Woman: Welcome. Your woman's crazy. I remember we were passing like the Costco on the way to our house. I was like, "I'm just feeling really sad right now," and he said, "I understand why you're feeling sad. You're like healed." Well, I said I was like, "Oh, are we feeling sad? Okay," literally just went away instead of just being like, "You're sad, like about what? Why are you sad? There's nothing to be sad about," being dismissive, which is what I used to do because it didn't make sense to me when your hormones are like going up and down and up and down. I literally have said, "Baby, I've got the wheel again." But if you fight the little gremlin in all women, yeah, then it's only going to multiply beyond the perfect. We discover through our flaws. We complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship. And we're back again with our wonderful guests and friends, John and Sabrina. Yeah, they join us for another episode and round. We're having a good old time here. Then we're going to go to dinner afterwards. It's going to be fun. And Happy Valentine's Day.

John: Oh yeah, Happy Valentine's Day.

Woman: Well, today it is for us.

John: Yeah, for us it's like was long ago for you, but you know, but every day should be Valentine's Day.

Woman: We have on her nails, I know.

John: Yeah, yeah, and I wore a cupid shirt, so you know, but here we are celebrating. So, I mean, maybe we should just jump into the topic because we kind of already small-talked it. I mean, why not? Sounds like a fun one. Dig up some trauma. So, the topic for today is, I guess we'll say, healing through relationships. There's like how relationships can heal, unpacking your baggage in your relationship, unpacking it, and organizing it and like integrating it into your life and like letting it go.

Woman: I like that though, healing in a relationship because that's what it is at the end of the day. It's like we all come into our relationships with all of our baggage and all of our trauma and all of our upbringings that created who we are. And now we find our partner who helps us become a better person by healing a lot of that stuff. I mean, I think too, when before you're in a relationship, you feel like, well, you guys definitely seem like people that work on themselves regardless of being in a relationship. And me personally, before I met John, I was like, "Wow, I've worked on so much stuff. I feel so good. Like, I'm in a really good place." And then we got together, and then here's all these things that were there that I honestly don't think I could have gotten to them on my own without John. And I don't know if you guys feel the same or...

John: It's... I mean, without her, I don't think I would... I wouldn't be who I am today. And I think, no, yeah, I mean, we've had our stuff that has opened, you know, like fights or different things that we've gotten into that have made me dig deep into where that's coming from from my end. And I've had to really unpack a lot of my stuff that I didn't even know was there, you know, like thought I was just humming through life and things are good. But I think like you bury stuff so that you can continue to just kind of move forward. And it's made me unbury some of that stuff, face it, address it so that I can show up for her in the right way. Or maybe nobody's poking it, you know, like when you're on your own, nobody's poking certain things. But then when you're in a relationship, they're like, "Why do you do that?" or "Where is this coming from?" John would just like, you know, he's such a positive, just in general. Like my John, it's so funny because he's a positive guy too. We're going to look back at this podcast and be like, "Which John are you talking about?" But, you know, my John is like, he's, and to anyone who knows him, knows that he's like this gregarious, life of the party, amazing human being. But I think like, you've lived a lot of your life without actually facing your emotions or your turmoils within yourself and with your family and with your parents and your even yourself, your friendships. And, you know, me personally, I've dealt with a lot of things and I've talked about a lot of things, but I don't think I've ever fully tried to let them go or heal them. Or I keep perpetuating the same fears, you know, where you've been able to uncrack me in different ways, and I've been able to uncrack you in different ways, which has been like... And like, I mean, I even said it in my vows, like, "You've healed me in ways that I never thought were even, that I thought were past repair." You know, literally was about to bring up that part of your vows because I think that's when I lost it at your wedding because it's just, it's so true though. Because it really resonated with me too because John's healed so many things in me. And I just sobbed when you put that in your vows and knowing what you've been through too and what that means to you. It's like, that was where I lost it. Obviously, I'm losing it now. But no, like, that was... It's such a profound thing that maybe other people were just like, "Oh, you know." But having experienced it myself and knowing what you've been through and how John treats you and all that stuff, it was just really beautiful. It was a beautiful moment when John and I first got together. And it was when we were living in Little Italy. We had the galaxy light on, we had music playing, and I was like, "Wow, like, I never have to fight again." Not fight in the sense because obviously, in relationships, you're going to fight, but fight in this ugly toxicity that I grew up in. And you looked at me and you're like, "Nope, baby girl, you're safe." And it was just like, "Oh, shit," you know? Like, it was... It was like I felt like a massive weight was lifted off my shoulders. But that was just the very beginning, right? And then we really get into the nitty-gritty of like the years of starting to mend our life, and then unpacking it. It was like, "Oh, shit, I'm safe, but wait a minute, you still got shit to go through. Like, you still got shit to unpack and heal." But yeah, like, but we're doing it in a safe space now, where, you know, and I think from a...

John: From the male perspective, I think there's a reluctance to admit your weaknesses, right? And I think you want to obviously show up strong for your partner, but with that said, we have our shit that's like, you know, the deep parts of our heart, our relationship with our parents, other friends, just different things we've been through. Losing a family member, whatever it is, these things have created parts of you that you know you put armor on. But it's been nice to be able to know that I can live in that stuff and experience some of it and let my body and soul process it, and know that I'm in a relationship where I can allow her to see that vulnerability and know she's not going to leave. It's not like, "Oh, if I'm vulnerable, then there she goes, and I'm alone again." And so, just knowing that they're not going anywhere. Obviously, you can't just show up like a shit every day because then they should leave. But I mean, I think you need to be able to address your more vulnerable parts and having a partner that can help you do that and can help you open your heart and see these things, I think it's just the most powerful thing.

Nicole: No, I totally get that. Like going back to the tub thing we were talking about in the last episode, you're really not going to leave? I ask John that all the time because I feel like every time he sees this ugly side of me, or something that's wrong with me or what I've been through, I'm like, "Is he going to go?" You know, like he's been here through a lot of stuff, but I'm like, "Is one of these things going to be like, 'Nope, I can't deal with this, I got to go'?" But you're right, I know deep down that he's not going to do that. But it is that part of you that's sometimes like, "Oh well, is this buried thing inside of me going to be the crack that breaks the whatever back?" You know, straw that breaks, that's what it is.

John: Yeah, it's funny for me too, like just kind of like Nicole was saying. I mean, I thought I was the epitome of personal development. I mean, I taught it to guys, I coached guys, I was stoic philosophy here, didn't react, just waiting for enlightenment to poof into me, like reach the top level, where's my Nirvana. And then when we got into the relationship, I found all the stuff that I still needed to work on, which was great. I mean, it's a great thing. And Nicole has made me into a better man and continues to make me a better man. And I think that's the real value of a relationship, is that it helps you to polish those rough parts that you don't even know. It's like to dig deeper. I can't reach it myself, but she can. She has cute little teeny tiny fingers; she can dig down there. Even things like simple things where I thought, "Okay, I'm a very amiable person as far as understanding people and communicating and not getting into conflict." I'm pretty high up there. And then I learned that I was fairly defensive, and I had to deal with that. It's like, "Okay, wow." I would never have seen that, but I knew where that came from too and was trying to talk to him about it, but he hadn't accepted it about himself yet.

Nicole: You know what I mean? And I tried to say it in a very kind way, but you also have to accept the thing because there's plenty of things too that John's like, "Oh, you're doing this, and it probably comes from this." And I'm like, "I didn't accept it." So I'm like, "No, it's..." But then when you finally accept it, you're like, "Okay, now we can work on this, and you can help me heal this thing that's been here." Because you have to accept it; otherwise, you'll just be like, "No." Like, you have to really accept it. I don't know how to describe it.

John: Well, it's like to fix a problem, identifying, or what's the saying, like the first thing you have to do is identify.

Nicole: Yeah, admit that there's a problem. Because I think you can identify it. The alcohol, do you get what I'm saying? Like, same, same but different. I think you can know that it's going on without accepting it. So maybe to accept it. John, for a long, and I mean, this is just recent in our lives where he's really fully opening up his heart to shit like, "I have a lot of trauma." And it's funny that you guys have tub moments because we have tub moments. We debrief in tubs. And it was like this moment where he looked at me, had no idea, right? Like this was just a few weeks ago, and he was like, "I've felt alone my whole life," and crying. And I'm like, "You're not alone, babe. Like, I'm right here." I'm crying thinking about it because you're never alone, and I'm always going to be here for you. But that trauma, right? And then, as a man, to admit you have trauma, and it's okay. It's okay to, like you said, obviously don't be a shit about it, you know, but at the same time, you got to work through it. How you're going to show up for someone as a better person is to realize, "Yeah, maybe this is living in me. Why did I feel this way?" You don't want to live in it; you don't want to live in your trauma because then you're just a victim of it. But I think being able to recognize where those feelings are coming from so that you can go into new situations and show up as a better person. But you can't just brush it under the carpet, you know. Then it's just going to be a big old carpet full of shit, and it's messy and dirty and dusty, and no one wants that. And I mean, same thing with women too. And it's also like, well, with you, so you had a bunch of trauma.

Nicole: Yeah, I had a gnarly childhood.

John: She grew up in a really abusive home, super abusive home. My father beat me, you know, my whole life, like not just like spankings but like bruises. The first black eye I had was when she was like five.

Nicole: Oh wow. So like, but she would tell me about this stuff, she's like, "Oh yeah, like abusive home, but haha," like she would joke about it.

John: Just to kind of brush it under the rug, right? Just to not have it be part of her identity, totally understand. But then, I think because of the way that she would talk about it, I didn't really understand it. It was kind of like, I told her, "You're giving me the subject lines of the emails, but I've never read the body of an email." And so, yeah, I know that you had a traumatic background, but...

John: Let's handle it like, "Mana, come on, you know. Why are you being weak?" You know, like in our relationship, I'd be like, "Come on, let's do things." She'd be like, "I need time to process, and I've got this stuff I'm working through." And I'm like, I didn't really fully understand it because she only gave me, you know, the spark notes. And then, you know, as of more recently, we dove into what was this, and let her open up some of the stories about the abuse and really walking me through. How these days, I was able to put myself in her shoes or as an observer of these moments, and then all of a sudden, I just understood her so much more. And I understood her reactivity towards things so much more because she would have these little moments where she would react to something where I'd slightly raise my voice or I'd show some emotion, and then she would shut down. And I was like, "What the fuck is that? That's not okay. You can't react like that when I'm just showing a little bit of emotion." But I didn't understand where it came from, right? And so then, once we started to really unpack where it came from, now I'm like, "Okay, this is why." It's just like, she's just wounded, you know? And she has these wounds now. And now I'm like, "Okay, well, if I approach her in this way, it could trigger something." And now, is it something that she can let trigger her forever? No, because can I be allowed to have loud emotions sometimes? Yes, for sure. So we're working through her not being as easily triggered, but me also knowing that when I do trigger something and it creates that reaction, where did that come from and not just shame her for it. Now I know the truth behind it.

Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was like, you know, in the beginning of our relationship, he'd be like, "Why are you getting like this? I didn't even do anything." And he naturally has a loud voice, right? Like, John's never yelled at me, but he'll get, you know, more stern, and immediately I'm just like, "I'm the little kid that was being beaten," you know? And I'm like, "I don't want to talk. I have anxiety. I'm going to go away." And I'm just like, "Don't talk to me." And he's like, "Why are you acting like you can't? This isn't a way, you know. This isn't conducive to life. We can't continue on like this." But he didn't, and I, in my head, I'm like, "Don't you know?" And she's like, "I told you." I was like, "Abused." But to me, I didn't get the C. But then once you really spelled it out and opened up her heart around, "This is why. This is the types of things that happened," and walked me through them, and we had probably like a 4-hour tub talk, sitting in the tub, both of us crying, just working through our shit. And then I had this whole new perspective on it where I was just like, "Oh, this is why you're reacting these ways. And this is how I need to show up when you do react in that way. I need to not just get annoyed with you for being like that. I need to lean into it and be there for you."

Nicole: Because you spent a lot of time where you were getting abused and then had to be alone in that. And like, that's not what you need. You need empathy.

John: Yeah, mhm, yeah, yeah. And it was the same thing back with you. I wouldn't understand how you could just walk away from things, but you were perpetuating the cycle of just being alone. And it's not like, you know, no fault of your mom's, but she was a single mom and having to provide for three kids. And a lot of your childhood was you fending for yourself, and with a father who wasn't emotionally available and kind of, you know, emotionally abusive in some ways, it made so much more sense where I'm just like, "Babe, I love you. You can trust me because you've never had that sense of, like, I can trust somebody." You had hyper-independence. You're like, "Live alone."

Nicole: I'm like, "Nope." We didn't get here. John used to follow me into the next room when I would try to leave, and I hated it. But I'm glad he kept doing it because I grew up very much like my mom would give everybody the silent treatment for days. There was not any talk about feelings and emotions and things like that because my parents didn't have the emotional intelligence back then. From their own childhood, I can see that now. But I had learned these avoidant sort of ways to handle things because that's how I handled them back then too. And so I would just want to leave when I would get overwhelmed. And I'm like, "Let me sit and think about it." And even sometimes now, I'll be like, "You know what, never mind. I'll figure it out myself." No, we're not doing that. We're figuring it out together, which is a genuine thing. There is a genuine part of me that from that time is like, "I can figure this out because I had to figure everything out." So it's not like a dig at John even when I say it, but he's like, "No, let's figure it out." And there is something scary about putting stuff on somebody when you don't know if they can handle the things, you know? And even though he can, I feel like I related to when you said, you know, "What's going to happen? Can someone see all these things about me and still be there?" Right? Because if you've never had that in a way, never shown anybody all your deepest, darkest parts of you, how do you know that they're going to, right? I mean, you don't.

John: Yeah, and I think that's the thing, is like, you know, but you have to trust. Really, you got to trust. Or like, if you open it all up and they don't want to be there for you, then that's true. Well, that's also the answer, I guess.

Nicole: So, I've always been very open about my trauma. I'll tell anyone. Like, I was beat. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, but not really though, 'cause you like, you brush over with. I joke about it.

John: You joke about it, which isn't being open.

John: About it, I would open up about it. It wasn't something that I would not talk about at all.

Nicole: Yeah, but in difference from with you, you wouldn't talk about any. It took years for us to find out. I didn't even know it was there.

John: Yeah, I was like, "I'm just good." You asked for it, though, because we were on one of our first hikes, and you're like, "Yeah, I really want to do Ayahuasca. I don't even know what my trauma is." And then it's like, now you've got it, you got the answer, which is great because now we're going to go do Ayahuasca next month, and it's like, at least I know what I'm going to go work through versus coming in and just getting blindsided by all of it.

Nicole: Yeah, but I think what helps motivate us to be able to do it is that we see that the trauma, because a lot of times we do have the mindset, "Oh, I'll just deal with it myself." And dealing with it myself a lot of times looks like putting it back under, putting it in a drawer.

John: Yeah, it's good. I just won't say that anymore. I won't act this way anymore. You're just suppressing it but not really dealing with it. But when we see how, when we are in so much love with our partner and value our partner, how much it hurts them, our unresolved trauma, and then that motivates us to actually dig in there. Because I know that for me, it was like, "Oh wow, these things, these small things that I'm doing, they're hurting Nicole when I'm doing those things." And so, I need to actually really resolve it because if it was just me on my own, it doesn't matter. Going or even Nicole will say sometimes, "I just avoid negative people." And it's like, well, it's not an option now when you've got a daughter, and it's like, so it's, you know, we could handle the things on our own because we could just avoid the things that hurt us.

Nicole: Exactly. So, I can just, you know, I'm living my life independently, but you know, you're coming into contact with another human being every single day. You can't just go. We talk about that, like, and I think that that was a little aha moment when we looked at each other, we're like, "Look, like you have all this trauma. That's mine now. Like, that's my trauma now." Like, we're fighting about stuff that, you know, is triggered because of your relationship with your father. Like, that's not, "You go figure that out." That's like, "We have to figure that out," because that's the rest of our lives.

John: Because of this, and my shit too. Like, yeah, at first, I was like, "Figure that out. I'm going to figure out my shit. We'll show up for each other the right person." I was like, "I need to figure myself out." And I was like, "Yeah, please go figure that out. That's a lot." Me, like turning myself away, like, "Don't look at me. Yeah, I'm damaged. I'm all these things." And I'm trying to put on this facade and like, "I'm just trying to heal through these things and like, yeah, good. I'm good." But it was almost putting on this fake front of like toxic positivity.

Nicole: Like when we met, I was like, you know, I was 21. I was like, "There's no such thing as anxiety." Like, I just, I had like an aha moment. I was like, "Anxiety isn't real. You can tell yourself these things, and you can just be positive." But then I suppressed every negative emotion I ever felt and would not deal with it. So, but I needed to do that at that point to teach myself like, "Okay, it's good to be positive and to hone that skill." But as I got older, you know, now in my later 20s, it's like, you have to be able to feel the emotion. Don't delve into the emotion and be a victim, right. But you also can't just put a fucking smiley face on it and pretend like everything's fine because that's what I did for a long time and got to process it. I didn't process it. I was just like, "Okay, yep, I'm happy. I'm happy. Like, life is fine." Like, you know, posting positive captions on my Instagram.

John: Yeah, but it was, we had to trust each other to open up about like, "This is honestly what I'm dealing with and how I'm feeling," and like, "Now let's deal with it together," which is like a crazy thing to take on. It's like, well, because sometimes you feel like you need the motivation of someone else. Like I said, it makes me more motivated than I could ever say to be the best version of myself for you. Even if I'm like, "Like, I'm okay like this," you know, like when but when you tell me like, "These things are affecting you or they're affecting my life, and it's affecting you," or whatever, I'm like, "I don't want that for you." So even if I get to a point where I'm like, "Well, I've dealt. I've been living like this, so it's fine." You know, it's not fine, and I don't want you to deal with that. And then once you deal with it too, and you help me deal with it, then I'm like, "Wow, you're free. Like, you can let one of the bags down of your baggage and not pick it up again." And that's the power of the partnership. It's like when you're living for other people, you do so much more versus if you're just living for yourself because it's so easy just if you're living for yourself, it's like, "What do I really need? Not that much." You know, I can just kind of get, you know, keep when I'm living for someone else, like, "I got to show up so much harder," which means not only just like throughout day-to-day life but also like, "I need to handle all my internal shit now so that I can continue to be a better person for her."

Nicole: I'm 100 times better a person with you day in and day out. Like, every day just gets better with you. Like, we have so many deep conversations about growth, about our mental, physical, spiritual, financial growth, everything. And like, I'm a better daughter, I'm a better friend, I'm a better. I truly am, and it's truly because of you.

John: Thanks, baby.

Nicole: But like, and that's how you know when you are in something that is powerful and where you shouldn't settle into a relationship. Like, if you're in a relationship that's bringing up traumas but they're just perpetuating the same fucking dark, ugly circle, get out of that immediately. But if you're in a relationship that brings up traumas and then you start seeing the cycle, but then you're like, "Wait a minute. We're going to break that. We're going to break this fucking cycle right now." Then you know you're in the right thing because it's so empowering, and the beautiful thing.

Nicole: You know, like what you were saying is like you show up as a better partner for John because he's your family. Yeah, and like showing up better for your family, that is like my biggest intention. Like John is my family. He is my number one, and then one day we'll have, you know, more, more like we, you know, start multiplying. And I want to be like the best possible mom. What better motivation is there than that? Than my husband, than my children, than like my children's children, and to be able to create a household that doesn't have to perpetuate negativity and trauma. And like, yes, they're going to have their own trauma, like their own, right. Um, it's what I tell John all the time. I'm like, even if we're perfect, or you know, there's going to be something that Sophia will take with her, but at least we'll know that we gave her way better than a lot of people give their kids, more than what we had ourselves.

John: Right, exactly. And it is possible. Let's see, a lot of people that are going to watch are never going to believe this, but I will tell you, I will swear on anything, on my life, on Nicole's life, on everything, that we do not yell at Sophia, not even one time. Not one time. No calling names, not even raising her voice and yelling at her. Neither of us does it. And the only way that that's possible is through us working on ourselves, through our relationship. And it's a great thing that you can provide to a child, that you can parent in that way where you don't parent with anger. And I don't know very many people that are able to do that, but that's where that deep work of working on yourself in the relationship really does.

Nicole: Yeah, that's what we're hoping to do. 'Cause like, we don't want to, especially like she grew up in such a loud, yelling, abusive home. It's like we can't give that to our kids. Healthy, like there's no reason, unless, but how do we not give that to danger, like a car, right? Get over here, like you know, like that makes sense, right? But like if your kid did something, no. Like I am so, and like even to each other, there's like, I refuse to yell at John, you know.

John: Like will I get elevated? Yes, we've had a little bit of the, we're working.

Nicole: Yeah, we're getting better. Everybody's had a moment, like even when you've had a moment of like, obviously if it's like an extreme issue where you get kind of, and it, but there's a difference between it's happened once or twice versus it happens once or twice a week.

John: Exactly, and other people's households.

Nicole: Exactly, and like I've been in relationships slash have been in households, like grew up in a household that yelling was the norm.

John: Yeah.

Nicole: Yelling is not our norm. Our norm is like, hey.

John: Yeah, tone.

Nicole: Yeah, tone. That's the word. Yeah, hey, tone. You know, I don't appreciate how you spoke to me.

John: And I'm like, the way you spoke to me was a little inappropriate.

Nicole: I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, you're right. That was a little inappropriate. Yeah, that's good. And um, but it's just respect, right? Like I don't ever want to disrespect you because if I disrespect you, I'm disrespecting myself.

John: Yeah, goes back to the we, you being one.

Nicole: Yeah, that's key when you're in a deeply intimate relationship. And like, yes, sex is an intimate thing, but to me, what is more intimate than sharing your deepest, darkest parts of you and someone accepting that? Yeah, like that's way more intimate.

John: Yeah, crazy to me. But then it kind of makes sex, it does.

Nicole: Like it does. But I mean, sex is like a thing, right? And we're talking about like our deepest spiritual self to each other, which is like so much more than just us, you know, wiggling ourselves together. Right? But that's what people think about a lot of times when you say intimacy. They just think that. But it's like, have you told each other your deepest, darkest secret? Have you unpacked your baggage? Have you told each other like the dark and ugly parts of yourself that make you look like a bad person? And then your partner still loves you. Like it's okay, we'll work on this. Like, look, I was a piece of [__] back then.

John: And it's like, well, me too.

Nicole: And it's like, I love you. Yeah, and that's okay. And like now we're better people for it, and we're like growing past that. And no, it is like, and I think the most, like, I mean, our biggest values, and that's like something that's so important to us, is like that we align on our values. But our biggest one is growth. Like number one value is growth. 'Cause if you're not growing, you're dying. We say this, what, like that's all I mean.

John: Yeah, like all the [__] time. Well, if you're someone with a growth mindset, I say my biggest relationship advice is you have to be with someone else with a growth mindset.

Nicole: Like so that we were actually just like going back through some of our old relationships 'cause we were just like, let's talk through like our, you know, chain of who we dated and stuff. Well, we were cleaning out our garage, and we found, we found like old pictures of his first girlfriend in high school, like their prom photos. She's like, walk me through like what were your relationships. And so like, and I had to remember this stuff, which for me, I don't think about it often. So I had like, I was like pulling up LinkedIn, what job did I have, when, when did I, who was I dating at that time, like trying to figure out all the specific one of them.

John: Yeah, I had an ex that I had lived with for a bit. We broke up, and when we broke up, like kind of, we talk about the straw that broke the camel's back, we were arguing, and she goes, "Why can't you just be content? Why can't you just be content with the life we have?" And that'll always live with me. Like, you're like, content with the life we have? No, I want, like, I'm always going to want more. I want us to keep striving for more. I want us to keep being better people. I want us to keep helping more people. I want us to help other people be better people. Like, and that was it. She's like, "Oh, totally understand why that didn't work." 'Cause she just knows like how we are together. She's like, well, like, and John is not one to just like hunker down and like just live the same life over and over. I mean, even recently, you know, we like bought our house like a what, a year and a half ago.

Nicole: Yeah, a year ago.

John: Yeah, and now we're just like going to up and uproot ourselves and go travel. And it's like, you know what, like we were talking about it, and John looks at me, and he says, like, well, look around us, like look at our neighbors, right? Like we have great, beautiful neighbors, like great families, but like, this is, this is what they're doing. And like, we can do this for the next like, you know, 20, 30 years, or we can like, or we can go chase more travel and adventure and chasing more. And then I'm like, yep.

John: I know, which is great because she's along for the ride. If you ever hit me with, "Yeah, it just doesn't work," I think you're right. If you're just a Content One, find yourself a Content One because that works too. But yeah, for us, it's funny you said that because, and that's the biggest thing, is like, if you know that your partner is growing and if you're both growing, then whatever issues you have, you know that you're going to get past because someone who's continually growing... You don't have any hope for someone who's not growing. It's just how they are, and they're always going to be that way. Which again, you should accept a person as how they are, but they should have that idea that they're going to grow. But if you truly want a fulfilled life, yeah, you should strive for some growth. To each their own, but we know you guys are.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, I always tell, because we talk to Sophia about this kind of stuff too, obviously. And I'm like, it's hard work. And then she's like, "Ah, I don't want to do hard work." I'm like, "I get it, but it's the most fulfilling work you'll do." Because the second you get through the hard work, and you feel the peace of really working through something that you've been working on so hard, you want to just keep growing. Yeah, like, and it's Type Two fun.

John: Well, it's like, you know, when you experience that peace of figuring something out, of healing something, you don't want to stop. And like, you know that the sky's the limit. Like, you keep going, and it can keep getting better because you've experienced it keep getting better and better. And so, you know, I think some people might get discouraged by hearing, you know, like, "Work on yourself." A lot of people are like, "I don't want to work," or they've been through a lot of stuff, and they're like, "I had to survive that or get through that." But it's like, you don't know what your life could be if you just keep pushing and you keep growing, and it can exceed even your wildest dreams.

Nicole: Yeah, 100%. It's like, you don't know what you don't know, right? So, you got to go for it. You think you're living your wildest dreams; you don't even... You got to push a little further, and your dreams expand.

John: Yeah, no, you're so right. And like, you are literally, like us as human beings in this life, are capable of anything you set your mind to. Whether it be like technology, finances, or science might be the three things that are standing in your way, but all of those are like things that you can solve. You know, you can make more money to get what you want. It just... Yes, like literally anything you want is possible. And like, just go out and get it. And like, that's one of the most beautiful things that we've found within our relationship is like healing ourselves through this, but then finding the power of abundance within each other. And now we get to propel not only ourselves but we want to be able to propel other people forward as well.

Nicole: As do you. I mean, that's why you do this podcast. It's like you found so much joy and love within your relationship. It's like, well, why not bring other people on this journey? Why am I going to gatekeep this beautiful knowledge that you guys have figured out what works for you guys? Now you're sharing it with the world. And like, well, we went through the messiness of it, right? Like, all that we talk about on here is learned experience. And you know, we definitely read some books that we recommend, and that helps. But we went through the trenches, John and I. And like he said, you know, when you go through that and you get as intimate and deep as we've gotten, and you guys have gotten, you know that you can get through anything that comes your way. And that a lot of people never feel that. Like, they never feel like they have somebody that they can get through anything with.

John: Yeah, and so, well, you should find out. Because if you're with your partner and you don't know if you can get through anything with them, start opening it up, start peeling back the layers, and see if this is the person you can get through anything with. It's so freeing once you can start to really open up your shit and be authentic.

Nicole: Yeah, like, I've had people tell me, you know, "Oh, that would be nice. That must be nice." And it's just like, you can have that. You just got to try. Send it.

John: Just send it. Do it. Just do it. Yeah, Nike. But no, that's true. There were so many things, just like from my previous marriage to that, I had just accepted as norms in the relationship, of just the yelling, and that kind of thing. And even, I remember the first time that Nicole made me see something different was when, uh, when my daughter Sophia came over, and we had these grapes in the freezer that we had put Kool-Aid on, or what, like, you take frozen grapes, and you put the Jell-O packets on them, makes like sour grapes. And then Sophia grabbed it out of the freezer, and she's got the bag, and she tries to open the bag, and just all over the floor, like all these grapes everywhere. And I look at Nicole, and I'm expecting, my reference experience is that she's going to start yelling now, right? Because Sophia just dropped all the grapes all over this floor. And Nicole's just helping her pick them up. And I was like, "Wait a minute, there's something... What's going on here? Why isn't she yelling?" You know, that was just what I was used to. I just, that was my experience. And it's just crazy now, so many days I wake up, and I think it's so... There's just like peace. We're just, I'm just happy to see her, she's happy to see me. There, I don't feel like she's resenting me, I don't feel like she's snipping at me about things, and I don't... Like, it's just, I couldn't have imagined that it was possible to live a life like that. But you know, but yeah, that, but there it is. So, no, peace is possible.

Nicole: Like, when I met John, um, when I was 21 years old, and you know, we're like hanging out, hooking up, and we're in his hot tub, and I was like, "I don't ever want to have kids. I don't ever want to get married." She was totally against the idea of having a family, which is why for a long time, we, I didn't think there was like a future with Sera because she was so gung-ho about ever starting a family. And that was because she didn't want to bring... I was, yeah, I was terrified of that because I knew how detrimental that was to me. I never wanted to wish that on any human being ever again. And then, you know, as the years went by, I was like, "Wait a minute. I literally have the power to control what."

John: I want in my life like I don't have to yell at my children. I don't have to judge my children. I don't have to judge my partner. I don't have to yell at my partner. Like, that doesn't have to be my reality anymore. And then I made that decision, and that's what it is, and that's what I will continue. And then when she realized that she can have peace and her future kids can have peace, she's like, "Hello, John, let's make some babies. We're going to."

Nicole: Want to do that back, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's been, and Nicole, I think you know, you've talked about it before, but like, you had been cheated on, and so that was a lot of trauma that you were carrying. And you know, and it showed up in our relationship, right? And we were able to work through that. But it's just like, I mean, that's just a good example of one of the things that was something that was not processed. That was not, I mean, even what the other day, I was like, "John, how do you like not worry about worrying?" He's like, "What worry? I'm afraid if I stop worrying, the bad thing will happen because I've worried my entire life about things. And so the second I stop, it'll happen, right?" And he's like, and I'm like, logically, I'm like, "No, that's not how it works." Logically, I know the answer. I'm just, I don't even know how those words are coming out. Like, John's like, "I'm overwhelmed." John, over like, "I'm overwhelmed, thankfully."

John: Okay, like, he talked to me about actually, I forgot to tell you about that. I forgot to compliment you on that because I don't know if you realized how good that made me feel that you had solicited my advice on something and wanted to hear my, I did know that you would feel good about that, but I also wanted, yeah, I was out running. I was like, "Yeah, she wants my opinion. She listened to what I had to say." Like, I was like, "But yeah, no, that's meaningful." But yeah, that, I mean, those things that you carry and have to work through, that's, you know, but it's nice to like, be able to ask him that question and, you know, like even though I know the answer, and he actually did give me an answer that I didn't fully dive into and was helpful, what you were talking about earlier. But you know, I never would have been like, "Hey, I'm worried about this worrying about this," you know? And he gave me the capacity to like, talk it all the way through in like a very in-depth way that also made me feel like I could figure out the answer. Because like, it's, you can have the knowledge, you can have the answer, yeah, but until it clicks in your mind, it's, you're not really going to do anything about it. But also, JN is giving you the opportunity to like, bring your, like, you're scared, like in ugly, like crazy, maybe, like all these adjectives that we like tie to women, yeah, like, you know, no, but really. And then he was like, "All right, let's unpack this," right? And I think like, John, you know, has like, in the last few months, has like really opened up to this part. He was like, and specifically around my period, like, and at first, you know, like, you know, the few, uh, the days before my period, he would be like, "Why are you being crazy?" And like, "Oh, not the CW word."

Nicole: You did not use the CW word.

John: Used it a lot.

Nicole: He used it a lot, yeah. And then, and then, DB move, don't use the c-word. And then, you know what I realized is, I'll let you tell it.

John: Well, yeah, I just realized, like, if you're abrasive with it, it doesn't help. And so, uh, yeah, there was like a day, I think, I, she was, yeah, and I was just like, "Babe, you know, I recognize that we're in our luteal phase right now, and like, fully just like," and I was just like, "Yeah, I understand that maybe your emotions and your mind isn't, things probably aren't really making sense, and I totally get it. Like, this is just the phase of, you know, the cycle that we're in together right now, yeah." And she's just like, "Oh, like, thank you so much. We're in it together." Like, yeah, he did that twice in one day. It was the first time he did it, and it fully disarmed her. Like, if you push back and you're like, "You're being crazy," she's like, "Right, if you call a woman crazy, she's like, 'I'll show you crazy. You already call me crazy.'" You, she knows that she's dealing with this. I don't like, make her feel bad about it. Instead, I was just like, "We're dealing with this, and like, we're in it together." But like, as a man, like, I think, like, one of the biggest pieces of advice I can give as a woman within a relationship is like, welcome your woman's crazy, like wholeheartedly welcome her in and give her a hug. Make her should know she's safe. That way, it's happening either way. John has definitely done that. And then it literally disappeared. He was like, "You know, we were driving. I remember we're passing like the Costco on the way to our house, and he, I was like, 'I'm just feeling really sad right now.' And he said, 'I understand why you're feeling sad.' You're like, 'Healed.' I said, I was like, 'Oh, are we feeling sad? Okay.' I was like, 'Cool, we can feel sad, yeah. That makes sense. We can feel sad.' And I was like, 'But you know, let's pull out of it.' But you know, instead of just being like, 'You're sad, like about what? Like, why are you sad? Like, there's nothing to be sad about,' and being dismissive, which is what I used to do because it didn't make sense to me. And the thing is, it's never going to fully make sense to me because I'm a man, she's a woman, and she has emotions that pour through in a totally different way than I do, especially with hormones, right? And we worry about worrying, that's what we do about worrying, 100%, 100%. And like, but then once I related with it, just was like cool with it, just like accepted it, just went away. And literally, when we were having that conversation, you were worrying about worrying about worrying. So was I, was I, was in, and like, realistically, does that make any fucking sense? Absolutely not. But we also know that that's what I'm trying to say. We have the knowledge, but we can't stop the emotion. Like, you're in your head, and like, when your hormones are like going up and down and up and down, and you're just like, "I really like, I can tell him, I literally have said, 'Baby, I've got the wheel again.'" Yeah, she's come back. She's come back, and she's been like, "Oh, like, yeah, she's gone. I've got the wheel again. Like, I'm back in control. Like, I'm logical again." I'm like, "Oh, there you are. All right, we can like." But if you fight the little Gremlin in all women, yeah, then it's only going to multiplies, yeah. And like, you don't want to multiply that Gremlin. I think, I think a woman's greatest fear.

John: Is that if he really knew how crazy I was, if he really knew how crazy I was, then he would not love me. And I think that's why also that when it comes out and it's responded to in a negative way, it's a reinforcement of that fear of like, "Oh, see, I knew it." And he doesn't even know I'm holding back all the stuff that's really my said all these things. And so it's like he's getting upset at this little, just seeing the tail of the demon. Wait till he sees the whole thing. But yeah, but I think that's the thing, and that's why, as a man, like if you can show a woman that no, there's nothing you're going to show me that is going to fade. Like, I am going to love you no matter what. Beautiful like rock and like in the waves of a woman's emotions. Like, uh, it was one of our friends said that like, uh, Kim and Ardam, and she like told Ardam that he was like The Rock in her life, and she was like the ocean. And I, and he's telling me this with like tears in his eyes. I'm like, "Oh, this is like the sweetest thing." And Ardam is like this Russian dude that has had his heart fully broken open as well. And like, and that's the beauty about being again, like going back to like, you know, a modern traditional relationship is that like as a man you should open up your heart to your woman. And that's what a true beautiful feminine woman will bring to you. She will crack your heart open and like let you flourish by and then also keep you strong all at the same time. You protector heart, yeah, not just crack, you're cracking open, but like you're cracking it open, and then you're like you can grow. Well, she'll love you even more like 'cause you're showing her all of you. Like, yeah, and then when you love her when she shows you all, it just creates this beautiful connection. Yeah, yeah. Don't be mean, like when a girl's showing her like her like, you know, and just, I get it though, like it doesn't make sense at first, and you're like, "Holy shit, you're not." But we don't want you to make sense of it. We just want you to, you don't have to make sense of it, and you never will. So it's never, it's not about worry about it doesn't make sense to you. Like, right, exactly. She's like, "I'm dealing with this too. Like, I don't make sense to myself right now." We all don't know. No one knows what's going on, but at least we're in it together. Yeah, hold your hand. Yeah, hold your hand. See, and like, said that can like fix it. It almost always does. That's realizing like you see it coming, and I'm just like, "Okay, we're in this together." And she's like, "Well, I guess I don't even know why." Great, right? You confused the gremlin in there. It's like, "What? We were gonna fight. We were ready." Yeah, they were like, "We're ready, crazy." And then you're like, "Oh no, never mind. What do we want for lunch? I'm better now." Yeah, so funny 'cause it's, it's so many times, and and I got tripped up with this initially in our relationship too until I figured out that it's like she, she really only cares. It's not even about being right. It's not even about what happened. It's about knowing that as a man, you care about how she feels. You care. That's it. It's just that simple. It's like then the conversation doesn't even have to go through and hash it all out logically and what happened and what this. It's just, just care about how she feels. It doesn't matter why she feels the way. That's what I used to always get tripped up on like why. Let's fix it. It doesn't make sense for her to feel like, or as a man, you feel like less than. Right, you're like, "Well, now I'm not. You're like attacking me, and I feel like whatever I do is not good enough and blah blah blah blah blah." And it's like, "Nope, I'm not saying any of that. Like, I love you. I think the world of you. Literally, I'm also feeling XYZ." And like, don't get defensive about it. Like, just acknowledge it, hold space for it, and then oop, let it pass. It's literally, it's not about you. It's about the gremlin. Yeah, it's about the gremlin. Like, that's what you got to think. It's not, no. Have you named it?

Nicole: Yeah, it's Brisen.

John: Bris? Your voice.

Nicole: Bris. Yeah, Bris. Here, devil. I named it one time. Oh shit, Brisa's here. Like, this is the gremlin. I know. I remember one time when like when we were really getting into some deep stuff, and Nicole was just screaming, right? And she was like, "You hate me now."

John: And I was like, "No, I love you." Like, it was actually, it was one of the most, even though she was screaming at him, I was just screaming because I had all this built-up like toddler energy. I don't even know where it came from, but I was just like, I was like the David goes to the dentist where he all of a sudden he's like, that was me. I was just, ra, like I wasn't yelling at John. He was just sitting next to me through it. And uh, but yeah, but it's, you know, I think it's important that you see that he wanted to see it. I'm like, "Go away. We can be alone in the darkness." Yeah, it's like, it's like it's coming. It's like it's like the full moon is coming, and she's like, "No, you can't be here." Literally, "I'm going to the bathroom, and you, I'm going to clock the door." I'm like, "No, I need to see the." He, it's fine. I'm like, "No, it's not. Save yourself." So, but one thing that like, you know, when John like saw my teeth fully come out, he was like, "I actually love you more for it." I'm glad to know that there's like a gnarly little tough animal in there. Primal. You'll always be like, "Oh, I'm just a girl. I'm just a girl." And I'm like, "All right, well, we don't want just a girl like protecting our kids if I'm not around." So then, you know, she showed her teeth a few times, and I'm like, "Oh no, she's not just a girl. She's got some not fighting her. She's a, what is it, here, here in there." No, it's so true though. But that's why, like, opening up and putting it all on the table, you get closer to your partner. You feel their love deeper than you've ever felt it 'cause they're seeing all sides of you. You're like, "They love me for me 'cause I've shown them the good, the bad, the ugly. Showed them everything, and they're still here, and we'll get through whatever." And you know, that's important. And and I found just with Nicole helping me to heal all the parts of me that like that I've just become a lot more loving person to everyone. I show up better with every person that I'm interacting with, with Sophia, you know, just because I don't have that chip on my shoulder anymore. And you know, and because I.

Nicole: I have the love flowing through me that I can share with everyone. Well, if you're being truly authentic with your partner, who's like your everything, right? Like you're with them more than anyone else, and if the authenticity is there, then it's going to just be you're just being authentic in general, and the world gets that version of you, which is what the world needs.

Nicole: Exactly, and you should always want to treat your partner with the utmost respect, love, and, you know, put your partner on a pedestal and shower them with love. Obviously, we make mistakes and we do things that are out of pocket, you know, from time to time, but don't ever let that be the norm. I pride myself on knowing I don't call John names. There was once that he did something really messed up, and I called him names, and he kind of deserved it. Then I was like, but now I'm going back, literally once in the entirety of our relationship that I've ever called him names. And then I went back to him, and I was like, you know what, I'm sorry. I got back into my integrity of not going to disrespect you like that, and I'm going to love you, cherish you, and worship you because if I worship him, he worships me. How good does that feel to be the god and goddess in each other's lives?

Nicole: You realize you don't look at how your partner's showing up; you just focus on showing up the best way possible. Right, like if I'm like, oh, she's not doing this, or she's not doing that, that's going to perpetuate. But if I'm just like, well, how can I show up for her right now? What might she need? What could I do here, exactly? And if I just do that constantly, and you, I mean, whether you're in a relationship or not, just see what you can do for the world, and the world just pours it back into you.

John: If I'm 100% looking out for Nicole and not myself, and she's 100% looking out for me, if you have that, then you're getting better taken care of than you would take care of yourself. With yourself, you can just kind of sit, eat a bag of chips, not work out, maybe drink, go party, do all these things that are horrible on yourselves. Versus with him, I'm like, oh, are we drinking enough water? John, have you drunk your water today? Oh, are you watching our diets, and what did you eat today? John, you haven't eaten any breakfast yet; you need to eat; you need some protein. Honestly, being, and then we fall off it where we start focusing on, oh, you're not doing this, or you're not doing this, and then that perpetuates, and it just like things start to fall apart. But then if we jump back into it, it's like, how can I show up? What do you need, or what can I do for you? Then we just flourish, and it's, we have so much control over it. And I mean, obviously, we falter, right? We're human; we're living the human experience. But it is really cool when you recognize that how much your effort just comes back to you in life, and it's in everything, in every relationship, and all the work you do, and everything. If you go out and just put it in, yeah, everything comes back in spades.

Nicole: That's true. Law of Attraction, baby.

John: Yeah, I've been really trying to live the pronoia since the...

Nicole: Yeah, it makes a huge difference, just seeing the positive in everything.

John: Yeah, and you don't have to put a label on like everything's positive.

Nicole: Right, things are shitty. No, but sometimes shit hurts and sucks, but it's all teaching you lessons; it's all making you a better version of yourself. It's all happening as it's supposed to. But if you didn't have the shit, what are you going to appreciate? You don't appreciate the good stuff. Literally, no way that you can appreciate the love and the light that you have in your life. You had to go through ugly times in your childhood, as did I, to be able to really appreciate this, or then I would just be taking this for granted, and honestly, it wouldn't mean as much to us.

John: No, it would be like, oh, this is just the norm. It would be as if, you know, having eggs in the morning, which actually eggs in the morning really, but you know, like something that trivial, I just wouldn't appreciate it. It's not like, oh, I'm having Wagyu instead. We're like, wow, this is sacred because we had to go through shit where we didn't have this, or like our past traumas, we might not have known this type of relationship was possible, and now we're like, oh wow, it is possible, and we appreciate it so much more.

John: That's true. That's so true. Alright, well, I think we're, we hit the hour again. See, I told you it goes fast.

Nicole: See, it goes pretty fast, though. But, uh, yeah, thanks for joining us. Wonderful to have you guys on here, and I'm sure we'll have you on again for sure.

John: So, yeah, I mean, this is fun, so anytime. Our first podcast.

Nicole: Yeah, congrats, you guys. Guys did great.

John: Alright, well, uh, yeah, make sure you tune in next time. Uh, if you haven't already, give us a, you know, a nice review, and uh, we like...

Nicole: And subscribe. That's right.

John: Yeah, like and subscribe. We got the clips on Instagram if you don't have time for the whole episode. And if you got a question for us, email us at betterthanperfectpodcast@gmail.com, and we will see you next week.

Nicole: Take care. No way.