John: We share a location, and the only time I will look at your location is if you're on a hike and it's been like an hour longer than I thought you would have been. It's not like a constant monitoring thing; it's literally for knowing where your partner is.

Nicole: Beyond the perfect, we discover through our flaws. We complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault we fall. Welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

John: That's right, and we're back with... I don't know what's going on. P Diddy's going to jail, but should we even say that? 'Cause what if he gets out and he comes and gets us for saying...

Nicole: I don't think he'll be getting out any time soon from what I've heard. I didn't even really look into it, but I don't know the full thing either. But I watched a video from a lawyer guy, I guess, who was reading the paper well, and he was like, the federal government's going after him, and most of the time, that means you're in big, big, big trouble.

John: Yeah, by the time that they take you to jail, so I think you're right that he's not getting out anytime soon. There's not a lot of federal laws to break, but when you break them, you're in trouble.

Nicole: He was kind of going over the paper that has his charges and stuff like that, but yeah, I don't know the full...

John: Yeah, it's so weird though because it's like, you know, well, I mean, guys will say whatever they're going to say about, but when I see stuff like that, you know, P Diddy, what's his name with the Jell-O pudding pops and the...

Nicole: Oh, Bill Cosby. I think of Jello jigglers. I mean, there's some other ones too. I mean, Bill Cosby is not the best example, but of rich, famous guys, right, that are celebrities that drug women. Wait, let me tell you one thing though that the guy said they found.

John: Yeah?

Nicole: A thousand bottles of baby oil. Yeah, that and like lube or something. A thousand bottles.

John: He likes to be slick, but and then people were talking about how, I guess, Cat Williams, the comedian, like years ago, was like, if P Diddy asks you to party, just say no or something. That 'cause I guess like you will be covered in baby oil or something if that happens. But yeah, I don't know all of the details with the P Diddy stuff, but yeah.

Nicole: But these guys, right, like celebrities making... It's like, yeah, just because you are like, you can be attractive and have money and be a celebrity and not have game, you know what I'm saying? So, I mean, obviously, if you have to drug a woman in order to get her to sleep with you, then, you know, yeah, it's helpful to have money and be a celebrity and stuff like that and be attractive, but you also still have to have some kind of game, you know?

John: Here's what I think actually is P Diddy's problem more so. 'Cause I think he's not the best example for what you're talking about, but you do make a point. I think P Diddy is such a bad person that he can't get women because women know his reputation or they have heard what's happened to women that have been with him, and so, but then he drugs them. The only way that they'll go with him.

Nicole: But that's weird because, like, if he's known for doing that, and then it's like, yeah, but I get what you're saying, but also, what happened with Puff Daddy? Like now, it's well, they put all of his names on the paper, that lawyer guy was talking about. He's like, he has all the names that he goes by. Guess what the last one was?

John: What's the last one?

Nicole: Love. Oh, just love. Like L-U-V, or no, L-U-V.

John: Well, I don't know. He didn't spell it, but he was naming all of the like P Diddy, Puffy, Combs, Sean Combs, or whatever, like all the names, and then the end was love. I was like, I didn't even know he went by that, but obviously, that's not a good nickname for him. But like I said, it happens a lot of times where, you know, where guys are like that, and then they think that they would be able to just get laid all the time, whoever they want, but well, that's why they have Millionaire Matchmakers, right?

Nicole: I think that's a better example because these guys are successful, they have money, and these guys in the comments like to be like, oh well, if you're successful and you have money, that's all that matters. But no, there are plenty of people who make a lot of money who don't get relationships like they want. You could be successful, make a lot of money, be a celebrity, attractive, and still, you still need some amount of game, you know what I'm saying? Like you still have to know what you're...

John: Just like I forget who was telling me that he was working at some club, nightclub in Miami, and basketball guys would come in there, and they would get fleeced by, uh, by table whores. For you know, I was going to try to put a different name around, but that's what they are. But you know, and they know it, and they don't care, but that's what they do. So, but he was saying that they, he, you know, basketball professional basketball players, they're getting fleeced, right? These are tall, athletic guys, can but they, some of them, I'm not saying all of them, but some of them don't know how to talk, and so they're, you know, they pay for women at the nightclub instead of just going and talking to women. So maybe they also want the easy way out, uh, but yeah.

Nicole: But you don't have to get fleeced in order to, you know what I'm saying? I don't even know what that means, like to be fleeced.

John: Yeah, like to be taken for your money.

Nicole: Okay, right. It's like where they're like, okay, it seems like they're allowing it though. Like I feel like if you are a professional athlete or a celebrity or even a successful person, yeah, I would definitely automatically be like, okay, I need to vet people harder because they might use me for money, especially like in a nightclub. Like I wouldn't just be like, oh, these girls like me, they're coming over here. I'd be like, they probably just want the nice things.

John: Yeah, but see, that's 'cause you, that's you, like you're thinking like you. But remember, a lot of people that become celebrities, whether that through professional athletics or through movie stars, a lot of them are sort of just came into this, you know what I'm saying? Like they just suddenly became wealthy and famous and rich, and so it's, you know, there's a difference between like intelligently building your way up to that level and you're not going to get taken advantage of, but when wealth comes quickly, it disappears quickly. Think about how many wealthy people, how many celebrities have done stupid things, right? Just that no common sense person would do, right? Even just example with what we were just talking about, right? It.

John: It's like, especially drugging women, why would you even do that if you're a celebrity? You have so much to lose. If you're just a normal guy and you're drugging women, okay, you have a lot to lose. But you have a lot more to lose when you're a celebrity. You're more likely to get caught.

Nicole: I'm not saying it's right by any means whatsoever, but Diddy did all this stuff because he thought he would never get caught. He knew enough people, and a lot of celebrities do that. The book that Sophia and I are reading, "The Like Switch," the guy talked about how celebrities can get away with more stuff. He worked for the FBI. He said that they do typically get away with more stuff. It's because they're attractive, but temporarily.

John: Well, no, look, you're more likely to get caught if you're a celebrity. I agree that you have more to lose because you have more. But I'm saying that celebrities get away with a lot of stuff temporarily. Everything you do in the dark comes to light, no matter who you are, but especially as a celebrity because people have more leverage on you.

Nicole: Right, like if you do something, someone can say they can extort you. You can't extort just a normal Joe because what are you going to get from him? Nothing. But that's why people wait. They wait until the opportune time to use it. Celebrities do stupid things, and both situations have a lot to lose because you're essentially losing your life by going to jail by doing stuff like that.

John: Yeah, you lose. You have so much more to lose. What I'm saying is that you have more that you acquired, and you have a reputation that matters. Joe Mo's reputation doesn't really matter that much. It might cost him his job, but Diddy's reputation doesn't matter anymore, obviously.

Nicole: No, I think he was going down for a while anyway. Like you said, it's only a matter of time for all the shady stuff you do catches up with you.

John: Yeah, it's not good either way. But the moral of the story is, there's no way around it for guys. You have to learn game, you have to learn social interaction with women.

Nicole: If you don't know how to do that, read "The Like Switch." Learn how to tilt your head and raise your eyebrows. But it is kind of common sense to people that already know how to make friends and do things like that. But if you are a guy who's awkward and doesn't know how to talk to people and is uncomfortable in social interactions, then you should read the book. It helps you understand how to be more comfortable and be more likable. Sophia actually said he kind of seems manipulative. And the thing is, yeah, he is because he was using a lot of these things as an FBI agent. But if you're genuinely trying to make friends or find a relationship, then you're doing these out of a place of genuine interest and wanting a connection. So intention is the key.

John: Yeah, persuasion is the root skill. It's either manipulative or leadership. It just depends on whether it's for your benefit and their detriment or for their benefit.

Nicole: Sophia also mentioned that he's kind of flirty. It doesn't have to be a monotone voice. He's flirty because he kind of low-key flirts with people. Especially the women. He was talking about how he goes up to the flight attendant desks and what he says. If a man went up to a woman and said that, it would be flirty. It would be a good way for him to initiate the conversation.

John: Yeah, it's interesting to read, and it's definitely written from a male perspective to help other men talk to women honestly. So it's definitely good for men to read if they need help talking to people or game or something like that.

Nicole: Yeah, so there you go. Another book, "The Like Switch" by Jack Schafer.

John: Have you read that one?

Nicole: Oh, okay. Thank you, Rodrigo. So, we get into the topic, freedom in relationships. What I mean by this is, are relationships restrictive to one's individual freedoms? Should they be? What amount of freedom is appropriate in relationships? It's a pretty broad topic.

John: Oh gosh, I don't know. Well, I mean, again, to give another book reference, have we talked about "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World" on this podcast?

Nicole: I don't know if we did. In that book, he talks about relationships. His initial view on relationships was that there should be no restrictions on any person at all. Zero. So you're in a relationship with someone, they can do whatever they want, they can sleep with whoever they want to sleep with. It's none of your business. It's not your concern. You're free as well. He said that if people love each other, then they should not limit the person that they love.

John: From a purely rational perspective, it makes sense, right? He says, "Okay, yeah, jealousy and envy and stuff like that, those are defects within yourself. Those are not, you know, that has nothing to do with the fact that you're allowing someone to be free. You should allow someone to be free without being envious or jealous, right?" And then, you know, I saw some comments from one of my videos where the guy is like, "Oh, where I was talking about you, that you have to do this before you get married as a man, right? Have the captain of the ship talk." And then I talked about the six rules of relationship, and one of them was turning on the locations. And the guy was like, "Oh, you don't need to know every time your girlfriend goes out for ice cream after work, right? You don't need to know everything about a person's personal life." Which I replied, "I want to know what kind of flavor of ice cream she's eating and whether she got a cone or a cup." Which I replied, "You should know if I got a cone or a cup if you know me, right?" But, you know, we'll break that down a little bit. And then also, the final thing that kind of brought it all together is like, we talked about a little bit, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I want to say Housewives because of that Jersey Housewives vibe, yeah. But, you know, there's a thing where they go to Vegas, and they're going to a Chippendale thing, right? And it's like, again, the same thing. Like, they try to use manipulation tactics on their husbands by being like, "Oh yeah, it's unattractive when a man is controlling or that he would restrict a woman from just having some fun or good innocent fun or whatever, you know?" So anyway, that kind of sets the stage.

Nicole: Well, yeah. I mean, what do you... I mean, give you a jumping-off point since I talk so much here. So you want me to pick? I mean, yeah. I also read How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World, and yeah, the relationship, and then like the parenting advice that he gives initially is just... yeah. No, but like you said, the concept makes sense, right? The concept of your partner should be free to do whatever they want so that when they choose you, it means that they're choosing you. And I think he even said that in some sort of way in the book, where it's like, that way when your partner comes home to you or, you know, stays with you, that's showing that that is their true choice because they have this freedom, right? Which, like you said, logically, that makes sense. However, the issue I have with that is then why even make a commitment? Why even get married? Because he was married, right? And he still was like living in this freedom, right? Like, if that's genuinely how you want to live, right? I don't see why you would make a commitment of marriage or even like a commitment of an exclusive relationship because he does talk about where, well, if my wife goes and sleeps with someone else, that's not my business. If I do it, that's not her business. But the thing is, that is your partner's business if you're in a committed relationship, if you're in an exclusive relationship. Like, especially, that is... if you're in an intimate relationship with somebody else, that also will affect your partner's health, right? By being with other people. Like, it's an emotional well-being. Like, yes, like you said, and like he said, the jealousy and envy, that is something that is on our paper, as Laura Doyle would say. Like, that is our personal thing to deal with. However, if you're making a commitment to me, but then you're also like, "But I'm also going to go do whatever I want," that is kind of contradicting itself to me, right?

John: Exactly, yeah. If you have the commitment piece in there, right? So it's like, yeah. And there, I think there's a few different flaws in his thing, which, again, like to give him credit posthumously since he has passed, but he did revise some of it. He didn't do a great job of revising it. It was kind of like, you know, "I was wrong about some of these things," right? But, uh, but yeah. But one of the things... I just forgot what I was... I had something that... your notebook. I know, I need my notebook. But I had something I was going to say, but I mean, I've got a few things about it. But one of them is, you know, just the... Oh, I know what I was going to talk about. It's like, okay, so one of the things you're doing when you're making a commitment, right, is you are choosing, when you're in a rational state of mind, that like, in a good state, over a long-term rumination on the concept or idea, a course of action that you want to take, right? And the commitment part of it, it's holding you to that action, right? And when you get married in front of God and witnesses, and your family and friends, and you make public vows, it's not just for a show. It's not just so you can have a party. So that you're telling these people, like, if I tell you otherwise, know me and my rational mind, who has spent time deliberating on this, have chosen to do this. And so even if I say, "No, I don't want this anymore," you show up and say, "No, no, you do want this. This is what you told us to make sure that you fulfill your commitment," right? That's why you made this commitment publicly. You involved us with that. We didn't just have a party, right? And so, I think what's critical about that is to understand that, you know, just like, if you're familiar with the Iliad, right? The... this been long... Odysseus, or I forget his name. I think it's Iliad and the Odyssey, right? Is that what it is? But the main guy in the play, or not the play, I guess it's... I don't know what you call it.

Nicole: Like, you're asking me to go back to ninth grade, the one time I read...

John: So, in the story, let's say, there's a point where he's sailing the ship past the sirens, right? The sirens are these mythical creatures that have, like, the... I think the... they sing, and yeah, they sing. They're like, they look like... they're like mermaids, kind of like. They're attractive women. They like drown the people, exactly, right? So, but he wanted to hear the song, right? So he told his crew to all put wax in their ears, but he said, "Tie me to the mast of the ship," right? And then when we go by, and he said, "No matter what I say, even if I'm like, 'Untie me now,' no matter what command I give you or order, do not untie me," right? "Do not..." I have a quick question, though. If they have wax in their ears so they can't hear the song, are they going to be able to hear him say, "Untie me"?

John: I never thought of that. I think that I either have something wrong with the story, or Homer just... you just put a SmackDown on Homer. Good job.

Nicole: Yeah, that's true. But anyway, the point is that he wanted, he did not want, you know, in his rational mind, he made the decision that he doesn't want to go and visit the sirens.

John: Right.

Nicole: In his irrational mind, when they started playing the music, of course, that's the first thing that he was doing.

John: Is he or they started singing, and he's like, "No, no, no, untie me. I want to go. I want to go, go, you know, take a trip in the ocean," and they didn't. But it's the same thing with us, right? This is a very long-winded explanation, but the point is, and I think it's really important to understand why commitment is actually important and why we do this publicly and why we spend money and buy engagement rings and all these things. Because you have a long time to think about getting married or getting into a relationship, right? You have a long time because that's why you, you know, but in the split second, those are the decisions that we make that destroy them. And so the point is that you get angry in an argument, or you do something that you're upset at your partner. Those, in your rational mind, you made this choice, and you had a long time to deliberate on that choice, and you want people to hold you to it.

Nicole: So, what is the problem with what he's saying is that he assumes that people always operate rationally, but they don't. We know when we make a commitment that we are in our rational mind, and that's why we make a vow and we ask other people to hold us to it. Because we know that at some point, we're not going to be in our rational minds. And when you're out at a nightclub, whatever, getting drunk, and you potentially cheat on your partner, that is in your irrational mind. But it helps to have the commitment to be like, "Oh yeah, I can't do this because I have a reason, there's penalties, there's something that's holding you besides just saying we're just free to do whatever we want." Or even just when you get in an argument, like you come back to the commitment. You might be mad, but you don't just break up or you don't just get a divorce because you're upset. You have a commitment that matters.

John: That's 100% correct. And I just want to add, though, to what you said because the way you're describing it, and I know why you're describing it, sounds really hard, right? To commit and to honor your commitment. And to be honest, I know why you explained it that way because a lot of people treat it that way, right? Like a lot of things that we see on the internet make me like, "Why did you even get married then? Why did you even pick this person? You act like you don't even like them." So, I wanted to add that committing to somebody, especially someone you married, should never feel hard.

Nicole: Exactly. Like it should never be like, "Oh, I want to go out and, you know, go to the bar and maybe talk to some guys and see what happened." Like then, you know, like that's natural. A lot of people like to justify the behaviors that you were talking about, you know, like going out and getting drunk and cheating, or like being like, "Oh, I need to commit with like, oh, we're not supposed to be with only one person," or like, "It's natural to be attracted to other people," and all these other things that I'm sure you have heard. And I'm sure there's other variations of what I just said that people have heard. But from someone, and we talk about this a lot, that used to maybe be in a relationship and still be committed, yeah, but also be like, "Oh well, that person's attractive," or whatever. Like now, I never do that. And so, I think that people who are coming from a place of what I just said, they maybe have just never had the connection where commitment seems like an absolute no-brainer, or like they're genuinely not attracted to other people because they're so attracted to their partner. I understand that they probably never even have experienced that because, as I just said, like I hadn't even experienced that until we were together. But it is out there, and like, people will try to act like we're the weird ones for saying this. But to be honest, like when you have the connection and you have the intimacy and you have the relationship that we have, it's a no-brainer. You know, like you said, that you want to be with this person, commitment is just a natural thing. There's no other way. Like, you're not attracted to other people. Like you don't need to be like, "Oh, that person's attractive," or like, you know, like that's not, or like going to a Chip and Dale's thing. Like when we watched the episode, which we're still not completely done with the series, but I was just like, I can understand if they were all single. Yeah, it's even still not like the best thing, but I can understand it because they're single. It's like whatever, they're just going to Vegas to be wild and party, and they're not committed to anybody, so it's just their choice. But for married women to be going to see half-naked and naked men, some of them look like they were naked in the previews just covered up with like a little hat or something. Right, I just don't understand the desire to do that. And again, maybe it comes from a place of, I have no genuine desire to look at any other man, really, besides you. But I just don't get where that is acceptable, especially because even if they want to act like they'd be fine if their husbands were at a strip club, I doubt that their husbands would be at a strip club. And the other part that I understand as a woman is, I do feel like in a situation like that, women can be faithful more than men. I'm not saying significantly more, but I think they can control themselves in situations like that a little bit more, an individual situation.

John: Okay, sure. I agree. I agree. But it's still not ideal for anybody. But I'm just saying that I think women justify it because of that rationale in their mind.

Nicole: Right. But even when we were watching it, I'm like, if you love your husband like you say you do, right, why do you want to do this?

John: Well, and the thing I think that's important, you know, without sidetracking too much from the topic, but I guess it's related, is that the appearance of wrongdoing is wrong when you're in a relationship.

Nicole: Mhm, because the reason why it's wrong, the appearance of wrongdoing, is because it casts, it throws shade on your relationship.

Partner: Okay, we talked about this a little bit before, but guys don't get this, or women don't get this, is that look, I know that you, as a trustworthy person—I'm using the general 'you', not you specifically, but it applies to you too—but I know that, like, I guess I could just use 'you'. But if you went out to a nightclub with your girls and you had a couple of drinks, that you'd be completely faithful and you wouldn't do anything wrong, right? However, the fact that you're doing it, even though you yourself wouldn't do anything wrong and you never would, that's not the point. And it's not a point of trust, it's not a point of insecurity, it's a point of that—how does that make me look? Like, if my wife is out there getting, you know, having some drinks at a nightclub without me, well, and vice versa if you were out doing the same thing. Yeah, it's how it makes your partner look.

Partner: Before the women come for you and being like, "Why is this guy just talking about himself?" That's what he's most upset about. It goes the same way for women too.

Partner: Yeah, of course. Yeah, I mean, I think I talked about in the podcast before, there's an old preacher, Billy Graham, right? He had this rule of like, because a lot of preachers got involved in scandals or got accused, he's like, "I will never be in the room with a woman alone." If there's a woman, if she wants to talk to me, whatever it is, someone else has to be present. What if it's your doctor? Even the doctor. Just, that's his rule. Unless it's his wife, he's never in a room because—and the reason why is because he doesn't even want anyone to think that there's even any chance of him doing something. Like, he's getting rid of the appearance of wrongdoing, right? Because it's respectful to your partner to get rid of the appearance of wrongdoing.

Partner: But that's not really the topic of the—no, I just brought up the Mormon wives thing because you did talk about the Chippendales in the beginning with the freedom, right? And how they were making it seem like, "Oh, like, you know, I'm glad you're not a controlling husband." But it's like, and then they were making fun of that one girl, right? Because her husband was mad at her.

Partner: Oh yeah, yeah, the Jen girl. And like, I'm not saying that he was in the right, because I think he also, like, you know, he was trying to also get away with gambling, and he's supposedly a Mormon, and I think that's not allowed or something. So, I don't know. I think that was a whole mess. But the way that I've also seen other people, like on social media, be like, "Yeah, it was so refreshing to see so-and-so's couple relationship, like, so healthy that she could go, you know." It's like, I think—which is also why we started this podcast—that what people think is healthy, is healthy.

Partner: Yeah, not because I think they have a mentality like that—is his name Harry Brown?—from the first book we were talking about, "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World." I think they think in their mind, "Oh, if the partners let the other person go do whatever they want, right, then that's healthy." And it's like, yes, that is healthy. You should let your partner do what they want to do. But, at the same time, if you're in a marriage, right, you made a commitment. There are some things you should not be doing because of that commitment. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just like, if you have freedom to go and book a photographer, right, and you know, you could be like, "Hey, I want to do this sort of posing and stuff, and can you edit it this way?" And they could be like, "No, like, this is my style." You know what I mean? And if you signed a contract with them, knowing their style, and you're still like, "Okay, well, I'm going to try to make them do that," like, you signed a contract. So, like, they can tell you, "No, I don't want to work with you because you're not listening to what they had to say." Right? Like, you do have freedom to do what you want to do, but also, if you're involving somebody else, and you have a contract with that person, which is what marriage is, there are going to be certain things you should and shouldn't do, or a way that things should go. Just like when you get married, you shouldn't cheat on them. You know, you should work through things together, and you should stay with them through sickness and health, just like you said in your vows, and richer or poorer. Like, that's a contract.

Partner: Right. And so, people, I think, are getting it confused. Like, they hear a brown guy and being like, "Oh, well, if, you know, they see a couple, a girl going to Vegas, and her husband being like, 'Yeah, I don't care.'" To me, when I think it was Macy, when her husband was like, "I don't care if you're going Vegas with the girls," I was like, "Do you care about her at all?"

Partner: Yeah, well, okay, and another thing is, like, as a man, as a leader, right, as a fatherly figure, right, we've talked about this before, that's kind of how a man has to be. Like, you know, you're not doing a good job if you're not leading, right? If you're not setting the direction, if you're not creating boundaries, if you're not giving correction where it needs to be given, just like a parent is a horrible parent if they let a child do whatever they want. And they're like, "I love you, and I trust you." That doesn't mean—I would never tell our daughter, never tell Sofia, "I love you, and I trust you." Yeah, you want—yeah, just go ahead and go to that party, wear whatever you want, do whatever you want, stay out as late as you want, have electronics. As I trust you and I love you, that—no, that—like, and if someone—if I did say that, no one would be like, "Oh, you have such a great relationship with your child. It's amazing to see that it's so healthy," right? Because you just trust her, and you just love her, and you don't care because you know that she's going to—no, a good parent has boundaries, has discipline, because they—you see a parent that acts like that, you say, "This parent does not love this child."

Partner: Right. When I see a relationship between two people, especially the man, right, because I can judge from the man's perspective, the man lets a woman do whatever she wants to do and says, "I trust her," I say that man does not love that woman. That's why I said, "I want to know what flavor of ice cream, and I want to know if it's a cup or a cone," because I want to be intimately involved. I don't like—oh, this is another thing I was going to talk about—is that there is no concept of privacy when you're in a relationship. Well, you can't have deep intimacy if you have private things. It doesn't exist anymore.

Partner: Right. And people get upset about this, but it's not just me saying this.

Partner: Well, let me say one thing really quick.

Partner: Yeah, you can go to the bathroom alone.

Partner: Yeah, but that's fine. But I'm saying, like, I get what—

John: You're saying, but not privacy. I'm saying for people who are going to come out of the woodwork and be like, "Do trying to have a bathroom with each other?" You could... It doesn't matter. Like, trying to have a concept of personal privacy in a relationship. But even you know, even great philosophers, and it's not just Stoics who said this, but I know Sen had said this. He said that what you do in private, you should be willing to do in public. Like, you should have nothing that you're hiding. You should live in a house made of see-through glass.

Nicole: Right, because even if you're outside of a relationship, if you feel like you need privacy...

John: Yeah, but really, if you feel like you need privacy, it probably means you're doing things you shouldn't be doing. Because if you're living a flawless life, which again, no one is living a flawless life, but if you are, then you're like, "I don't care if my house is made out of glass. I don't care. I have no need for privacy. I don't care if I publicly, you know, everything about what I do." So, privacy is a foothold also. And again, you might think that it's fine, but what's done in the dark, it starts small and then it becomes big.

Nicole: Now, that is like chef's kiss. That is so true. And I didn't want to interrupt you, but that's what P. Diddy is going through right, or anybody who's ever done some shady stuff and had something going on, some skeletons in their closet, and then they got... they came out. Like, people should be living like people will find out what they're doing. I'm not saying that certain things you do by yourself, we're not saying that you need to do everything in front of your partner, tell him every single little detail. No, but what you said is so important. It's like, if I am getting ice cream with my friends, I want to be like, "Hey, I tried this ice cream flavor." And you're not asking me because you're like, "Did you eat chocolate or vanilla? I told you to eat chocolate today and get a cup. You don't need any more cones." That's what they think that it is.

John: Yeah, that's what they think. And they also think that it's about caring if you're sharing your location. You're constantly looking at it. We share a location, and the only time I will look at your location is if you're on a hike and it's been like an hour longer than I thought you would have been. And I'm like, "Is he okay? Is his little dot moving on the map?" So I know that he's moving somewhere, or I can text you and be like, "Hey, I see you're still there. Are you still talking to whoever?" It's not like a constant monitoring thing. It's literally like knowing where your partner is.

Nicole: There's another thing called trust but verify. I'm sure you've heard that before too, right?

John: Trust but verify, which means that yeah, you should trust. You should be a person who is a trusting person, but you should also verify because there are times when your trust is misplaced. And no one who places their trust ever thinks it's misplaced; otherwise, you wouldn't place your trust. That's the whole point of it. So it's like, just like I talk about all the time, is that no one expects to be cheated on, and no one really plans to cheat either. It's that if you do, you already have dubious intent. But what I'm saying is that 99% of people that will sit here and tell both of us, "You don't trust your partner," or like, "I totally trust my spouse," or whatever it is, that's the people that are like, some of those people get cheated on or cheat. Everyone thinks that they have perfect judgment in terms of where they put their trust.

Nicole: But it can't be just like when they do the survey, and they're like, "Are you a better driver than most people?" Yeah, you are. 90% of people say they are, but that can't be true. It can't statistically be true. 90% of people can't be better than most people. They think they're better than the like 10%, okay, you could be better than, but you can't be... But the question is, are you better than the majority of drivers?

John: Oh, okay, right. So it can't be true. It's the same thing. So that's why it's like, no matter what you think right now, you have to check yourself and realize that you're not above the law. You're not above... That's why it's important to have some boundaries in a relationship and to do things. I just don't see what the big deal is. People get so mad at you. I guess because they act like you have to check in every time. I think it's being misconstrued because of what I said earlier, where these people have never even been in a relationship where they want to tell their partner what ice cream they got when they go out with their friends. The difference is like, I want to tell you, and I want you to have my location because I also want you to know where I'm at in case something were to happen. Like, or I'm like, "Hey, I'm going to the grocery store," and then I'm gone for 3 hours, and then you can see that my body is in a garbage can behind the grocery store or something. I'm being dramatic, but at the same time, I'm not because you don't know what's going to happen.

John: Right, yeah. So it makes sense. It's not from a controlling standpoint, and plus, it's a two-sided thing. Like, you know where I'm going, I know where you're going. It's not a one-sided thing that I guess they're assuming a lot of people like to assume when a guy has boundaries like that or certain things like that, that he's controlling. If I needed to check up on you, if I needed to make sure that you're doing what you're supposed to be doing because if I wasn't making sure of it, that you'd be out there being a Floy, then you have a child. Then I wouldn't be in a relationship. It's ridiculous to be in a relationship with someone that you have to police. The boundaries don't exist so that you can police someone. If you're placing boundaries in order to police someone, you've got a big problem. People kind of get, you know, these are just guidelines about transparency. And to present the other side of it because a lot of times, women are really upset about this. It's like, "Hey, if you ever ask me for my phone, like if you're like, 'Hey, can I see your phone? Can I look through your messages?'" I guess you did do that one time, right? And I'm like, "Yeah, here. Here you go." I'm not going to get upset. I'm not going to get upset.

John: To get offended, right? Because as someone who cares about you as a partner, I don't want you to have to suffer with your own insecurity, whether it's warranted or not. Why would I create an obstacle or be like, "I'm going to just give you whatever you need in order to help you feel better"? Maybe you watched some movie about some guy that was cheating on his girlfriend, and maybe that's why you're saying this. Because I would totally do that, be like, "Watch this movie," or maybe you had a dream, right? Or whatever it is. I'm going to just give it to you and not worry about it because I don't want you to suffer with the worry. Like, live in a glass house, and so everything's out there, you know? And to feel bad about it, to be like, "Oh yeah, I want to look at his phone, but I don't want to offend him." You can just ask me. There you go. Then I'm not going to make it hard for you, right? Because that's the whole point. There may be a time when I have an insecurity, and then the transparency would help me. But we're helping each other because we're not perfect. But they don't see that as freedom, but we see that as freedom, right? We live so openly with each other, so transparent, so involved in each other's lives, that that is actual freedom within a relationship. Like the freedom to have boundaries on both sides and know that your partner respects you enough to live this way, and you're going to do the same to them.

Nicole: Yeah, like that is the freedom, and people have got it confused because people aren't in very romantic and intimate relationships anymore. It's hard for us to even be understood a lot of times by other couples because a lot of couples live the way that we've been talking about, where it's like, "Oh, I don't care if he goes to the bar or whatever." And it's like, I get what you're trying to say, but at the same time, why are you choosing to go to a bar rather than even just staying home with your partner and making drinks at home? Or like having a night where you guys go out together or something like that? Like, I get hanging out with your girlfriends or your guy friends, and I think that's important, and you shouldn't not have friends, right? But it's like, you should be doing things that are appropriate. And every affair starts somewhere; it has to start somewhere, some location. That's where it's like, again, people are thinking, "Oh well, yeah," as if you're sitting at home and then like the seed of it is just planted in your heart. Like you're just like, "Okay, I'm just going to go out and cheat." That's not how it happens. It happens innocently 90% of the time. That's what, if you ask someone and they describe what happened, what do they always say? They say, "Oh well, you know, I wasn't really thinking anything, wasn't whatever, you know." So it's like, if you're eliminating, you know, part of, again, say leadership of a man in a relationship is protecting the relationship. Not, again, not policing because I'm afraid that if I don't keep you on a short leash, you're going to go and do shit that you're not, you know, like I don't. I know that I didn't, I don't have to put you on any leash. I know that how much you love me, how you feel about me, that I don't need to do anything. But it doesn't mean that I don't anyway because boundaries, because it's not policing, it's because it's protecting, right? You know what I'm saying? And that's the thing, is like you have to protect the relationship because even the most in-love person, right, who is incorruptible, let's say, if you put them into temptation enough times, they may start to become corruptible, right? It's like, it's better to avoid completely than to risk that again. And maybe your relationship, maybe you will survive through it. It's just like, again, there's that show, right? What does that show that I was like, "Oh man, this is such a horrible show"? Temptation Island or something when we saw the previews from that. I think it was the ultimatum one with like the people in a relationship, and then they can go and talk to other people though and see if they want to still be in the relationship. A few shows like that where they have some island, and they're, you know, they're like in their swimsuits, and they're just hanging out. It's just stupid. It's not a test of your relationship to see how faithful you are or if you really love this person. It's stupid. That's what it is because when you set people up, it's just like, okay.

John: Look, give you another quote, Jocko Willink, so discipline is freedom, right? I'm eating, what am I eating now? Only meat and eggs, right? There's freedom in that. Why? Because I don't have to decide what else. Like, I know what the rules are. It's meat or it's eggs, right? And so because I have the rules, I have freedom within those rules. But that thing, it's for my protection. Like, if I just do a diet, but there's no rules to the diet, guess how effective that diet will be? Zero effectiveness, right? You see what I'm saying? So that's the thing about it, is that it's like you have restrictions that you've put in place, but they're self, like, you've agreed to those restrictions, and those things need to be there in order to protect the relationship, right?

Nicole: I think people have an issue with the boundaries thing because they butt up against the boundaries. But when you're in a relationship like we have, you don't even get close to the boundaries because you don't want to. There's no desire to get close to crossing the boundary line. But I think that when people hear these things, they don't like it because they would have a hard time because they would cross the boundary line, right? And then they would get into a situation that their partner wouldn't like. But when you have boundaries that make sense in your relationship like we do, you don't even get close to the boundaries, so you feel free. Like, it doesn't feel confined. But I'm sure that the people who have a problem with it feel like Shamu at SeaWorld, where they're like, "I can only go so far. You're stopping me from..." But yeah, we don't. We feel like we're in the ocean.

John: There was a girl that commented on my Instagram, and she was like, I forgot what exactly she said. I was telling you last night, but she was like, "It's like you're going to restrict me, stop me from having fun." You know, it's like, if you think that's fun.

John: You should be single. That's what she's saying. Like, oh no, I know. She's the one girl who did a duet on my TikTok and was like, "Watch out, ladies, for these kinds of men. Don't pick this man or be a pick-me girl for this kind of man because he will make it so that you feel like you're going to miss out on all the fun you know that you could have just because now you're with him." And he's going to make you feel like you should be spending all your time with him instead of having fun on your own or whatever. I forget exactly, just like, ridiculous. You're missing out on fun by staying in with your partner rather than going out with your girlfriends to a bar. You should be single, right? If you view hanging out with your partner in the way that you just described, you should be single. That's what I'm trying to say. These people are in relationships that they really shouldn't be in. If you genuinely believe those things, that's fine. I'm not saying you're wrong, but you should not be with another person if you strongly view going out and partying like you are single as the most fun you're going to ever have.

Nicole: And then another thing that you said earlier is that I think people need to realize when you were talking about how even if you're super committed and in a very loving relationship, if you're put in situations, you're more likely to be tempted to do something. And that's true with everything. That's why they tell you that who you hang out with influences you. It's the same way. So if you're in such a situation where you shouldn't be, hanging out with another person, another man, right, like as myself, I would still never ever do something like that. Like, nobody can influence me to do that. But people don't realize how subtly they're influenced.

John: Right, and exactly, will potentially start second-guessing it. Like you said, even like I know because of our relationship, I would not be influenced to do that. But like you said, I still understand that I get influenced by certain things. Like you said, when I watched a movie and the guy cheated, and I was like, you know, that's me being influenced by the fear within whatever I'm watching. But it's influencing me to now be like, "Oh, I'm afraid that might happen to me. Let me go look at his phone or something. Ask him to look at his phone or something."

Nicole: Well, check this out. Okay, remember, I guess a week ago when we were watching the Mormon Housewives sing or the Mormon wife sing, right? And you're like, there was the one girl, right, that was like not really doing anything wrong, you know, and she was, and the Gen girl, yeah. And you were kind of getting a little bit like, "John, why are you being so harsh on this girl?" I'll tell you why. I'll tell you exactly why. I had to think about that for a little bit. I was like, why is this so wrong? Why is she even more wrong than some of them? And I thought about it and I came up to an answer. And it's exactly what you just said. So what happens when you hang around with the wrong kind of people is like, think about this way. If she wasn't hanging around those people, would she be anywhere near a strip club? Would she be anywhere near Chippendales? So, relative to them, she's an angel. She's not touching the strippers. She's not, but she's still there. So what happens when you hang around the wrong people is you start to have a relative morality where it's relative to the things that people are doing. So if you take those other people away, right, and she was at Chippendales, you're like, "What the hell are you doing?" But because those other people are there and they're touching the strippers and they're doing all this other stuff, and now what she's doing doesn't seem like as big of a deal. You see what I'm saying? So it creates an illusion in your head that because you're not doing as bad as what other people are doing, that you're not doing anything wrong. Whereas just being there, right, like if you took them away, right, why are you even in the parking lot of this place at all? You see what I'm saying? Just being there is wrong. So I think you get the point that I'm making. But that's the whole thing about it, is that you lose track. It's a slippery slope. Like you don't realize that you're slipping, and relative to the people that are further down the slope than you, you're like, "I'm still way up here." So you think you're up here, but what's happening is you're both sliding, and you're maintaining the same height. So you think you're not going anywhere, but you're sliding down.

Nicole: Yeah, so, yeah. And the other thing I was going to say is that, you know, when people get into a relationship, how many people think, "I hope this ends," right? No one ever gets like, "Why would you commit to someone? Why would you get in a relationship thinking, 'I hope this ends,' right?" So relationships end. A lot of relationships, most relationships do end. But I guarantee you, if we were to take a survey, and you're supposed to look at the causes of a relationship ending, right, I guarantee you 95% of them would have an external factor, external to the relationship, as one of the primary causes for that relationship ending. I'm not saying there wasn't any kind of inner turmoil, but I'm saying of the actual nail in the coffin, the thing that caused it to finally end, that destroyed the relationship, 95% of the time, I would guess there was some kind of external influence was a thing.

John: And so if you're a smart person and you got into a relationship because you don't want it to end, why the hell, like, if a relationship ends because between the two of you, it ends because you have irreconcilable differences, right, that's fine. Like, if that's the reason, that's the only reason a relationship should end, is because you two can't get along, and you can't work it out, right? But a lot of times, those relationships don't even have to end because if there's not an external influence, you will work it out, and you will figure out how to work out together and to come back together. Because what happens is there's an external influence. So the more that you cut that stuff out, right, again, yeah, it might be innocent, going to the bar with a couple of your girlfriends, whatever. I get it. I totally get it. Or go dancing or whatever it is. Or, you know, guys' night out, we go to the bar and shoot some shit. That might seem totally innocent. But when the relationship starts to have some kind of trouble, which all relationships do, right, do you want to be like, "Oh, you know what? Fuck. The reason why this ended, the reason why this, I wasted all this time and went through all this pain, was because of some external influence that could have easily been avoided."

John: With the simplest boundaries, it's so stupid, you know? That's why I think it's just... you know, like, yeah, I know that probably no one's going to rob my house, right? Like, I know that it's probably not going to happen. We live in a good neighborhood. I mean, it doesn't even happen, burglaries don't happen, but I don't leave my door unlocked, and I don't leave my door open, you know? And I don't take all my money and leave it in the house. I put it in the bank, you know what I'm saying? Like, those are small precautions against something that's not very likely to happen, but it could, so it's stupid to...

Nicole: That's why when people don't take care, I think that they're careless. Like, every person that's always like, "Oh, I trust my partner. I trust him 100%. Like, I don't need to know where they're at or anything like that." I know that that relationship is absolutely doomed. In their... I know that they don't love their partner because they don't love their relationship enough to protect it. I mean, sometimes I feel like those people are also doing bad things, you know? Because they're trying to overcompensate. Like, "You go do whatever you want. Like, I don't care, you know? Go ahead, do whatever you want." Like, that makes me feel like they're doing something that they don't want found out. So, they're like, "You go and do whatever you want, so then if you mess up, then we both have something that's bad." You know what I mean?

John: Yeah, and then, like I said, I've been coaching guys for a long time too, and I just talked to a new coaching client of mine, and it was like... and I went through his relationship history, and the past three girlfriends he had cheated on him. This one, he checks her phone. Like, he doesn't need to, but the fact that he's now the kind of guy that sets boundaries, that is like, "Ah, that's not cool that you're talking to guys. No, it's not cool that you're talking to an... it's not cool that you know." Now that he's that kind of guy, he's able to find a woman that's not going to do those. You see what I'm saying? But you have to be that kind of person. Like, you have to put prediction in place because that means that you actually care, right? So, yeah, but they think that it's no freedom, but they don't understand. Like I said, I think it's because they bounce up against the boundaries, but we've already done a whole episode on boundaries, so maybe they need to watch that. But because boundaries are good for every single relationship, not just your romantic relationship. So, I think they just, again, they don't... they don't get it because they also don't have the intimacy and the connection, but they could have that, right? And I think if they did have that, if they did deepen their relationship and they deepen their intimacy and they had more transparency with their partner, they wouldn't believe in those things anymore, and they would understand where we're coming from.

Nicole: Yeah, and again, just to reiterate what we talked about in that episode too, which, you know, just because the argument is always, "Oh, you can't hang out with your friends." Like, that seems restrictive to get a woman and then tell her she can't be hanging out with her girlfriend. And no, you can, you just have to be doing innocent things. Like, things that are acceptable, not going to the bar, getting... even if you're innocent doing it, it doesn't... you know what I'm saying? Again, and it becomes a relative thing. It's like, okay, pretty soon, then it's like, "Oh, well, all the girls are going to the SCP Club, but I'm... I'm not doing anything here. Like, I'm..." Like, it becomes dumb. So, yeah, so you can hang out with your friends. Of course, you can hang out with your friends, but you want to respect the person you're with, and they should do the same to you.

John: And the final thing about the whole thing, like with the book and stuff, is because I know Sophia was bringing it up too when she was reading. We have Sophia reading books every night. It's complicated, personally. She's reading 1984 now, but you know, it's a thing that, and what I told her, and which I think is true, and is I think is as libertarian as anything, and I think Harry missed it on this, which is that no one can obligate you. No one can... you don't owe anyone anything. You don't owe people loyalty. You don't owe people anything at all. You don't owe... like, you don't owe your parents anything. You don't owe anything. But you... you don't owe society anything, right? You don't have your duty to your country, none of that stuff. That's all bullshit. But you can obligate yourself. If I shake your hand, if I make an agreement with you, if I make a vow to you, if I tell you something, if I produce a child through my own... I have created an obligation, and I must fulfill that obligation. If I have created that obligation, no one else can do it for me. No one else can force me to be obligated, but I can obligate myself. And when you do, then you are indeed obligated, and it's not a restriction of freedom in any way. A restriction of your freedom comes from an external force or something. Like, we can restrict our own freedoms, that's fine, but it's... you know, when we do that in that respect, we're making a choice that we freely have made. And yeah, we can freely break our obligations, but there's always a cost to them, and there's the surface level cost, which he talked about, like, what will it cost you, but there's an internal cost, and that cost is an expensive cost. So, that's the thing about... is you got... it's not restricting your freedom. Like, you make choices with your freedom.

Nicole: I mean, yeah, and again, I think people who view it that way, they should just be single because that is a more self-centered, selfish way to view it, which is, there's nothing wrong with that, but the only way you can live like that is as a single person. Because when you do get into a relationship with somebody, and especially if you get married, it's about compromise. Like, it's not about you anymore. It's two people living together, cohabitating, doing life together. Like, it can't just be you doing whatever you want. Like, you have someone else to keep in mind now, and then when you have kids, you have even more people to keep in mind now. So, if you only want to focus on yourself and doing whatever you want, stay single. Like, for real, because then you can... no one... it's all about you, and the point where this is whatever you want, then that's when you... like, it should be whatever you want. It's like... like, people could say to me even now, right, as I'm on this, whether you agree with the diet or not, you know, it's a crazy diet, but I'm just doing it temporarily, partly just for discipline. But people could say, "Oh, you're... you don't have any freedom. You can only eat meat and eggs. You... you don't have..."

John: Any freedom you have, the freedom to choose, I chose it. No one chose it for me; I chose it. So how could you possibly say I'm not free? How could you tell me I'm not free? And I'm eating not just meat and eggs. So, you know, you're not over here forcing me to eat what you're eating. But my point is that could I conceivably do something other than eat meat and eggs? To the time that I've committed to it, yeah, I could. I still have the freedom. I could stop now. I've chosen to create a set of rules for myself that I have chosen to obligate myself to follow, right?

Nicole: And it's the same thing when you're in a relationship. You're doing it for an end, you know that you want this more than you want that, right? So you're creating rules, or you're agreeing to rules, or however you want to phrase it. You still have the freedom to break them, but you're not going to because you value the thing more. So yeah, but you've created that thing, so that's not... you know, that's what actually makes you the most free. Because, and this is why Jocko Willink said that discipline is freedom, is because when you are constantly controlled by your desires, when you're constantly controlled by your mood and how you feel, you are not free. That's when you're the least free, right? When you think you have the most freedom is when you have the least amount of freedom because you're a slave to your lust, to your desires, to your hunger, to your emotion. You're a slave to all of those things; you're not free at all. But when you create discipline and you say no, I'm limiting the set of things that I can do, of things that I can eat, of people I can sleep with, whatever it is, you create discipline. When you create discipline, you actually create freedom because you free yourself from being controlled by those other things, exactly that master that you didn't like anyway because you were like, every single person will obey some authority. Every single person, and it can either be, you know, you have either the master of your desires and your emotions and your, you know, that, or you'll have the master of yourself. You can be your own master, but it requires discipline and it requires commitment, and it's the same exact thing because it's discipline within a relationship. Like, it's easy to go out and hang out with your friends at bars and do single people stuff. It's harder to say no, we don't do that kind of stuff, and people judge you, and they're like, "Oh wow, you, he really controls you," then like whatever it is, or like, "Oh yeah, she's got the leash on you." They throw it both men and women throw it on either side, right? If it's a woman, they're like, "Oh yeah, he's just really controlling. He seems like a controlling man. I'm a little concerned for you." Or if it's on the other side, they're like, "Oh yeah, she, you're whipped, huh? She's got the leash on you. She got it tight on you. You got to check in," right? Again, people do both. That's how they slip in, right? But yeah, that's all right. There's my monologue to end this, well, for our thing for the week. I don't think we have anything, do we?

John: No, it's been all peaceful since the big revelation.

Nicole: That's true, the Big Bang. Yeah, no, it's been great. I can't think of anything. Yeah, we'll wait. If it persists like this for a year, then we'll declare, then we'll give ourselves a bigger award. We'll be like, "Yeah, we've made it. We've totally made it." We'd be like, then we'll actually change the podcast. We'll change it from Better Than Perfect Podcast. We'll call it the Perfect Podcast. But we're better than perfect already, so that would be going backwards.

John: I guess that's true. Better than bestest perfect. So if we make it a year, that's a long time.

Nicole: Yeah, but I don't know. I think we're always growing, so we're getting closer to that level, but we're still human, so we'll probably make some mistakes, and that's okay. I don't want people to think that it's not okay, or like, you know, you have to be afraid to make a mistake, and that's not the case. It's just not okay to make stupid mistakes that could have been prevented by boundaries or common sense. That's the thing, and that's what we're advocating for. It's like, yeah, it's okay to make a mistake and yell at your partner, right? It's not okay to cheat on your partner, right?

John: Right, and by simple boundaries, guidelines, rules, whatever you want to call it, you can prevent the one kind of mistake from ever possibly happening. So that if you want to get out of the relationship, you have a discussion and you get out of the relationship. Again, like I say this from personal experience, right? I don't like to go into the history and the details, but I was one of those people. That's why I know for sure that this is the right way to go. A person who doesn't have boundaries, a person who stepped out, yeah.

Nicole: So, take it from experience. I can guarantee you that if those things were in place, it wouldn't have been possible. I would have had to confront the issue.

John: Yeah, that's true. Because that's what is like, you know, I mean, and then that's the thing, and that's the most painful way for things to end, is for them to end from external. But I do want to say, whether you have boundaries or not, as you said, you should have boundaries, cheating is never acceptable.

Nicole: Right, of course. No matter what, like, that's still a choice at the end of the day. So before people are like, "You're justifying cheating," we never justify cheating in any capacity. It's still a choice. It's still something that you have to face if you do so.

John: Right, but you can, like I said, you can make it so that it's not an option. Instead, you have to choose to leave. That's so... All right, I think that's it for this week. If you write us a review, yeah, please.

Nicole: Yeah, do something else besides banana fingers, please.

John: Yes, anything besides banana fingers. We look at how much banana fingers, like, you're going to let banana fingers get away with it because how many times have we said banana fingers? Like, his review or her review went so far, and that could have been you. You could have left the review, and then we could have just kept on talking about your review all the time, you know? So, but yeah. And if you want to get on the podcast and you're in San Diego, or you will be in San Diego, then email us at betterthanperfectpodcast@gmail.com. And if you want some coaching, relationship coaching, that's true.

John: John's coaching. I was going to say, on the podcast, we were like, "Would coach," or if you don't...

John: Want to be on the podcast? You can be on the podcast. We do coaching, yeah, for men. One-on-one, please. I only say it because it's just men, please.

Nicole: Okay, yeah. Well, you can email us at betterthanperfectpodcast@gmail.com as well. So, I think you don't even have to say why it's just men after this episode, right?

John: Exactly. But also, follow us on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. Like and subscribe. And if you disagree with us, leave a comment and tell us, but please make sure it actually has some substance to it rather than "you guys are stupid."

Nicole: Yeah, if we're just stupid and we suck, you can just send us a personal email. I would prefer that, you know? Or a letter if you want to write a letter or something. You can do that as well.

John: But yeah, if it's related to how we're wrong, then post a comment. Go ahead.

Nicole: Right. All right, that's it. Good night. Hopefully, we find our way.