, he like, but that also makes it the reason for him to really appreciate the idea because he feels like, again, he's a little bit under the delusion that the height is a bigger deal than what it actually is. But because of that, he really wants someone to appreciate him for who he is.

John: Right, right. And then is the last one, oh, that guy's name, Tesan guy, in the like the Joey and I think Molly, is that her name?

Nicole: Oh, Monica, Joey, and... it's like Friends.

John: Okay, yeah, yeah. See, I was remembering all the names, and then I lost them. But yeah, I think they go together really well. Ah, but I think that unless, you know, he talks with her sister because she's, you know, kind of poisoned the well a little bit, that they might run into some problems. But I think their personalities go together really well, besides that he keeps talking about how messy she is, and that bothers him. But I think he talked about the OCD thing, so I think that's more from that, that can be worked out.

Nicole: Yeah, like if they want that enough. But I think their personalities go together really well. Like, yeah, so they could make it, but really, those are the only two.

John: That I think are going to, but there were some important lessons though from the PO. Like from the one, I mean, the two things that stick out to me is, oh, the two girls, I don't remember their name now, the ones that were between, what's the other guy, Dave, Dave, or I don't know.

Nicole: Oh, uh, Lauren and Molly, yeah, with Dave, right.

John: Exactly, and the way that they handled the situation when it was him picking between them two. Yeah, and one of them was not very emotionally mature, and the other one was extremely emotionally mature, right? And how she handled that, I think that was like an obvious sign of cu.

Nicole: Sometimes because you can see emotional immaturity a lot in men. But sometimes it's not as clear as what it is in women because women are emotional, and that's good. You can be emotional, but emotional maturity does not mean not having emotions. Because both of those women had emotions, but one of those women handled it in a positive way where she was not attacking the other woman and the man to make his decision.

John: Yeah, so I think that, yeah. Well, and I think too that potentially he didn't say something like that to Molly because I think in the pods he asked her if he had, and she said no.

Nicole: Yeah, but I think she also wouldn't have been offended by it. But I think Lauren, deep down, was. And so that made her insecure, like you said. And so instead of handling it properly, she let those insecurities kind of take over, which I get, you know. That's very easy to do as a woman and being an overthinker and, you know, things like that. But I think that that contributed to how she was behaving, you know, because it was very like you could tell she was scared to lose him and threatened by Molly in that instance. But I think it was from a lot of the insecurities that he created within her.

John: Right, and like, let's be honest, like Dave and Mason told both of the girls that they were in between a lot of the same things, and they would sometimes be like, "You're my number one," and then the other girl would come in and be like, "I heard she's your number one," and they'd be like, "No, I didn't say that." And I'm like, "Yeah, come on, you know." At the reunion, they're going to be playing all this back at least. It's be like, "Yeah, she is your number two," like, right.

Nicole: Yeah, be like, "But you can be number one, maybe," you know. Like, at least, or don't say that until you want to pick somebody.

John: Exactly, like it's better to not say, but if you did say it, then you should just be honest about it because it just shows like an insecurity if you have to now make the other person feel like you can't handle the being upset with you. But yeah, but the champ of the entire all of Love is Blind is, what is that dude's name, the guy that didn't even make it onto the, but he could have if he wanted to. Like, that's the other thing, the guy, uh, that walked away from, oh, Alex, was it Alex, is his name?

Nicole: Yeah, Madison's other guy, yeah. That guy was the champ because the one who said you're avoidant, and he acted like a gentleman the whole time, didn't treat anyone poorly, even the guys. Gentlemen, he, um, he asked the right questions to the women, not about the stupid stuff, but like about attachment styles.

John: MH, like that, the one girl, what's her name, that had all the issues that I, that I was like, "Oh, she's going to have a lot of issues." Uh, I just said her name, Madison, that's yeah, yeah. I can never, even when you say the name, I still can't remember. But, but, but she, uh, you know, he already sensed that there was issues with her, even though she was playing it all correct because he was emotionally intelligent enough to be like, "Okay, well, there's got the way that she's been raised and what's happened in her family, there must be some stuff. Let's dig and see what happens." And then when it came down to the, how she handled, what was it, where, where the other guy, where she broke up with the other guy, and then, and then he was saying, "Okay, I can see your viewpoint and his viewpoint," and then she was getting all, you know, out of bent out of shape about that, it was clear. But then he just walked away from it well. He made the right decision by being like, "We're not in a place to get married," because, yeah, that's true. That's something that they would need more time to work on to see if they could both become secure because he said he was also anxious, right? And that's like the worst mixture, as anxious and avoidant, right.

Nicole: And so he definitely did the right thing because, and it seems like he took it seriously too because he could very easily TV, okay, yeah, let's get engaged, like get the trip and do all the, like, he could have done that easily just to, just to see if it'll work out, right. But he, so he had integrity. So yeah, so he was, it was smart for him to walk away, to see the red flags and actually, because I think 90% of the guys would have not walked away from that.

John: Yeah, I think you're right. They would have been supplicating her and then just, and he even asked like, he's like, "I don't, I don't want to have a relationship that has fighting in it."

Nicole: Right, yeah, exactly. And she tried to backpedal it and be like, "Well, it's just, that's normal-ish," kind of like she got normalize it. So yeah, so that's the 20-minute recap of Love is Blind. That's if you, our, now, now we can actually get into the actual true topic for today. So, uh, yeah, so I got, we got, I got an email, you read the email, we won't read the whole email, but essentially, this guy had emailed because he's been kind of following my advice and Bulldog mindset and our advice. He's been watching the podcast. He's young, he's in his 20s, like 27, or so.

Nicole: He hasn't been in any serious relationships, but he was like asking about like how to, like how, you know, he believes in traditional modern relationship, right, the term that we coined, you know, of the best kind of relationship to have. But he said, uh, he said, "This is a good topic to have," and he had, he asked the same thing for women, by the way, but we'll talk about that. We have an episode that already addressed this.

John: So he said, "What should men in their 20s do relationship-wise, assuming the goal is a modern traditional relationship? Stay single and focus on short-term relationships whilst building, um, get some relationship experience. I feel like many skills from short-term relationships transfer over, e.g., attraction dynamics, but what about skills only learned in long-term relationships?"

Nicole: That's good. Well, and if you want the episode for the younger women looking for a traditional relationship, it's episode 65.

John: Exactly, and that's what he, well, yeah, to his question for women was, "What should women in their 20s do relationship-wise, assuming goals modern traditional relationship? Date older, assuming older."

John: Equals more successful to stay single, prioritize ambition, potential, and a man. How do you screen for this? One critique of the modal relationship is there simply aren't enough financially stable men. This won't change. How can a woman bag one of these men? Maybe Nicole could share some girl game hacks.

Nicole: So maybe we could do... I mean, now that I read like the other parts of it, yeah, we'll see. But you know, for now, we'll tackle the male one.

John: Okay, well, you go ahead. You're a guy.

John: Okay, so, well, my advice, and we talked about this, is for guys to not get into a long-term relationship until they're at least in their 30s. And really, if I have my way, I would say kind of your mid-30s for most guys. But there are reasons for that, right? And the reason for it's like we said, right? And we've talked about this before. We've got a lot of hate about it, but a man has no business dating a woman unless he can financially support her and a child, right? Because at least at a serious dating level. So most men are not at that capacity in their 20s. They're not going to be there until their 30s. And most guys will say, "Oh, no one's going to... They're not... I'm not even going to get there." And that's because you're screwing around in your 20s, and maybe you should not have been in some serious relationships in your 20s. And if you were just on your purpose and focusing on building yourself as a man, getting to the gym, making money, doing the stuff that's going to establish yourself as a man, then by the time you got to your 30s, yeah, you would have enough money to support a woman and children, if that's what you desired. So that's where my advice comes from.

John: It also takes men longer to mature. And again, these things that are more valuable in a man, right? Because we've done the episode, and we talked about how youth and beauty is what's prized in a woman, right? But for a man, it's status, it's power, it's even just masculine attributes themselves. So, the feminine exists without anything. A woman is born, and she's feminine by default. There's nothing that has... What happens is the world actually defeminizes her and creates a bunch of stuff on top of that. But a woman born, you know, the purity of a woman is beautiful. The feminine is already there. A man is not born masculine. A man is a little boy, and most men continue to be little boys, and then they die. But a man can become masculine, and it requires battle and fighting demons and forging himself. So that's why it's different that a man should probably be in his 30s. He should be older because he has to develop that experience and that masculinity in order to be able to show up for a woman. Because if you're just a guy in his 20s and you haven't developed your masculinity and you get into a committed relationship with a woman, which I've done, most guys have, you're just going to get your ass run over. Like, she's just going to run you over because you're playing a game. You're racing against an Olympic athlete. Women understand socialization and have a greater capacity for social skills. You're just going to get dominated by her. You're not going to have the ability to... Because you really have to know who you are as a man before you tangle with a woman.

Nicole: That makes sense, that if he focuses on establishing himself, it's better for him in the long run, and he'll actually have more options. And I get that. And the guy mentioned in the email that I had said before that it is a red flag. And I do think it is still somewhat a red flag. Like, yeah, in the instance that it's a green flag that he'll establish his masculinity and he'll be more in his masculine and things like that, but it is still a red flag. And I would tell any woman that came to me and was like, "I've met a 35-year-old man who has never been in a relationship," I'd be like, "That is something to watch out for." It would be harmful for me to not say that. Because, and like with this guy who wrote in, I do think he has a lot of emotional intelligence. He's able to reflect on himself, and that's very important. And I think he can learn a lot without having the experience. However, I do think a lot of times you need the experience. Like, even though you might be a masculine man, you've never really let anybody... Like, even if you've led employees, yes, that is somewhat a way, but it's not... You're not leading your partner. You're not one person becoming one with another person. Like, you haven't considered someone else to the extent that you really need to in a relationship, and you can't even really fathom it until you get in a relationship. So, like, that is something that a woman is going to have to look out for. I'm not saying that he's destined to fail, but he is more likely to fail because he just does not even know what it means to go from being on your own for 27 years. Well, at that, you say they shouldn't until they're 30. So for 30 years, you've been focusing on yourself, right? And then now you're focusing on someone romantically. Like, that is a huge difference.

John: Yeah, you're absolutely right. I agree 100%. But I still think that you should... So here's what I'll say is that everything you're saying is correct, right? In the sense that it's just like if you get your first job, right? You got to get your first job at some point. But you know, when I look at your resume and you got no job experience, I'm like, it is a red flag, right? It's like, but hey, you're like, "No, no, give me a chance. I've worked on my skills. I'm a hard worker." It's like, okay, if you have other criteria backing it up, which this guy seems like he does have, right? And if he continues to get the knowledge from either watching this or reading books or whatever, talking to his friends that are in a relationship, then I do think it'd be fine, and he is qualified to take the risk. But if the man is not... Because to be honest, I knew and heard of plenty of men that at 30 who still aren't ready for a relationship, who still aren't masculine, who still aren't, you know, majority in that place, majority of men, yeah, right? So like, it is a big deal from a woman's perspective. But this is what it is. But before we scare away all the guys that are like, "Oh, yeah, see, Nicole's saying this," let me say this.

John: That if a woman is dating a guy that's never been in a serious relationship and she asks him about it, and he's like, "Yeah, I've never been in a serious relationship," but if he's intentional in it, there's a huge difference, right? Because if he says, "Yeah, I purposely have not been in a serious relationship because I wanted to establish myself. I wanted to make sure I took care of things, and I want to make sure that when I do get in a relationship with a woman, that I can take care of her. That it's important to me that if I have a child, I take care of that child, that she doesn't have to work." That's why I haven't been in a serious relationship. That, to me, there's still like, that's also very rare, but yeah, that is a difference. But that's what we're teaching, right? And that's what, like, so if you want a traditional modern, this is what you have to do. But if you just want to vibe, do whatever you want, I guess.

Nicole: Yeah, if you want to be in a traditional modern relationship, you know, modern traditional, what do we call it, traditional modern, traditional tradition, or traditional modern relationship, I think.

John: Whichever one, you can swap it, we'll still take credit for it. But, you know, if you want that as a man, right, then you should be intentional about this and be saying and be thinking, "Okay, I know that in my 30s or my 40s, that's when I'm going to actually settle down and be the man that, and I'm still going to have to learn, right?" You might still have to go through some committed relationships, right? But all I'm saying is that it's smarter as a man to shift that learning time from your 20s to your 30s, delay it by 10 years, right? Because you still got 30s and 40s, like you can still get into, you know, and get married and all that. So don't spend your 20s where it's probably not even going to be worth it. Like, spend the 20s building yourself, building your business, making money, building your career, establishing yourself as a man, the things that you can learn on your own, as long as that's what he's actually doing. When I believe the emailer is, but I believe a lot of men aren't, and then they're going through their 20s, they have no standards, they're just hooking up with people, they're living this bachelor lifestyle, and they haven't really worked on themselves.

Nicole: And see, and that's the thing about it too, is it's like you have to be intentional with this because, yeah, a woman will take a risk on a man if she knows, what you just said, if she knows and he has proven to her that he's been intentional and has been working on himself and not just lollygagging for his 20s and trying to hook up with anything that breathes. Because the reality is, though, that a lot of men might confuse what we're saying. They hear, "Oh, I'm not supposed to settle down till 30," so they're like, "Oo, okay, so party until 30 and then get it all together here's the hard at the last minute." Let me give you the bitter medicine, right? Because, well, and before I say that, like a guy that's intentional about this, it's a super green flag for a woman, right? It's like, as opposed to a red flag. But, here's the thing about it, here's the bitter medicine. Maybe I just didn't say this, I didn't vocalize it to you because I just thought it was understood, but the bitter pill of this is that you should really be not even really don't even concern yourself too much with women in your 20s, right? Okay, you want to casually date a little bit here to get a little bit of experience or whatever, you know, okay fine. But, and maybe you need a little bit of it to be able to learn some game, some skills, just to understand that dynamic, but that shouldn't be your focus. Your focus is on building your business, on going to the gym, on working on yourself, on reading books, and developing your masculinity. So that also means like having standards, and not, it means like go follow Jason Lamar on Instagram, the guy I interview. He's the guy that's like, "Don't be a [__]." You know, it's like, but he's like, he says some pretty harsh stuff, right? But he also says no alcohol, like no drug, like he's very much towing the line, like get on your purpose, get on your mission. So it's not, I didn't, I'm not giving you a decade to [__] around, like that's not the plan. But that needs to, if it's not, it will be turned into 'cause the whole point of this is like, then it's just stupid because now you're just like, you're just like instead of being a dumb 20-year-old who doesn't know anything about anything and it's not going to be a quality man, now you're just a dumb 30-year-old who doesn't know anything about it, and now it's worse. Unfortunately, that happens quite a bit, and you're more dumb because you're now even more of a, right, you're older and you don't know what have you been doing for the past 10 years? Yeah, so you should be applying yourself as a man. Like, you should avoid alcohol, there's no need for that. Like, it's just not, like I used to be like, "H whatever," and hey, if you, I'm not going to judge people, but I'm just saying, like, are you an idiot? Like, with the knowledge that you have, I'm not going to judge people, but are you an idiot? Well, I'm saying that, like, I'm not going to, like, think, I'm not going to, like, treat someone poorly because that's why I say, but, but are you an idiot, like really? Like, you all the stuff that you know about alcohol that you've heard us talk about, like, why would you do that? Like, it's just stupid. It doesn't make any sense. Mostly comes from a place of fitting in, and you know, which is stupid. Like, are you your man? Are you a masculine man, or you're someone else's [__], right? Like, that's what it comes down to, is because if it's to fit in, then that's what you're like, that's not developing your masculine. Well, that also makes a woman not trust you if you're just going to do stuff to fit in as well. So, yeah. But, I guess I will add, the good thing is that if a guy hasn't been in a relationship, I guess, is that he's trainable. And I mean that in the way of like, yeah, he hasn't had to do things in a relationship a certain way before, and things like that. And I don't mean like a woman is the boss of it, right, but she can help transform the relationship into also like what she wants, obviously within reason. Like, he's developed his masculine, you know, persona of a man, but she can also help him in learning about a relationship in a way to harbor the relation.

John: The type of relationship that she wants, she obviously has to be someone that is in her feminine and has learned a lot herself, right? But I think that if you do the work in your 20s as a man, you wouldn't settle for anything less than that.

Nicole: Exactly. And that's the thing. It's like, because the episode is about advice for a man in his 20s who wants to get a more traditional relationship. Part of that is also the selection of the woman. You should be looking for a woman that's 5 to 10 years younger than you. That's what you should be looking for as a man, right? In this case, you've done your work. So that might mean that if you're in your 30s, that's why I'm also pushing the date back further for men. That's why I'm saying mid-30s is where I'd like to see you. Like, 30 is okay, but if you're 30, that means you might be dating a woman from 20 to 25.

John: Hold on. Before, if you're going to date a woman that's 20 to 25 seriously, you better know what the fuck you're doing as a man. Like, you better be absolutely secure in your masculinity. That's why I'm saying if you're not, if you're 30 and you're there, okay fine, but maybe you're actually better off at 35, where you're dating a woman that's maybe 25 to 30. That's something that maybe you're going to be able to handle a lot better. And hey, when you get up to 40, now you're dating a woman that might be 30 to 35. There's time for you as a man to mature and develop. But if you want to go with the Wild Card, 20 to 25, you better be on your shit like you better be the man because you're not going to have a successful relationship unless you are. They could start at 30 because, like you were talking about in the car, your first one, your first one is probably not going to be the person that you marry. It's not saying that that's 100% how it goes all the time, but I don't see any problem with starting if you feel like you've developed yourself as a man and you're financially ready, starting at 30 because you probably won't find the girl you're going to marry for a few years anyway. So, and you're getting more experience, real-life experience, and then by the time you meet your wife, you don't have to be like, hey, you're my first relationship, let's get married.

Nicole: But it could be too. Like, it just depends. Like, you know, I can see both sides of it in the sense that, do you need to have failed experiments? Like, is that the best teacher? Is it, though? Instead, you can have a not failed experiment be the best teacher, right? So, for instance, what I'm talking about is that you can have a, before you even get into a committed relationship, right, you're still dating people, and that is sort of your trial period. So, if you're actually committing to one woman, you should have enough confidence and knowledge in that woman that you're, it's almost like you're committing to a woman with this viewpoint of this modern traditional relationship as a man. What you're saying is that I believe this woman will move on to marriage, like because in a year, right, that like our timelines that we talk about is like, yeah, you should be pretty much engaged in a year if they're the right person. You don't have to get engaged after a year if you're like, I don't think this is right, but as a man, and again, this is advice coming from a man to a man, it doesn't matter as much as what you're starting with for a woman, in the sense that you are the gardener. So, because guys are always, and this is the problem that a lot of guys have, is they're like, okay, I just need to find a better woman. This is, I got obviously a broken woman, right? And that's why she acts like a bitch or she's naggy or whatever. It's like, okay, perhaps that's the case, but it's probably like, where can I see your, how often are you watering this? Like, what fertilizer are you putting in there? It's like, what are you doing? Let's look at that first and see because most women are not broken women. Like I said at the beginning of this episode, the feminine is pure by itself. It doesn't need to be cured; it doesn't need to be developed. It's there. It exists in its full essence from the start. To uncover it, right, when a woman is born, she's born with that. A man has to build his masculinity. And so, most women are not broken. I'm not saying that there aren't any; there certainly are some that the world has broken them or whatever, but what I'm saying is that a man, if he knows and understands masculinity and is secure in himself, he can be the gardener, and he can still learn in that relationship as he's doing it, but he can be successful in shaping that relationship and leading it and learning as he's going if he's already done all this work in his 20s to establish himself. Like, he's not going to, from the get-go, he gets into his first relationship, he's dating a woman, is he going to make a ton of mistakes? Yes, of course. So, he's not going to, you can't substitute that. You're going to have to gain that experience, but it doesn't mean that he has to have a failed relationship and then move on to another failed relationship and then have a good one. He can just learn in that relationship.

John: I don't know if I 100% agree with that because this man said he's never been in love and he's never been heartbroken, right? So, he doesn't even know what those feelings feel like, right? And that is also something that is hard to be experiencing with someone for the first time at an older age, and he doesn't know how he's going to react, really, because he's never felt it. And I don't care what book he reads. I don't care what video he watches. He has no idea how he's going to act in love and how he's going to act when his heart is broken. And the thing is, that it could be fine, yeah, and if he's done a lot of work, sure, but also the problem I have is a problem that we talked about before too, is that on your own, you can feel like you've worked on every single thing that you've ever needed to work on, and you're good, and life is great, and you're like so wise and smart, and you know all this stuff. And this guy, he is very smart, based on his email, but you do not know what is going to come out.

John: Of the deepest darkest depths of your soul and who you are when you get in a relationship, but let me ask you this question. What's the purpose of a relationship?

Nicole: I feel like it's experiencing life with someone that you care the most about.

John: I think it's that, but the answer I was looking for is to grow. It's like to learn those things that you're talking about, right? Because you cannot fully develop in life unless you're in a relationship. You think you have developed yourself, but you'll learn it. So, my point is that's the reason for the relationship. It's not that you're already hatched and ready to go. You're coming to this relationship, and maybe he doesn't have the experience, but that's the reason for getting in the relationship, to develop and grow yourself as you're with this person. If you've done a lot of the groundwork and you know what you're doing, you know why you're there. Guys that are listening to us should understand that the purpose of a relationship is the growth that they're going to see together. So, if that's your purpose, then when you approach it, even if you might not know these things, you don't have this experience, you see these as learning opportunities, correction opportunities where you can learn things and start to become the man that you are only a seed of at this point, and develop into that man. And the woman is going to help you grow. So, you're selecting a woman to help you grow. So, that selection should be one that, with this in mind, I don't think you have to go through two or three. I think you can do that with one if you have this mindset, the right one.

Nicole: Well, there is no right one. That's what I'm saying. For a man, it's... For a woman, she better pick the right one. If we're giving this advice to a woman, women should not listen to anything we're saying because it does not apply to you at all. Because a woman, you better pick the right guy. You're not going to shape the guy. You better pick the right guy. There are things you can do to make your relationship and marriage better, for sure. But as a man, it doesn't matter as much the woman that you pick because you will shape her more than any other force in her life. And that's true. And you will lead the relationship. So, I'm not saying that the woman that you pick shouldn't be special, but all women are special. The feminine is special in its attribute. So, it's not as critical. It's critical that the man understand what he's undertaking and realizing that he is not to blame her; it's his responsibility.

Nicole: Yeah, and I mean, I get that. And I'm not saying that it's impossible. Like, I think with the guy who emailed us, I think he could, if he met the right person and he continued to try to learn the things that he's trying to learn, it would work out. However, I'm giving the female perspective. I'm not trying to be contrarian, but I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of... This happened to me when I was single. And the thing is, it would be hard to trust him, for sure. It would be hard to fully trust him, which is what a man needs because he doesn't have the experience. And if I have the experience and then I'm trying to teach him, but remember, you're 10 years younger than him. And I've had how many heartbreaks and all these things that he's never even experienced. And it is different, even for men and women. So, what I'm just trying to say is that as a woman, knowing that he didn't have that experience, I'm not saying that it would keep me from being in that relationship as a woman, but also until he proved that I could trust him without having that actual experience, it would be hard to trust him fully.

John: Here's the thing I would say about that because I get what you're saying. But as I'm thinking, as you're saying this, what I'm thinking about is how many people, if you look at their past relationships and the baggage that they have, is it a positive thing or a net negative thing, right? So, I would say mostly it's a net negative. If you're a kind of person that can go into a relationship and you don't come out with any baggage but you come out with just a more enlightened soul, you would have succeeded in the relationship. Or you didn't need it, you know? So, what I'm saying is that most people, the more they're in relationships and break those things off, the more damage that is done to them. It can be repaired, but it would be better to not come in with that damage.

Nicole: I agree, but the thing is that you're hard-pressed to find a woman that doesn't have any damage. Like a man, sure, you can come across men that have never been in a relationship, but women are going to have baggage. I mean, we have a 13-year-old that if you ask her, her crush now would be giving her baggage, exactly. So, that is also the thing. Like, sure, yeah, that's great for him. I wish everybody could go into their ideal relationship with no baggage. That's great, and like, yeah, I don't want him to suffer just to suffer either and get some baggage. But at the same time, I feel like there is a difference between learned experience or being in the moment than just reading about it and things like that. And I'm not saying you can't get very, very similar knowledge. You do need the learning experience. You're absolutely right. But that is just where, like, sure, I get what you're saying. Like, yeah, I could think back to my first relationship, and I didn't have any baggage, and that's a great feeling. I understand that. But the problem is, though, I mean, as long as he knows that probably every woman he dates is going to have baggage and he knows how to handle that, even though he's never had his heartbroken, he never really been in love. Also, the issue I have too with him never being in love is that if you asked 16-year-old me, I was in love, right? Exactly. No, that's... But if you like comparing that or all of the things until now, I'm not saying that wasn't love, but it was not the love that I feel like you need to get married. And so he has no baseline to go off of at all.

John: So, but maybe men don't need that sort of love, and women do.

Nicole: Well, I mean, the first thing is like you said, it is right. And I'm glad you're bringing up all these points because these are super important things that you're saying.

John: That a woman is going to come into a relationship with baggage, even a young woman, because even our daughter, her crushes are baggage to her. It shouldn't be, but it is. So, it's better that the man has a little of his own baggage because he needs to be dealing with it. He's going to have to because that is part of what it is to be a man, to deal with the woman's emotional baggage. A lot of guys today are like, "Let's go, passport bro. I don't want to deal with Western women's emotional baggage." They've got baggage; they're just not showing you the baggage. But it's different baggage. This is what you're supposed to do. You have to help a woman heal through these things. If there were more good men and all men were listening to what we're saying, then she wouldn't have this baggage. The baggage was caused by men; it wasn't caused by her being defective.

Nicole: And again, you're not responsible for those men, that is true, but you're responsible for yourself and for being a man that takes responsibility for a woman.

John: Right. And so, I think a man having less baggage is good. But to speak to what you're saying about being in love, that's why a man is going to need to have some experience. Here's the thing: men do fall in love, or they become obsessed with a woman. They get oneitis over a girl that they have an infatuation with. It's not really love. Look, if you're a guy in your 20s and you're like, "Oh, I'm never even going to talk to a woman because John said don't," you're going to be a total dork, an anxiety-ridden freak of nature. I don't want you to be that either. I'm not saying don't go and face your fears. You don't have to be a pickup artist, but you do need to, at least when you see a woman, go and talk to her. Those are the skills you'll develop, and that's going to prevent you from falling into fake love. Because if you're already casually dating a few women, if you've built your confidence, you could go to a nightclub or a bar and pick up a girl. Again, you shouldn't be the focus of your life in your 20s, but if you can do those things, that's going to save you from making the mistake of the first woman that shows interest in you, then you're like, "I love you, and I'm going to marry you." That's also not a good plan.

Nicole: I'm also concerned because this guy has said that he's dated and picked up women casually. He said the longest was a month, and that's not very long. But him mentioning that he's never been in love, I guess maybe we don't have enough information from him. I would be curious because the thing is, that's what I'm asking. Is the type of love that you and I have something that a man wants? Because I think plenty of men, just like women do the same sometimes, is that they find somebody that they do believe they do love, but it's not in the way that you and I love each other. They do have love for that person; they care about that person, but they've never experienced the level that you and I have. So, they don't even know that that's at a lower level.

John: Right. But I'll tell you where it starts. It starts with the love of all women and the love of the feminine in the man. That's what actually starts that love that we have. I'm not going to say that it's not special, but what started that spark of that kind of love was that I was coming into it with that viewpoint, and you didn't have resentment towards women. I saw the beauty in all women, but I saw a special beauty in you. That's the key to having that. So, a man has to learn to see the beauty in the feminine in every woman, to see the uniqueness and beauty in each and every woman. If he can't do that, if he's still harboring hatred, then he's not going to have that true love. It takes time. A man has to learn some things, develop himself to get to that point.

Nicole: So, it can be successful, but it has to be so intentional. We're not saying to mess around and whatever, and you don't have to worry about things until you're in your 30s. If you really want a modern traditional relationship, if what we're saying on this podcast makes sense to you, if that's the kind of relationship and love that you actually do want, then as a man, this is the formula for doing it. It's going to take so much work.

John: And I've told guys, I was talking to John who was on the podcast, and when we were going on our hike, I was like, "Dude, I can teach a guy how to pick up a girl in a night. I can teach him how to get laid. That skill set, I can teach him enough in one night. It's not impressive. But to be a man in a relationship with a woman, to truly be that, it could take a lifetime to learn." That's why that's the skill to develop. If you're intentional about this as a man and you're thinking about, "I want to have this kind of life, I want to have this kind of wife, I want to have this kind of relationship," then yeah, in your 20s, you're sacrificing, you're building for this woman that you know is going to be there later. It's like that sacrifice you're making in your 20s when you're not drinking.

John: Alcohol, when you're working on your business, going to the gym, this is all stuff that you're building up for your future partner, wife, and so that's why you're doing it. Believe me, if you come into a date with a woman, and it's the first woman that you're seriously entertaining dating in your 30s, you're probably not going to get the first date. But if it's like, "I've been building this for you," then you'll take it more seriously. It's not going to be a red flag.

Nicole: She's not going to be like, "Oh, this guy's never dated before." She's going to be like, "Oh my God." She's going to message all her friends and be like, "Do you know what this guy said to me? Do you know what this guy is doing?" That's true, but I think he needs all the other stuff too.

John: Yeah, exactly. It's more than just the words; it's definitely the actions. But I guess I want to end it on one last question for you, and I want you to give me a full, in-depth answer, okay? Because you got married really young.

Nicole: Yeah, yeah.

John: And do you genuinely feel like you could have learned everything that you've learned because I do think from the outside, you learned a lot from that relationship?

Nicole: So again, yeah, it's hard for me to sit here and be like, it's not a little bit scary that a guy hasn't been in a relationship at all. Yes, what you said, if some guy showed up and was like, "I built all this for you," that is swoon-worthy. It will go viral on the internet. Women will be like, "I want this love to kidnap me," or whatever they're saying on the internet now. But genuinely, do you feel like you could have learned all of that if you were single for that time instead of getting married young?

John: I'll tell you this, so a couple of things. One, my path is not your path, right? And my path, my burden, whatever it is, my thing is to be a teacher. I'm not saying this in an arrogant way. It's like I have to go through the pits that people don't want to go through so that the knowledge could be gained in other ways. Without the experience, the experience couldn't be. And that's how I relate. Because I have to go through the thing in order to be able to talk, not to be able to teach, but to be able to talk about it in a way to be able to empathize, to say, "I know how it feels because I did it. I did the things the wrong way," you know? Or whatever, like, I went through the pits, the pain. So, my path is not your path. But also, where I learned a lot of the things was actually when I was outside of the path, when I was doing things that I wasn't supposed to be doing. And in dating women, because at that point, I started to see the beauty of the feminine. I started to appreciate a woman for, and it can sound bad, but I don't mean it to sound bad, but for only one night because that's all that I was going to get. And so that forced me in a way to accelerate this process of development, of understanding, of being able to see the beauty. But you developed yourself as a man in the other relationship. So, in ways, I forged myself. But some of the circumstances that caused that evolution were not necessary for every man to go through those types of things. You can self-initiate. If I had a teacher, a mentor, like I'm trying to be, I could have gone through that development without the experience. Because I had to find my way through being pummeled, and that is what you know. It's like you don't have to do that if you have, like, I didn't know about modern traditional. I didn't have any of this knowledge or wisdom that we're sharing, and I didn't have, I stumbled upon resources eventually and books and stuff. I didn't have anyone who was a role model or anyone that could teach me these things. So, it's like you don't have to go through that gauntlet. It's just hard because I again have learned a lot of things from experience, and a lot of things that have stuck with me or have helped me learn even more have been experiences. And so, I think that's what trips me up the most. And as a woman, like I said, we have baggage early on. So, as long as a man, and I think with your help, men can get there without having to experience it, but the majority can't. So, unless they're really committed to it, and this guy in the email does seem like that. And if coming to you, I know you will put them through other things that will get them ready, almost like a man boot camp for a relationship. You're the only man that I think can really teach relationships in the way that they need to be taught and prepare a man the way that he needs to be prepared for a modern traditional relationship.

John: Yeah, so I do believe that, and I do believe you. It's just, it's hard for me to discredit the experience part of it when it's taught you so much, it's taught me so much, it teaches people a lot. But I agree that it's not 100% necessary. Not everyone's called to do what I do. You know, so it's good enough to be the man for your woman. You don't have to be the man that helps other men be the man for their woman. That's my path. Again, I'm not trying to put myself as high. It's not about me; it's about that's why my path was necessary. It's because if that's not what you're going to do, then that's not a path that's necessary for you. But I just think that it, I guess I just need men to realize, and you've spelled it out really well too, though, what it actually takes to be able to learn these things without experiencing it. Because it's not going to be easy, but you're going to have to experience it. But I'm saying you can avoid a lot of baggage, like you said, by not throwing yourself in there when you're not ready. And then you're going to experience it because, I mean, maybe that's worth spending just a tiny bit to talk about, is that have no illusion as a man, if you wait through your 20s and you read all the books that I told you to read and you do all the stuff, and then in your 30s, you start to seriously date a woman for the first time, that you get into an argument with her, and she is emotional, and you're like, "I need to validate her emotions," you're not going to.

John: You're just going to be like you're going to cry or you're going to yell or whatever. You're not going to do it like you're more prepared because at least you have it in your mind, but you're still not going to do it. It's just like, you know, if someone hasn't used it in real life, it's just like, okay, when you see a cougar on the trail, make yourself big and go "ah," and then, you know, cats will run away. You're going to freeze. You're going to be like, "Oh shit," right? That's what's going to happen. But if you continually face the cougar, then you're going to... But what I'm saying is that you don't have any kind of illusion that somehow you're going to be prepared for this because you're not going to be prepared for it. You can't be prepared for it. But you can know. It's just like my friend, Micah, right? His son, Jonah, is entering the Navy Seals program. When we talked to Jonah, Jonah's like, "Oh yeah, yeah, this first week is going to be like this, and then most of the people get weeded out here, then the hardest thing is the boat crew. We're going to do the boat crew thing, and then, you know, they switch up the teams because a lot of people drop." He's got it all locked down. He knows exactly what, and it's good because he's knowledgeable, but he's not prepared because you can't be prepared. When he's there, it's going to be... It doesn't matter how much knowledge he has about that whole thing. I mean, I know he's going to succeed because of who he is, but you don't know until you're actually in it for sure. And that's how it's going to be. But at least now you have the framework to work with. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that you're going to just excel. You're going to suck at this job first, yeah, and then you're going to get better.

Nicole: Well, and I guess too that something that men like this can do is to also be honest and vulnerable about this. Like, yeah, tell, you know, be like, "Hey, I've been working on myself, you know, and I've established myself this way, but this is the first time for me, and so I'm not going to get it right 100%, but we're going to work on it together." I think that is, I guess, the missing part that I feel like a lot of women will need.

John: Yeah, yeah. Is that like owning up to that, not trying to act like you know they got it all figured out because, like you said, when shit actually hits the fan, even people who have been in the experiences can sometimes lose the knowledge.

Nicole: Well, look, hey, you're my second long-term relationship ever. I only have one other one, technically.

John: Yeah, yeah. I mean, because those weren't like real relationships. Like, we, you know, yeah, like seeing someone for, you know, some, you know, but like really, like actual relationship relationship. So that's true.

Nicole: Yeah, so that's a little bit different when your first one was as long as it was.

John: Yeah, but because that also establishes that you have experience in relationships because it was very long, you know what I mean? But I get where you're saying.

Nicole: Yeah, but, you know what I'm saying. So, and I'm not saying he needs like, okay, when you get to like three official relationships, you'll know. But yeah, just be... Don't, like, if you're listening to what we're saying, if you understand that you're the gardener, if you get all these things, and yeah, you're also... Because it's like, you know, because what ends up happening in the dissolution of most relationships is the man throws the woman out in some way or other. The woman doesn't give up on the man usually. He tosses her but then tries to say, "I'm loyal though. I didn't give up on you." He feels that she's broken, he tosses her. That's usually what happens. And it's, and many times it looks like it's the opposite because he's given, just throwing this nugget out at the last, yeah, to rile everybody up.

John: All right, I guess we got our segment. We got into it, disagreement, did we, did on, I forget what day it was, Saturday or Sunday.

Nicole: Yeah, it was my fault because I was, uh, but it's, it wasn't all your fault. I did not make you feel supported in the way that you needed, and I messed up by doing that. But I didn't communicate it properly, and so, and then I got into just not handling things the right way, and, you know, I mean, it wasn't like we're screaming at each other and calling each other names because we never ever do that. Still, but it just, the way I was not coming from a place of love, you know, of unconditional love.

John: And I did not make you feel like I cared about your opinion and the things that you were expressing. And so, I can see where that hurt you. And so, instead of things going well, it went the wrong way because you were hurt, and then I felt like you were, you know, upset with me. And so then it was just a lot of defensive sort of behavior, like we've talked about in the past.

Nicole: But, yeah, but we're all, you know, we can still fall into it no matter how sometimes, you know, when you think you need a little humbling experience.

John: But it was good too, also, that I think we resolve things quickly. We've gotten good at that. It was still pretty long. It was like a few hours long, but it's not eight hours long. But there wasn't like an 8-hour discussion afterward and still not really resolved type of thing.

Nicole: So, yeah, so, but, um, but yeah, but, you know, learning experience for me. And, like I said, I take responsibility for because I did not... I was not on my game. I was so on my game the rest of the week of like doing all of these things, like just showing up how I wanted to show up, you know. And then you used it all on everybody else.

John: Well, even for, you know, that week, Toto and taking care of Sophia and like taking her to the thing and handling all the things and even the crazy vet bill, and I'm just like, yeah, that's what we have to do. We have to pay, you know. I didn't, you know, and then, but, um, but, but it needed, I needed to be humbled a little bit there. So, I'm thankful for it.

Nicole: Yeah, we're always getting better.

John: All right, well, that's it for this episode then. Make sure you email us at betterthanperfectpodcast@gmail.com if you've got a question, and we'll hash it out like we did.

Nicole: Yeah, we'll hash it out. We'll try to answer it. Don't forget to leave a review. I don't know, did you check?

John: Huh, John left one.

John: After he was on the podcast, that was the last thing that I saw.

Nicole: Yeah, no, that was good. Like, you know, of course, you got to read it.

John: Oh, yeah, that's true. You're right because, see—

Nicole: I said anyone could go and text my mom, be like, "Leave us a review." She's texting everybody we know.

John: Yeah, we should actually. But, uh, now I'm not getting a connection. On the next episode, you'll—

Nicole: In the next episode, we'll read the review. Yeah, I'm sure it's great. But yeah, it could be yours, so leave us one.

John: All right, we'll see you next week.