John: You can't allow your fears to dictate your life. Recently, I realized I can't live like this, but I'm doing it out of fear. It's clouding my judgment. Just because he did this one thing, he must secretly be bad or something. And even the guys right in the comments, they're being like, "I got manipulated one time." I'm not even saying that they didn't ever get manipulated by a woman crying. Allowing that situation to dictate the rest of your life is not going to get you the relationship that you want. And if you get lucky like me and you still get the relationship you want, you might be sabotaging it beyond the... We discover through our flaws, we complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault. We find no way. Alright, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole: It is permanently ingrained in your brain. So, what's been going on? Catch up. I mean, we're watching The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I got John watching it with me. We just watched the first episode though, so we're not super far in. But I think the whole thing is fake and staged.

John: Well, I don't really know much about the Mormon community. Nicole knows way more than me. And she thinks it's not legitimate. I feel they would just have been excommunicated immediately for, you know, less serious offenses. People get excommunicated. Especially in Utah. Like, there are Utah Mormons and California Mormons, and they're different. But Utah Mormons, I feel like, you're just... You're not talking to your family anymore. You're done.

Nicole: So, I don't know either. But I agree with you that some of the stuff they're doing, just based on what you've told me about the Mormon community and just like churches, how they can be strict in general, that probably wouldn't be very good. The things that they're doing, there's not really much in terms of relationship dynamics.

John: Surprisingly, well, I think it goes by each person or something. I don't know because the first one was all about the Taylor girl's story. So maybe we'll have... We need to watch more obviously, but maybe they're about each wife and what they're going through.

Nicole: I don't know. When's the new season of Love is Blind coming out? That should be coming out soon. We got to do like a live stream or something.

John: Yeah, we should. That's actually not a bad idea. But I was contemplating today's topic being something about swinging because that's like all they seem to be talking about. I didn't even know there was a scandal thing or like soft swinging. What even is that? I didn't know that Mormon people would be swinging like that. Definitely seems against the rules.

Nicole: Yeah, I don't know. That's all I've been seeing mostly on TikTok and stuff like that, about the swinging and people talking about the episodes. But I'm trying not to get any spoilers. Seems like there's a lot of crazy episodes at some point talking about open relationships or like non-exclusivity. And I think we talked a little bit in one of them.

John: I can't remember what the main topic was, but I always, I mean, I get a lot of times from guys I'm coaching, I'm always like, "Nope, don't do it. It's not a smart idea."

Nicole: Well, I mean, we saw in the first episode, right, that the girl caught feelings for one of the other guys. Because I do feel like a lot of times it's the guys like, "Okay, yeah, I get to sleep with other people." And a lot of guys want to arrange it and do arrange it so that it's one way open for them, which again, I tell them not to do because it's not a good idea either. Right? Because, you know, women will share a high-value man, a valuable guy. They will, rather than...

John: But it's not... A woman doesn't respect herself.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, a large percentage of women that you wouldn't expect would, under the right circumstances. But at the same time, what I always tell guys is like, it's not going to... You're not going to be serving her very well. Like, you know what I'm saying? She's not going to be happy about it.

John: Right. It's not like you're not actually looking out for her best interest. So again, part of being a leader, the reason why you're given the authority to lead is because you're putting other people before you. You're putting her before you. And so if you're not doing that, then you don't really have the respect or authority to lead at that point. So you're putting yourself into a not-good situation.

Nicole: Well, I would say though that women, the only women who are willing to share a man, it's not because of the man. It's because of the other things that he provides, and not even like emotionally. Like, I can't see any woman who respects herself and loves a man sharing him with another woman. Genuinely loves.

John: Yeah, for sure. Like, I can see where, like, billionaires or whatever, who are like, "Look, I'm going to sleep with other people," and a woman being like, "Okay, well, I want to live this lifestyle," being like, "Okay, do whatever you want." You know what I mean?

Nicole: Yeah, that's the logical though, right? Like, there are many circumstances where a woman becomes infatuated with a man, and then she's, you know, willing to get whatever amount of his time that she can get.

John: Right. But also, too, that still makes me feel like she doesn't respect herself, though. Right? Because it's like, yeah, you have to... Even if that is true, and she's like letting herself be walked all over because she loves this man so much, she doesn't respect herself. And in turn, he's not going to respect her as much, and that's also probably why he's doing it, some of it.

Nicole: Exactly. Because she doesn't respect herself.

John: Yeah. But yeah, it's... I agree with you, though. It's never a good idea if you want a legitimate relationship with somebody. It doesn't end well. It's what I always tell them. It's like, there's no happy ending to this situation. You can't have deep intimacy.

Nicole: Right. Exactly. Like, at all. Nobody can. She can't with you because she knows you're out doing something else. You can't with her because you're spreading yourself thin with all these other people. Like, you're not going to ever have that deep, deep connection that a lot of people want, even if they say that they don't.

John: Right. Exactly. But I guess that can segue a little bit into what today's topic is, and, you know, based on the things that we've been going through the past week, mostly me figuring out my issues and my fears and confronting that, and then seeing some of the videos that you've actually posted on your personal Bulldog Mindset account. And the one I'm specifically thinking of is the one where you said that if a man doesn't comfort a woman that's crying, he's not...

John: A good man, right and just, there's like 400 comments there. That many, are you looking at? There's like 4K. It's on TikTok. There's like 400, 40 something, but I'm like a good, maybe not 400, but a good like 350 of them, yeah, are stories of women saying they came to their husband or their boyfriend crying and just all these really sad ways that he responded. And one person actually said, you know, a dismissive avoidant person, they just genuinely don't know how to comfort people sometimes, and they don't like, they weren't showed how to be vulnerable and how to do things the right way, and that's also true. But a lot of these men are not, you know, in that severe of a situation. Some of them are because men, typically like you said, are avoidant, and women are, uh, what's the other one? Anxious, anxious, yeah. So, you know, that does play into it. I'm not saying it doesn't, but when I saw that comment, I had to like it too because that's what I had been going through, right? Like, I was so guarded and like avoidant and like didn't know how to be vulnerable or it didn't feel comfortable, or it felt like scary. I had this fear, right, that if I didn't protect myself, then nobody would, or, you know, then I would lose the ability to do that, you know. It was a fear, it was a fear at the end of the day.

Nicole: And so, I realized too that the other part of the comments were men being like, no, I don't care if a woman cries, she's not going to manipulate me, and it was all about being manipulated by the tears. And I was just like, this is just fear, right? Like, keeping us apart from each other, right? Like, we're supposed to need each other. Like, I know men don't like to say they need women, and I know women don't like to say they need men, but we do. Like, it is the harmony, it is the balance, it is the yin and the yang. And I understand that it's scary, and people have their own, every single person has an example of something they went through that caused a fear in them in a relationship, every single person. So, it's not like their fears aren't legitimate, right? But at the same time, you can't allow your fears to dictate your life, right? And I also did this, how I just described, but also, I had been cheated on and betrayed, you know, in that way by two people, actually, in my situation. And I did allow it to also, you know, kind of create this anger in me, yeah, or this fear, right? Like, and so, I'm coming here, laying out my own fears and my own mess that I made for myself to say, though, that recently, I realized I can't like live like this. I can't always defend myself, and I don't need to, but I'm doing it out of fear, like, and it's clouding my judgment of you because I'm so afraid that I'll do what a lot of people do and be like, oh well, he did this, so this, he must be doing this bad thing, or like just because he did this one thing, he must secretly be bad or something. Or, and even like the guys, right, in the comments are being like, I got manipulated one time. I'm not even saying that they didn't ever get manipulated by a woman crying. I know that there are women who are out there doing that, but allowing that situation to dictate the rest of your life or the rest of the way you're going to interact with women is not going to get you the relationship that you want. And if you get lucky like me and you still get the relationship you want, you might be sabotaging it, right? And like I said, it's not just a guy thing, women are doing this as well too because even though there were tons of really sad comments, I'm not even saying that those women didn't do anything wrong on their side of the street, yeah, but it is still sad to see all of these women with all these stories being like, I was crying, you know, in front of my husband, and he just said suck it up, or, you know, you can go on the, if you look at John's Instagram, it's one of or TikTok, it's one of the popular videos that got a lot of views, you could go and see. But it just made me realize because I was going through it recently and just seeing everybody in the comments, right, just living out of fear, and even though the women, I get their side because they're like, I put myself out there, and I got hurt. And I see the guys being like, I, you know, validated her emotions, and then she manipulated me. Like, I can understand why you're afraid, but at the same time, you'll never get the closeness, you'll never get the intimacy, you, you'll never get the love that someone is trying to give you if you're living from this place of fear. And so, I don't know exactly where to go. I guess we could just, well, yeah, I've got a few, dive more into that, yeah.

John: That was the longest intro for a topic I think ever. I mean, it wasn't, I'm not, it was a good intro, but also, like, what is the topic about? And then, like, you know, you got to find out, so you got to listen to find out, right? But no, a podcast, you got to listen. I'm sorry, not sorry. No, no, it was good, it was good, it was good. But yeah, so, I mean, a couple of things that I was thinking about is, well, one of them is that because I think it's the antithesis to this is playing full out, right, which we talked about, about being one, but like going all in, you know, and that's what we're afraid of, right? But if I look back at my life, I don't have a lot of regrets in life, but, and I think most people would find a similar thing, but the things that I do regret in life are things like, I wish in that race, I would have pushed a little harder or gave it my all or not quit at my 36 or whatever, like, I wish I would have just pushed a little harder and kept going, like, put it all in. Those are the regrets I have in life, is anywhere where I was like, I wish I would have just did a little bit more, pushed more, you know, gave everything that I had. Those are the regrets that people have in life. And that's one of the reasons why, just in general, you should go all in on whatever you're doing in life, 'cause you will regret not doing that. And one thing that it reminds me too is when I was little, maybe, I don't know, like 10 or 12, somewhere around there, and I was living in South Carolina, there was this, there was this woods that we used to play in, kids, right? And there's this huge ditch, right, in order to get there, sometimes there would be a board across it, so you could cross it into the woods, sometimes there wouldn't be. And when there wasn't, you had to jump, jump the ditch, and it was a good, you know, 10-foot span you had to jump. It was just jumpable, right, if you put, if you ran as fast as you could, and you jumped as hard as you could, you could just barely make it to the other side. But it was a deep ditch, it was like an 8-foot fall if you missed it, right.

John: So, I remember as a kid, I remember trying to jump the ditch. And you see that ditch, and you're scared, right? And so, you're running as fast as you can, right? And then, for some reason, instinctually, as you're getting close to that ditch, instead of continuing to run as fast as you can, you slow down, and then you jump, and you fall in, right? You fall in the mud, right? But if you just go all the way, then you don't get hurt; you make it to the other end. And I think with a lot of things in relationships, what people do is that they have that fear, and instead of going all in, right? Instead of saying, "I'm just going to go full into this 100%," they go 90%. And 90% is the worst percent because that's where you fall into the pit. If you go zero or 10%, right, even if, you know, when I was a kid, sometimes you would see someone go and run, and they'd be running as fast as they could, but then about 5 feet before, they'd slow down and they'd stop completely, and they don't fall in the pit. It's only the people who give it 90% that fall in and get hurt. And so, a lot of times, people have life experience where they're like, "Well, I gave it, I went," and that's how I got hurt. And many times, what's happened is that they're recounting the story from going 90% instead of 100%. I'm not saying that you can't get hurt at 100%, but your likelihood is much less, right? You're creating scenarios where you're going to definitely get hurt when you're at 90% because that's the formula for getting hurt every single time. So, you have to go 100% full into things and let go of that fear because the fear is the thing that actually ends up hurting you. And we call it self-sabotage, that's what we call it, but that's what it is, you know?

Nicole: Well, I actually have a John analogy too, to go with yours. So, our daughter got hurt dancing, right? She loves to dance, yeah, and she's a little afraid to do the move that hurt her, right? Which is natural, like she got hurt really bad; she was on crutches, yeah. But at the same time, if she allowed that to never let her dance again, something that she really loved to do, which you and I both know she's not going to do that, right? Or, and I know that one day she will even do the move that hurt her because she loves the dancing part so much, right? Like she learned how to better handle it, how to maybe like notice within her body like, "I'm pushing it too far now." So, she learned from this experience, but it's not going to keep her from never doing it again because she loves that thing, right?

John: Yeah.

Nicole: So, if you love the person you're with, and even if in the past other people hurt you, and they did these things, you learned something from that, right? But you shouldn't be allowing that to keep you from fully investing in the thing that you love, right? And that's also what I was subconsciously doing to you, right? Like, I had these fears that like, I was like, "I'm at 100, like I'm fully invested, like look at all these things," but there was this subconscious part, like you said, that was keeping me at 90, and that part was actually, like you said, I was like falling in the pit, and I was like, "Well, what's going on?" You know? But it's easier to view it in a way of something that you love because, like, okay, at the end of the day, I'm not going to jump out of an airplane. I don't want to do that; that risk is not worth it to me, right? But being with the person I love or doing something that I love, or, you know, things like that, that's worth it to me. And so, if a relationship, if you feel like your relationship's not worth that to you, yeah, then that's a whole another thing that you should probably think about because it should be like your relationship should make you want to confront your fears and not allow that to put turmoil in your relationship. Like, things are going to happen. I'm not saying we're not ever going to have a problem ever again, but me recognizing the fear and how it was dictating my life and what it was doing to keep me from being as close to you as possible, that was worth recognizing, and it's worth throwing out the window because there's a part of me now that's like, okay, well, I obviously know how to protect myself. I was doing that even when I didn't know that, but I don't need to do that. Like, I don't need to have this fear, and even though these things have happened to me before, and I've been in these situations, which is what caused the fear, right? I get to choose whether I live from that fear and allow it to dictate my life or not. And so, if you've survived being manipulated by a woman crying and you survived a man laughing at your vulnerability, you know that you can survive it again. And hopefully, you don't have to do that, but with the right person, you won't. But you can't just treat everybody like they're going to do the same thing to you because you'll keep living the same scared, closed-off way. And so, what if they do, you know? One thing, it's kind of interesting when drunk drivers get into car accidents, a lot of times, in many cases, the actual drunk driver, the person who's drunk, survives, and the other people die. And the reason why is because the drunk person doesn't brace for impact; they don't have their reactions are not fast enough, so they're loose, they're limber, they're like. So, when you try to protect yourself, you hurt yourself. We have this illusion thinking that we can protect ourselves emotionally; we cannot protect ourselves emotionally. It's not possible to do; we harm ourselves by doing it. But everyone tends to think that, most people tend to think that, right? But when we let go of that, then we're actually, it's even just like we were talking about before the podcast about the guy that messaged me, and he's like, "F you, you," you know, I won't repeat the words, but, you know, a not-so-good terminology for a gay man, you know? You can call me a lot of stuff, right? And I respond to him without defending myself, without trying to protect myself, just with some indifference and just compassion, and I converted him into a friend. I just had a chat with him, you know, last week on a Skype call, and he wants to help me. And I wouldn't believe it unless I heard the voice messages that they were sending back and forth, but yeah. But the point is, it's like, that's what happens when you don't try and protect yourself, right? Because when you do that, you hurt yourself, just like we were talking about, I think, what, last week, we're talking about the Hedgehog, right? It's like, yeah, you know, it's the same thing. But it comes from fear, right? And when we have the fear, we think that, you know, and just like you said, with the guys that are worried about a woman.

John: Manipulating them, then let them manipulate you. Then you know, you can assess that, right? You will be able to figure it out. It's just like I used to say, because guys used to always tell me, "Oh, what if a woman uses me for dinner for a date?" You know, I'm like, "So?" I'll still go out with the girl, and then she could use me for dinner. I don't care. Like, it's like I have more money. Like, she'd be stupid to do it, right? Because you're missing out on the right exactly. So, and you're going to just burn me, and then I'm never going to like you. No chance with me now. If you want to do that, go ahead. So, I'm going to allow people to, if they want to do something nasty, I'll allow them to do it. It's fine. I'll survive. I'll be fine. I'm not going to let it change me and make me try to protect myself and not live full out in life, right? Whatever it is, if I'm going into it, I'm going into it 100%. But that's the thing. So, I think a lot of guys are afraid of that.

Nicole: And they're afraid that they're going to get used or manipulated, and you have to just say whatever happens is going to happen. But I'm not going to change who I am, right? It used to be, you know, the same thing I used to tell guys all the time is about how I'm not going to allow who someone else is to define who I am, right? So, if someone disrespects me, I'm not going to disrespect them back because that now I'm letting them change me, right? And so, yeah, so that's the thing that guys have to keep in mind is that no, it doesn't matter. Like, yeah, maybe some women could use it to manipulate, but in many cases, also when someone is crying or they're upset or they're being vulnerable, you can tell, first of all, what genuine vulnerability is. But in that case, even if someone is trying to manipulate you, it probably does mean that they are trying to get empathy or like they're in a situation that they do need something, you know what I'm saying? So, just ignoring them or acting hostile is not the answer, especially when you're doing it from a protection standpoint, then it's not the right answer.

John: Right, yeah. And I think what you said actually is good for both men and women, focusing on yourself and who you are.

Nicole: Yeah, because I feel like that's also what kind of like light bulb went off in my head when we were having our conversation. And like I've mentioned before, like everybody has to kind of figure it out on their own, no matter what anybody says, including me right now or you. It might not resonate with them and really spark the change. But I think instead of both men and women focusing on being so independent and not needing each other, instead focus on letting your ego go and only focus on what you can control, which is you. Like how you act and how you present yourself. And actually, like if you're on our TikTok, I did a longer video about a lady who, you know, or trying someone pretending to be a lady, I don't know, but how she was calling us like misogynistic and things like that when we were literally just talking about if you want to be a feminine woman, be a feminine woman, no matter what anybody says, which is essentially what we're talking about again now, which brought it up. And it's just like people, especially on the internet, think that, "Oh, you're like telling me what to do." They're in this fear, right? They're afraid of people even saying their own opinion. And that's really how the whole world has gotten, right? Like if you read Brené Brown, she, I think it's "Daring Greatly" is the book, she talks about how if you have differing opinions now, you're the enemy.

John: That's how everybody has turned into, right? Like, people used to be able to have opposing opinions and still be cordial towards each other, and that's completely gone out the window. Or like the person in our comments, I did a video, they like blow things out of proportion and try to make it into this damaging thing, yeah, and trying to act like we're hurting people. But really, it's just our opinion. And like we're saying now, like focus on who you want to be, and it doesn't matter if someone doesn't agree with your opinion. That shouldn't matter. It matters if they treat you poorly, telling you their opinion, right? Or attack you. You can choose not to interact with that person. But at the end of the day, like we've just got so angry with each other. Like I've said in multiple episodes, men and women just are so against each other, right? And they're going more and more towards being independent when really we should just be focusing on ourselves internally rather than, "I can live without you. I can live without you," right? Because we don't want to live like that. Like people who have allowed the fear and the hurt to totally consume them do because they just don't see a way out. But you do have a way out. You can change how you view your hurt and your fear to empower you rather than to make you hide in your shell and keep the world away from you.

John: And here's a big hack for it. I think you can replace fear with curiosity, right? Because it's the same thing. Like you said about people can't hold different opinions, or you know, it's like they're the enemy. Instead of reacting the way that you should react, which is say, "Oh, that's interesting. Why do you think that? Or what makes you think that?" Right? And then, but unfortunately, like you have to dig a little deeper because most people's reaction will be to explain why they think that based on what someone else told them. It's like, "No, no, no. Why do you think that? I don't want to know what you heard. I want to know what you think," right? And but replacing fear with curiosity is good in a relationship when instead of the fear response like, "Okay, I wonder what is going on here? I wonder what this person thinks. What are they right?" Many times we can replace a negative with curiosity instead. And then when you come with curiosity, genuine curiosity, you're met in a lot more less hostile fashion too, right? Because somebody will be a lot more receptive when you're genuinely curious. But, uh, but yeah, it has come down to that. It's kind of funny too because, you know, you were saying, did you see the response I replied to someone who commented on our YouTube video episode about her husband? They wanted your opinion, right?

Nicole: Yeah, I saw that one about being vulnerable was what it was. And I think, um, yeah, well anyway, I was going to read it, but yeah, but it is an issue. But one of the things I talked about that, and I think that it's worth mentioning too for some of the women that are afraid of being vulnerable because they've had negative reactions, is that what I had told her was essentially that two things. Main things, which is one is that not always because you're thinking that you're being vulnerable, are you truly being vulnerable. Usually...

John: You need to start off by being vulnerable about something that is actually damaging to you right now, not something that you want a reaction from someone else. When you're coming to someone and telling them that you're feeling stressed, that might seem like you're being vulnerable, but you're not really hitting at the real fear, the real thing that is the underlying issue that makes you soft. And then the second thing is that you might have to do that multiple times to build the trust because a lot of times you might receive a negative reaction.

John: Also, if you have not been vulnerable to a man and have been harsh to him, and then you start being vulnerable, he may react in anger to your vulnerability. This is because he has all this stuff he's been pushing down for such a long time that now it's coming out because he does feel safe, because he does feel relieved. It shouldn't be coming out that way, but sometimes it does. And if you can still be vulnerable through that, which is obviously a very difficult thing to do, and come out the other side of it, now you've really created the trust that will allow him to start responding to your vulnerability in the way that you want to be responded to.

Nicole: I just wanted to add a little example. Like, if you're saying, "I'm stressed," and that's not really vulnerable, the underneath of that might be like, "I'm really stressed because I'm not getting all these things done, and it makes me feel bad about myself, and I feel like I'm worthless when I don't get my work done." That's being vulnerable. You're right. So, like, if you forget that part, then you're missing all of the actual, you know, which is scary because you're like, "I don't want to admit that I feel worthless." But if that's what you feel, you're not always going to feel that way. Be honest. The more you talk about it, the less you'll actually feel that because you're also talking with someone that you care about, and they're going to be like, "That's not how you determine your worth." And then eventually, you will believe those things because you're actually talking about your deep underlying fears or whatever you have, and you'll feel better about those things.

Nicole: Another thing I wanted to add is that I think a lot of people are just acting in their human response to fear, which is fight or flight. Those are our human responses, but you are feeding into the fear. That's why, too, if you don't come from a vulnerable place and just expose the fear right away, you either fall into fight or flight, or the freeze. A lot of guys do the freeze where they're just like, a lot of women were talking about in the comments, like, "I started crying, and you just stared at me." That's the freeze. Like, he's afraid, you're afraid, there's just all this fear, and everybody's reacting differently. A lot of people do react to their fear with fighting. It's exactly not like physical fighting, but that's why when you get into a vulnerable conversation, or you think you're being vulnerable where you're like, "I'm stressed," and the guy's like, "Just get over it," then now you're in fight mode because you're like, "I thought I was being vulnerable, and now he's meeting me with this."

John: So, you go into fight, and a lot of people go into fight because they're hurt, and they'll just go straight to like, "You hurt me, you did all these things," because that's easier to do than being like, "Here's my fear." It's easier to attack and be like, "You did this," than to be like, "I'm feeling this, and it's very like, I feel naked saying this to you right now." I get that it's scary, but like you've said in other episodes, you take all of the things that can be held against you out of it when you just upfront say it and you own it.

John: And check this out, in that instance where you say, "I'm feeling stressed," which again, you're not saying the full vulnerability, but you think you're being vulnerable. Maybe, and then he says, "Well, just suck it up or just get over it," and now you have a negative reaction to that. Were you really even trying to be vulnerable, or were you just wanting to, you know what I mean? To be truly vulnerable means to be truly vulnerable. It means to lay it out there. It means that when you get a negative reaction from your vulnerability, you don't then turn into fight mode because that means that you were never really authentically trying to be vulnerable from the first place. You know what I mean? And he just sniffed it out and just called you on it, and now you're upset because, like, you weren't. The intent wasn't really there. Your heart wasn't fully into it. You're like, "I'm going to try to be vulnerable 90%, and if I get a negative reaction, I'm going to fuck his shit up." That's what, like, I'm just waiting for him. If you don't react the way that I expect you to react, I'm going be all over your ass. That's what was really going on mentally.

John: Like a full breakdown, a full, like, you know, completely down on your knees, like, "I'm going to be vulnerable." There's no backup plan. There's just, "This is how I am raw." And he says, "You need to just suck it up or get over it," and then your reaction becomes, "Wow, that really hurts my feelings," and, "I really am sad about that," or whatever is the true authentic vulnerable thing, not the, "And that's why." And again, I could flip it and put on men the same thing when in a different type of scenario, but it comes from that 90%, not really being in that right. It's like testing it to see if it works. It's the same thing with guys all the time when they're testing to see whether this is going to work, and if it's not going to work, then they have the backup plan. The normal reaction is like, "Oh, I'm going to validate her emotions, but if she doesn't immediately turn around and is happy about it, then go back, fuck that." She was like, "Yeah, like, I'm going to let her know that I just tried to validate her emotions, and she's a stupid bitch." You know, it's like, you're ready holding that. That means you're not really actually there. You're not really actually doing the thing. So, I mean, I agree with you, and you explaining that, I can see where men get.

Nicole: I'm confused if someone's like, "I'm stressed," and then he's like, "Get over it." Because if you just say, "I'm stressed," I mean, he really shouldn't say just "get over it" anyway. But it seems like you're trying to figure out a way to just get unstressed, and you're not actually trying to have a deep emotional conversation.

Nicole: You didn't set the emotions by just being like, "I'm stressed," and I'm trying to be vulnerable with you, right? Like, to set him up for a deep emotional conversation would be to say, "I'm stressed because I'm not getting the things done, and it makes me feel bad about myself, and that makes my self-esteem go down, or my self-worth, or whatever." You know, that is a way to open up the conversation. And if he still says, "Suck it up and get over it," yeah, then you can be like, "That really hurt. Like, I'm trying to be vulnerable with you and really talk about this, and it hurt to feel like you're kind of dismissing it with what you're saying." And if he still is like, "Just get over it," then you need to probably end the conversation at that point.

Nicole: Yeah, and it could be like you said, that he's just had to repress his own stuff for a while, and maybe he will eventually get over it. But I did want to ask you because some women said that, and women do this to men as well too. So, I'm not saying it just goes one way. But if someone is trying to be vulnerable and is actually truly being vulnerable, and those things get held against them, or they're not ever met, no matter how long the time's gone on, with someone trying to actually empathize with them, what do you think should happen? Like, what should they do in that case? A lot of women were like, "I'm vulnerable, and he just uses it against me later." It feels like if you say that, then you're not vulnerable, right? Not truly at the bottom vulnerable, right? Because again, it's like the mount. Again, I'm not saying that it's not necessarily correct. I'm saying the thinking that you would say that and put it into a comment means that probably initially, the initial vulnerability wasn't all in, 100% vulnerable, right? Because it was a like, "Let me see what he does, but I expect already that he's not going to respond to this correctly."

Nicole: Right. When you have that expectation on someone ahead of time, then it's not good because, again, I think part of it is, is just like you said, it's about focusing on yourself. It doesn't really matter how he responds. You have a certain amount of pride in yourself in being that I don't allow people to not allow me to be vulnerable. I'm going to be myself and who I am and who I want to express myself as, regardless of how the reaction is, 'cause I'm not waiting for a reaction. I'm not doing this for a reaction, right? And when you have that mindset, then the question answers itself, right? Because if you have that mindset, number one, you're probably going to get different responses than what you're getting, right? And number two, if you're not, you already know what to do. Like, you will know because you won't be coming from a place of fear or insecurity. You'll be coming from a place of knowing who you are and what you're doing and what you represent, and it won't be... You won't have to answer that question, you see what I'm saying? Like, because you already know the answer.

Nicole: Yeah, I think you're right, that what you just explained is the majority. But I do want to say that there probably are some women still too who are saying like, "This makes me have lower self-worth," or they are being vulnerable, and they are saying the things, and men are using those against them. The things that they bring up like, "Well, you don't even have any confidence in yourself," or like, "Or you're..." That's what I'm talking more about. And I'm like, I don't think it's a majority, but I do think it still happens. And so, I guess based on your answer that you just gave, it would be knowing that you are being vulnerable, and you should have respect for yourself and leave the situation after enough time. Like, that's what I would think would be if someone's using your most vulnerable moments against you or being like, you know, just like if you came to me and you were like, "When this happens, I feel like less of a man," and then we got in an argument, and I was like, "Well, you already feel less of a man." That's what I feel like some of these women are talking about, being used against them, right? Like, and so that's more what I was... I do agree, like I said, I'm glad you explained what you explained 'cause I think it's not black and white like that, but there are some extreme versions like I just mentioned. And I think people need to know the best way to handle those things. And again, let the person... No one can use something against you, and if you allow them to, right? Because then they can't actually be using... So even in the argument later, he's like, "Well, you have low self-worth anyway," and then you just say, "You're right, I said," which I agree with that, but it hurts to the person your closest would say that. And so, you're right, but let the... But take the fight out of the... You know what I'm saying? By continuing to be who you are. And then look, if you're doing that right, and this is why I'm saying this. I'm not saying this because I'm trying to be heartless or trying to like... I would give men completely different advice, right? In the sense that I would tell them, it doesn't matter if she's like, you be empathetic no matter what, and validate and listen to her emotions. But the reason why I'm saying that, right, to women, is because look, if you're doing this and you're not letting him use it against you because you're not putting up a fight or a resistance to it and not trying to protect yourself, then you're not going to need anyone to answer the question of what... Like, if you're literally just being completely 100% raw and not trying to protect yourself in any way, and you're just getting hurt, you already know what to do. Like, and you won't have any... You won't need any second opinion on it because you will know 100% what to do. You don't like this, and you don't want to be where you're not liked, and you're not... Right? It's like the reason why there's a debate about it or why there needs to be an opinion is because you're not 100% doing the thing to know for sure, you know what I mean? It's like, "Oh, I feel like there might be some." But if you're 100% not protecting yourself, just being 100% vulnerable, and you're getting reactions like that, which again, the chance of you getting reactions like that are much less. I mean, he really... That's why I said in that video, he... You really do have to be an evil man or a bad man. Like, at that point, you know that this man is an evil man. He is a bad man, right? He continues to do it exactly because you're not showing...

John: Any kind you're not giving anything to fight against, right? It's just abuse at that point. Because if I completely come to you defenseless, and I talk to you, and then you beat up on me and I stay defenseless, I don't try to protect myself at all. And then later in a different conversation, you beat up on me some more, and again, I'm not protecting myself, and I'm not disagreeing with you about what, like, I'm letting you do as kick me as much as you're going to kick me when I'm down, that's abuse at that point. Like, there's no question in your mind about it. When you fight back, that's when you start to question, well, did I do something wrong? Did I like, but when you're just like no, I'm going to, that's why I'm giving this advice, is because then it makes it crystal clear, and you don't ever have to waste another minute or another discussion or argument because you already know. But as long as you're still putting up that resistance and thinking that you're first of all, you're not going to change them that way, but as long as you're still doing that, you're not going to know in your heart for absolute sure that you're being abused, you know what I'm saying?

Nicole: Yeah, no, I think that's a good way to describe it. I think it's kind of hard too because, like you said, there might be like anger coming up for him when you start actually being vulnerable, or like, you know, he hasn't felt like he can be vulnerable, or there might be some things that come up in the beginning. But I do think if you're doing like you said, after a while, you do either see a change in that person or, and in your relationship, or you don't. And right, it's just hard because I know even the women who are with men who don't do this, you know, like don't, they're actually vulnerable with, and they're still met with like dismissive avoidant behavior. Yeah, then it's like, you know, you don't want to have to end your marriage or something like that, but you do have to accept a person for who they are, right? But you will have the highest amount of influence if you really are down on your knees, like really vulnerable, like look, and I'm not just saying this because, like we just said, I literally had a guy start a conversation with me with "[__] you," you know, word I'm not going to say that word on this podcast, but uh, you never even been in a fight, right? And I responded with vulnerability. I did not try to fight him. I did not try and like, I didn't act like a coward either, but that vulnerability and lack of defensiveness and not trying to protect myself against his harsh comments is what changed. So he's already coming more very, very hostile. So what I'm saying is that, yeah, a lot of women are saying, yeah, I'm doing this, but then the guy is reacting hostilely, which again, or dismissive, but if you're really, really doing this right, then there's only two choices. One, you're going to convert him. He's not gonna, he's going to respond to that because he can't help it. Again, remember, this guy came to me "[__] you, blah blah blah," right? And then I converted him. So you're either going to convert him, or the dude is just, are you, are he, he evil, he's bad news, like get out of there. Like if it's, if you're really, really, really there, mhm, and he's not responding to that, that's all the information that you need to know, right? Because that's a, he doesn't have a heart, you know, he's, you know what I'm saying? It's not a reachable one. He's twisted beyond what you can do. So, or vice versa. I mean, there's plenty of women too who, like these guys talk about, they are manipulative, like they do act a certain way, and then they try to cry to get back in good graces, and they have no intention of changing anything, you know? So it's not just a guy thing. Like, everybody needs to take accountability, and that's why we're talking about that. It's better to focus on you and what you can change inside of yourself, right, rather than other people. But, and guys are used to testing other guys too. Let me add that point, right? If I act, if I walk up to another guy, and I'm like, "AC, like I'm tough," right? I'm like, "I'll kick your ass," right? He's going to come the first thing he's going to do is get up in my face, right? That's what he's going to do. He's going to get closer in my face and look at me directly in the eyes and not blink. You've seen guys do this before where they get up in their face almost like they're going to kiss, right? Exactly. He's testing to see, am I really confident? Am I [__]? Right? He's going to see, what is, is it real? When a woman is acting vulnerable, many times it's the same thing. It's like, are you really, like, if I say something, oh, you're suddenly going to go into fight mode, and you weren't even really like, see, if you're really, really vulnerable, I can't shake you out of it. I'm not going to say something like that. Vulnerability is vulnerable itself, you know what I'm saying? So again, I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying a guy should be tested, and I'm saying when a woman is being vulnerable or crying or something, that a guy should be like, "Are you, are you really?" See how she, I'm not saying that he should be doing it. I'm just saying that it is oftentimes, uh, when you suspect that it's not real, that's what the reaction is. You're testing it because the reason why the guy gets up in your face is because he suspects it's not real. If he thought that you're really, really serious, for so, you wouldn't even say, "I'm going to kick your ass." You wouldn't need to. You just give him a look, and he would be scared, right? Because he knows you mean business. But if he doubts that you mean business, he's going to test. He's going to get in your face. See? And it's the same type of thing. If a guy's feeling like, "Oh, she's not really being vulnerable. She's just like saying this, but I know that if I don't react a certain way, she's going to flip the other way," then it's more likely that he is going to test that situation. You see what I'm saying?

Nicole: Yeah, makes sense. But yeah, it's just, it's complicated because everybody, like I said in the beginning, has things that they've personally went through, so the fear is valid.

John: Yeah, yeah. But just looking at some of your videos that have gone viral, it's like, yeah, or like more viral, I guess I should say. It's just sad to see, and I mean, we already see with the guys being like, marriage isn't even worth it, right? Like, they're so deep in the fear that they're writing off marriage already. And you know, then women have their own fears, you know, either about how they've been treated by men or, you know, not.

John: Being good enough on their own and needing to act independent, like they don't need anybody. It's just so full of fear that they're allowing it to control their lives without even realizing it. I was doing the same thing. And they think it comes from a place of strength, like you said. These men being like, "I'm never going to get married." They think, "Oh, I'm strong. I don't need marriage. I don't need a partner. I don't need half my stuff taken away." And women are like, "I don't need a man. I can do it all on my own." It's all out of fear, and it's all this strength that you have, but...

Nicole: Right. Yes, you have strength, but I think once people really get it, and like I said, you have to kind of get it on your own, no matter what anybody says. Once you really get that you're living from a place of fear, you almost feel more strong and more powerful than if you're guarding yourself, if that makes sense. Because now you're out in the open, knowing that nothing can really hurt you because you're just feeling it and you're putting it out there. And like you said, it can't be used against you. It does still hurt if the person you're vulnerable with, that you really care about, is throwing it back in your face. But instead of getting angry at that, or whatever emotion might come up, just be vulnerable about that. Come at it with just more vulnerability.

John: Right. So it's like the second that you realize that you don't have to let fear dictate your life, in whatever way that it is dictating your life, you feel a lot stronger. You feel a lot better. Like you said, things feel lighter. I feel lighter. I feel like I don't have to carry this steel wall around me at all times, you know what I mean? And like I said, a lot of it too is subconscious.

Nicole: Yeah. So, digging into yourself and listening to what your partner's been talking about, that might be bothering them that you're doing, and instead of just taking it personally and allowing that fear and that hurt to just be at the forefront, really think about, "Okay, well why do I act this way? Where does this come from? How did I start doing this? How did this fear get here? How did I start allowing that to drive me than other things?" And that's when you can really have that epiphany moment.

John: And then be like, "I'm not doing this anymore. I've lived like this for too long." And the second you are actually vulnerable, like you said, truly vulnerable, really lay it all out there, it does take a lot of the air out of the tires a lot of the time. And then when you realize the response is different, rather than fighting everybody or running away from hard conversations, then you're like, "Oh wow, this is definitely a better way to live." Exactly, like facing the fear head-on.

Nicole: Yeah, 100%. And guys obviously don't escape from this either, even though what I was saying about women. But as a man, you have to be vulnerable as well. It's a different, it looks a little different because women are feminine and soft, so their vulnerability looks a little bit different. But as a man, even like I said with that conversation I was vulnerable with that guy, he became a friend of mine. You've got to be able to do that too. Again, the same thing that's preventing you from doing it is the fear. And a lot of guys were trying to posture in the comments, they're like, "Oh yeah, if a woman's crying, I don't care. I'll just..." They're just trying to appear as tough, which is the opposite of being vulnerable. You know what I'm saying? When you posture yourself like that, you're not gaining anything. But when you see that there is no such thing as loss and you cannot lose, then you have nothing to hold on to, then the ego disappears, and you can be vulnerable because it's only when you're counting things as loss.

John: Right. And even when, like you were saying, if you are in a relationship, if you know the quality of your partner, you're not deciding it in a minute, whatever's happening right now. That's not you. You know them better than the minute that just transpired.

Nicole: So if you're basing it off of that last minute or last five minutes, that's not accurate, not fair. Instead, realize that they're a person with flaws just like you are, and whatever, and give them the grace and continue to be vulnerable, knowing that they're going through something. They're messing up in some way. That's okay. It's hard. I mean, yeah, obviously, this is easy to say, right, but harder to do in practice when you're in that moment. But the more that we can all surrender, the better, man and woman. Then the better off we are as partners. And we create so much resistance in our own lives by fighting. Every time we fight instead of acceptance, acceptance creates peace.

John: Right. Well, the last little thing I want to say is, I feel like everybody is just afraid to look weak, which they think is what vulnerability is.

Nicole: Right. But when you actually are vulnerable, you realize that's not true. That's the whole thing. People don't want to look weak. Women don't want to look weak. Men don't want to look weak. That's why men are like, "You're a simp when you do nice things." Or women are like, "How could you listen to a man?" They're all afraid to look weak. But the thing is, we're all not weak. We're all human beings. And the more that you're trying to show how strong you are, the more you are just going to end up on your own because nobody wants to be with somebody that is just hiding from their fears and just trying to overpower it with trying to look strong. We all have faults, right? And the second that we really acknowledge that and stop being afraid to let other people know that we have things that are wrong with us or feel, you know, things like that, then the more than we can put them out there, the more people can relate to us. Because behind closed doors, everybody has fears, and they have things that they do wrong. They just don't want to present them to the world. Then everybody will have a lot more empathy for each other.

John: Yeah. Like if they really understood that. And that's also too why we started this. Because we come on here and we talk about the ways that we mess up. It's not easy to do. It's very vulnerable. It's going on the internet for who knows who to see.

Nicole: But at the end of the day, there are people watching this and being like, "Wow, yeah, I've been through that. So, you know, I'm just like them." They go through the same things. And it just, it would be a lot better way to live. And again, it's like not allowing that fear.

John: Of being quote weak, you know, there's strength in vulnerability. Like we talked about that whole episode, vulnerability makes you invulnerable, right? Yeah, you're like invincible, yeah.

Nicole: Exactly. And so, I think if more people leaned on their vulnerability and just downright said how they're feeling in a vulnerable way, you know, like this makes me feel, you know, like I don't mean as much as a person. Yeah, it's scary to say that because you think someone else is going to be like, well, you don't even think you're worth anything as a person. It's like, okay, I admitted that. What are you going to do with that? Like you said, it takes the wind out of it. So, it's like just do the scary thing, right? Because it becomes less and less scary, and then you realize you don't even have that fear anymore, and it's not controlling you, right?

John: Exactly, yeah. No, I agree 100%. It's the root of it is the fear, that's true.

Nicole: Alright, well, what is our thing for the week? Uh, it's my... we got nothing. It's probably because we had the extreme ones that we already talked about, which that episode came out today where we were talking about how, oh yeah, we're... yeah, we had a fight, yeah. And so, or long discussion, and but like you've said, things have definitely felt lighter, they felt better. Like I feel like if something did come up, it would be a different experience for us as well too. So, and I felt light too, just like I'm not, you know, there's nothing for me to be upset about 'cause it's like, you know what I mean? I think, uh, many times in the past too, maybe I was more upset. I wasn't really upset about things you did or didn't do, it's more about your reaction to them, right? And that, you know, but that is the thing. But now it's like, there, that doesn't exist, and so there's nothing to be upset about. It's like, that's something good to talk about because we talk a lot, like we communicate a lot, and still, you can even sit here and admit that maybe the whole time it was how I was not communicating properly or, you know, holding us back. And like the old me would have never been able to admit that out loud. I would have beat myself up if you told me that it was really me, you know, you couldn't get through to me. So, just the fact that I can sit here and hear that and not internally be like, Nicole, you suck, you know, like he hates you deep down, is a good thing. And I recently talked with one of my friends, and she's, it's funny 'cause, yeah, she's going through a lot of the similar feelings that I was having. And I could tell her, you know, again, I can't make her have that epiphany moment, but I could tell her ways to help her get to that epiphany moment, right? Where so she'll get out of her own way, she'll stop having the fear 'cause she was saying the same thing, that she's like, you know, every time my fiance says something, I'm like, take it personally. And I'm like, girl, I was there. I was there, but, and there is something too that's nice about even acknowledging the way that you messed up, and then hearing you say like, maybe this whole time it was just that I couldn't talk to you because, right? Like I felt like I was doing the right things, right? But the thing I wasn't actually doing was allowing you to effectively communicate with me. And so, that one thing kind of took away some of the other things, which I'm not saying that that will always happen, but no, no, sometimes too, you don't even know what the real root of the problem is until you get to a point where you've talked about it so many times that you figure it out, you both figure it out, right?

John: Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that, and that's, I mean, that's a great example, just the way that you took that about me saying that is, it's, that's why I feel lighter, is because I can say something like that, which is never ever meant to hurt you or to come down on you, it's just to share my truth.

Nicole: Well, I don't take it personally more because I owned up to that, right? Like I saw that I was doing that. I had that moment where I was like, I am standing in my own way, right? And so, you saying that doesn't trigger anything within me because I own up to it. Like I know that that's what was happening, right? Like I feel different, you feel different, so that's why I wanted to talk about the whole thing because like it's what I've been going through recently and like realized, and then seeing all those comments, it's like just fear everywhere, like exactly, yeah. It's hate, you know, like not hate hate, but like some of it comes off as hate, but it's really fear. Like fear is, that's what's behind it, exactly, yeah. So, like both men and women need to realize what fear's doing to their lives because the second you do, the second you will feel lighter, the second it takes, like you said, like you could say whatever you need to say to me. I know also too that you'll do it respectfully, and I know that sometimes it is hard to deal with people who are being disrespectful, saying things to you, but it's, it's just not the same as it was. Like I got out of my own, it's a huge difference, yeah, because it, it like, and just to say that, like we communicated all the time, right? Like our relationship really was better than perfect. Like we got along 99% of the time, just holding our hands all the time, you know, just happy, sex, everything, right? But what was difficult for me was that, oh, we could talk so much about all the positive stuff, but I felt like I could never talk about any negative with you, right? And so, that just, you know, that, and that made it hard for me to be as close as I could be and is open. Like even right, like I don't have to watch what I'm saying right now in this moment, and that takes the burden, like a weight is lifted off of me because I know that what I'm saying right now, you're taking that well because you know that it's, we're just having communication, understand, like you get me, you understand, right? Whereas before, I might have to be like, oh, I don't know if I should say that because then that's going to lead to this and that, you know, it's like, but now it's like, it's freeing, and it creates a deeper communication, that, you know, right. Which I know you're not saying this, but you should keep in mind the things that you say to your partner. I know you're not saying that, but I think it is important because not even from a stance of like walking on eggshells, like no one should be walking on eggshells, but from a stance of like, you love this person, like, right, you, even if you're upset, you don't want to hurt this person, right. And so, yeah, I know that's not what you mean necessarily. I know you mean the eggshells thing, but yeah, yeah, just to throw out there because, you know, people should care about how they talk to the people they care about, yeah, even if you're upset, but yeah.

John: But yeah, no, I've been really like, you've done an amazing job, and it takes a lot, like I said last episode, for you to come on and admit the things that were holding you back. You know, I make plenty of mistakes myself, which we've talked about on the F, and I will make plenty of mistakes in the future, but yeah, it takes a lot to do, and it has made a huge impact. Like I said, I do feel lighter, and it's good, you know. So, yeah.

Nicole: All right, well, we don't have any new reviews. Please, yeah, send us some reviews. Let us know that you're out. Maybe we need to say it in the beginning because maybe, do you think people get to the end? Some people, the people that count, maybe we should do both. Beginning, turn into one of those YouTubers, like, like and subscribe and write reviews, yeah.

John: But yeah, and then if you want, if you're interested in being on the podcast, like I said, if you are in San Diego or going to be in San Diego, because we want to do it in person, no Zoom, live, previously recorded, yeah, just email us at betterthanperfectpodcast@gmail.com, and yeah, I think that's it for this week, yeah.

Nicole: All right, through every fault, we find our way.