John [00:00:00]: The way that parenting is handled is going to influence their own psychology of how they parent themselves. We're not just trying to get the result of beyond time. What we're trying to get the result of is that when I make mistakes, there are consequences that I need to pay. But I'm not a bad person.

Nicole [00:00:15]: Right.

John [00:00:16]: I'm still loved, but I still need to pay those consequences. Right.

Nicole [00:00:19]: I just made a mistake.

John [00:00:20]: Because that's the internal psychology that we're trying to promote that will produce all the external results. It's about the psychology that you're instilling in the child.

Nicole [00:00:29]: Beyond the perfect.

John [00:00:31]: We discovered through our flaws, we complete each other. Better than perfect we stay through every fault we find our way. All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

Nicole [00:00:54]: That's right.

John [00:00:55]: Today we're going to be talking about something that is stressful. Yes. That is far from perfect.

Nicole [00:01:02]: That's true.

John [00:01:03]: Yeah. But it's parenting, which we have done.

Nicole [00:01:07]: An episode on before, but it's been a while.

John [00:01:11]: Yeah. I mean, I think that to neglect that part of. I think this one was going to be more focused on, like, how to parent. Right. As opposed to, like, the.

Nicole [00:01:21]: No, I think we've done how to parent.

John [00:01:23]: Okay, well, then. Well, well, where you can see that.

Nicole [00:01:26]: Because you were talking about how, like, some of the roles we have and things like that.

John [00:01:30]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:01:31]: That people, when you did another video on, were like, that's crazy.

John [00:01:36]: Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, we'll. We'll go over it again, sort of.

Nicole [00:01:40]: Yeah, that's fine.

John [00:01:41]: Yeah. Because I think it's important to. And it kind of dovetails. What we were talking about in the. In the last week's episode of, you know, not yelling and, you know, and that high standard, so.

Nicole [00:01:55]: That's true. Well, go ahead. You were a parent before me.

John [00:02:00]: That's true. Well, I mean, I think the key thing is that. Well, okay, like, I guess I'd say we'd start here, which is that in order to be a good parent in a relationship, your relationship with your spouse has to come first. First.

Nicole [00:02:20]: Yeah, you've definitely said that. That's like one of the clips that has.

John [00:02:24]: That's the foundation. Right. It's like, if you. If you're like, oh, I love my child more than my spouse, that's going to be a problem.

Nicole [00:02:33]: And a lot of people when you said that before, they're like, no, my kid. And I do think it gets Complicated when you're not with the mother or father of your child, like, that part. Because even being the step parent, like, it does feel weird.

John [00:02:54]: It does feel weird. Yeah. But let me tell you this, though. Like, in order to love your child, you have to love your. Your spouse has to come first. Because you're not loving your child correctly if your spouse isn't coming first. So without the foundation, it's just selfish love. Like. Like we're talking about in the last episode. Where is this coming from? A place of love. Are you just saying the word is love? Because if you think you love your child, right, There's a difference between you. You loving something and actually giving love. Because, like, I love ice cream, right? You know, I love pizza. Whatever it is, I want that.

Nicole [00:03:41]: Mm.

John [00:03:41]: That's. We're using the same word. And for a lot of people towards their children, they want their child, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, they. They have affection for their child, like, because of what the child is. That's not the same thing as sacrificially loving of. Like, I love this. Like, I'm giving love. And that's the. And so that's why it's like putting your spouse first is the giving love to the child, not the. Like, you know, when you're like, oh, I know my child is the most important thing to me in my life. That's actually. It's like, yeah, it's the most important thing to you. Selfish. You see what I'm saying? Like, I love pizza. That's the same energy that's coming from that. Whereas when you put your spouse first, you're actually setting the example for your child like, you're creating, you know, because if you truly love your child, right, you want to set an example for them that will help them in their life, right? And that means that. Showing them that when they are in a relationship, that that relationship comes paramount and first and nothing comes between. Because if you create that example for that child that's truly loving them, because you're setting them up for success, which.

Nicole [00:05:05]: I think, like, as an adult. Right, I understand, but I think it's hard for children to, like, understand. And how is loving your spouse not like loving pizza or ice cream?

John [00:05:18]: Because. Because, yeah, obviously you have, like, the. The. The love that. That kind of love for your spouse that, you know. But the difference is that, well, any kind of love should not come from the selfish form of love. It should come from the love of, like, what you give. It's an action. Love is an Action it's not a feeling like, yes, love the feeling should create love the action. But it's also true that love the action creates love the feeling. And that's the more important thing to focus on is because the love the feeling relying on love the action coming from that, it's still a selfish act and it can disappear. But when you realize that love the feeling comes from love the action, you can do love the action over and over again to get love the feeling so it doesn't die. So the difference is that when you love your spouse, like I said, there shouldn't be any difference, because however you love, it should come from actions. It's what you do. It's not something that you feel. It's not something that you want from someone else. You know what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:06:40]: I guess I'm just confused because last episode you said you can, like, say the things that you love somebody, but is that not an action?

John [00:06:52]: It's. It's. It's not really an action because in the sense that it has to be connected to the. The motive or the. Like, like, like the, the. You know, so for instance. Right, like.

Nicole [00:07:09]: But I think. I guess where I'm confused is that how, like, let's say with like, I want to talk about this to like, iron it out, because now it's confusing.

John [00:07:20]: Okay. Yeah.

Nicole [00:07:20]: Because I think that using the thing where your child said something or whatever and you're like, oh, no, honey, like, you know, I love you, whatever. Like, I don't see how putting aside your emotions that you have based on the situation and still being there for your kid and reassuring them that you love them.

John [00:07:46]: Oh, I see what you're saying is.

Nicole [00:07:47]: Not loving like, and I think that that's what's confusing is that, like, I think that in some ways that is loving. Maybe it's not the highest level that you're talking about, but I think that that is an actual loving thing to do is in a moment that is incredibly hard for most people to not allow their emotions or take. They take things personally. Again, like I said before, everybody's like, emotions come in regardless. It is still a loving action to do.

John [00:08:23]: It appears that way, but it's counterfeit because it doesn't matter.

Nicole [00:08:28]: If it's a loving action is to.

John [00:08:30]: Actually love is to.

Nicole [00:08:32]: But how do you know the difference? Because like I just said, people would think that that is loving.

John [00:08:38]: Only you know the difference. But the only way you can know the difference is by having that as the standard. You know, if it's Just the words, just the actions is the standard, then. Yeah, then it doesn't.

Nicole [00:08:50]: But like I said, I don't think that's just words, but.

John [00:08:54]: But it is. Like, I get what you're saying, like, in the sense that, like, you're doing something that, like, you're putting aside your own emotions, but it's still inauthentic. Like, it's still not.

Nicole [00:09:09]: Then what?

John [00:09:10]: Is it still counterfeit, right? Because it's still fake. It's fake is what it is.

Nicole [00:09:16]: How is it fake?

John [00:09:17]: Because the words you're saying aren't authentic. Like, you're making a choice to sacrifice yourself, which is good. Which is, you know, it seems good, but the whole thing is counterfeit because the words you're saying aren't authentic.

Nicole [00:09:32]: How do you know they're not authentic?

John [00:09:34]: Because if you're still feeling feelings of anger, resentment, of, like, I don't want to do this, but I'm doing this anyway, then it's not authentic.

Nicole [00:09:47]: Okay? So you have to just. I guess how you're saying, but how do people even do that? Because you're just saying, how do they do it?

John [00:09:59]: By having the standard. That's where it starts it kind of the same thing we were talking about last episode, but it.

Nicole [00:10:05]: Love the action. It just. It means what you're talking about. It doesn't mean, like, telling people you love them or those things.

John [00:10:12]: Those are. Those are fault. Like, those are. Are fake. Like, they're like, anyone can say, I love you, right? How much I read it. That people can say it and mean it. It's true. But the words don't convey the meaning by themselves.

Nicole [00:10:29]: I understand what you're saying. I just think that you've made it incredibly complicated.

John [00:10:34]: It's like.

Nicole [00:10:36]: It's not because I understand what you're saying, but I feel like other people might not understand fully.

John [00:10:43]: It's. Your emotions cannot betray the words you're saying, otherwise they're inauthentic. I think that's the simplest way I can put it. I understand if you say the right thing, but you feel the wrong thing, it's inauthentic and it's counterfeit. It feels like you're doing the right thing, but you're not.

Nicole [00:11:04]: Still, I get what you're saying. I just don't feel like I've ever felt like people, like, unless it's really obvious where they're like, yeah, I love you. That is obvious. But I don't think I would ever, like, hear somebody say what I just said and assume that they don't mean it.

John [00:11:24]: It's. The person knows it. It's.

Nicole [00:11:27]: But you're acting like it's obvious. So when.

John [00:11:32]: When it's obvious to the person, right? Like when we. Again, this bridges perfectly into our conversation with. With the child. If you tell a child, oh, it's okay, don't worry, I love you. Good, right? But those. But in reality, if you're feeling like this little shit, like, what the hell? Like, why am I having to deal with this crap? But you're saying those words, they're just meaningless, counterfeit words. Like, you have to change the heart. Like you have to look and say, why am I feeling this way? Let me do the full action of love, which is to change my heart. Like, I shouldn't feel this way towards this human being. I should feel love towards them. That's the action. Like that. Then that action has meaning. You see what I'm saying? It's like, I understand. I think it's confusing because there's like the love, the feeling that we receive versus love, the feeling that we give, you know?

Nicole [00:12:41]: I understand what you're saying, but I also think that it is a little flawed as well. Only because that. I think that if someone has something as well inside themselves, and a lot of people do, then they can't feel love from anyone, no matter how much somebody shows you. So you can be showing authentic love, right? And if they can't feel it from anybody because of their own problems, you're absolutely right. They can say that they don't feel it and it's not genuine. And so then it's like, that doesn't.

John [00:13:13]: Make it not genuine. Like you. It's. It's up to you. Like, it's not up to them. Like, nothing.

Nicole [00:13:21]: I guess I'm confused because you're saying that it's obvious to the person.

John [00:13:24]: It's obvious then.

Nicole [00:13:25]: Now you're saying to them, to themselves.

John [00:13:28]: When I say the person, I mean to the person doing the act, okay?

Nicole [00:13:33]: Because you made it seem like the other person is obvious to the person they're talking to. Like their child or something.

John [00:13:38]: Yeah, yeah. That's not obvious. Like, you can fool a person into thinking that you love them and that you're a loving person and that you act in a loving way, but your heart can be in a different place. Like, you can definitely live your whole life that way and no one will know the difference.

Nicole [00:13:57]: Now it makes sense. But you will know the difference that you.

John [00:13:59]: Because it will tear you up inside and you will not be authentic. And none of the love you're giving will be worth a damn cent.

Nicole [00:14:07]: Yeah, it makes more sense now that you explained it this way.

John [00:14:09]: Yeah, it's just a word.

Nicole [00:14:10]: But also at the same time, I mean, people yell at their kids. We do not. We don't think it's a good thing. So, yeah, so it's like, again, you're talking about this, like, level 100 and people are on 10. If you don't know what we're talking about, go to the last episode. But I don't really want to go down a whole spiral just on this because we kind of already talked about it in the last one.

John [00:14:32]: It's foundational, though, Right? So the number one was that your spouse comes first. Right. But this is also foundational in the sense that the standard is. Is that. Well, like, if the standard is. Is that my emotional state towards this human being, which is my child, is one of love, not of they're annoying, not they're negative, right? Then the not yelling at them will come easy, right? So you can try to not yell at someone coming from a willpower of, like, preventing yourself from doing a thing, but that's not going to be very effective and you're going to mess up. Whereas if the change of heart comes towards how you see the person, then the not yelling at them comes automatic.

Nicole [00:15:25]: I understand what you're saying because it sounds just like what we talked about last episode.

John [00:15:29]: But that's the standard. So that's, again, baseline, Right. So then now we could get into the specifics, which is obviously, well. And understanding why. Right? So I think the reason why we parent the way that we do is because the big mistake that I think a lot of parents make is that they allow the child to associate their emotional state with wrongness. Right? So in the sense that I upset Mom, I upset dad, and that's why I'm being punished. Right? So it's very important that when you discipline that you separate your emotional state. Right? Like your emotional. Your emotional state should be loving through discipline, because discipline is a loving act. Punishment is a vindictive act. We punish people to make them feel pain because they deserve it. We hurt us. Exactly. We discipline someone because we love them, because we don't want them to be harmed, to harm themselves or harm someone else. So we give them. We discipline them. So that's where I think is the key is, like, because a lot of parents, they'll do what they think is discipline, but they're yelling at the same time, or they're angry and they're not Coming from a loving place. And so the lesson that is learned by the child is not I need to respect people or I need to control my behaviors. It's I need to not upset mom or I'm not upset dad. That's a lesson that they learn. It's like, if I get caught, then I'm going to get hurt. That's lesson that they're learning. Right. They're emotionally going to get hurt, even if it's not physically hurt. Where? That's not what we're trying to teach. Right. Because if a child does something wrong and it's like we're trying to teach them the lesson, like, for example, to have respect for authority, we want to make sure that that's the lesson that they got, not the other thing. And the only way for them to get that lesson is for us to presented in a loving way, but to carry the consequence. Right.

Nicole [00:17:58]: Which doesn't mean that it's going to be loving on all sides, but you have to be loving as the parents.

John [00:18:04]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:18:04]: And as a united front. And I think going back to what you said about the relationship has to come first. I think that kind of like we talked about again in the last episode that I. I don't even know at this point how parents can parent not on a united front, like, not as a team. It just seems like it'd be a million times harder than it already is.

John [00:18:30]: Yeah. And a child, like children, will try to divide you. And we've seen it, you know, like, and it's a common thing where a child will ask one parent one thing and then ask the other parent the other thing. Right.

Nicole [00:18:45]: Or when one says no, go to the other.

John [00:18:47]: Exactly. Right. So it's like you have to be unified, but it's going to be really hard for you to be unified if you're not putting the spouse first, if you put the child first. So it's not going to be good for the child. If you're putting the child first, you have to put the spouse first because otherwise you're going to be put in the situation because the child will exploit the situation. And then they'll learn that they can exploit situations. But if you're unified, they can't do that and they're learning the right lesson.

Nicole [00:19:14]: That's true. Yeah, that's very true. I think that it also doesn't mean, though, telling a kid, like, they don't come first because in a way, like, the kid comes first. When you are a united front, if that makes sense, when you have that unity, you now become one. So it's like you merge from two people into one, and now the kid does come first in the sense of this unit, if that makes sense.

John [00:19:38]: I think there's. Yeah, I think that's true. I think there's also something to be said, you know, to telling a child, especially a boy of a certain age, that, don't you dare disrespect my wife. You know, like there's something to be said about that. Right. So. Because that's something for that child to understand is that, like, I love you, however, like, my wife comes first. Like, if you disrespect my wife, if you make me choose between my wife and you, I would choose her.

Nicole [00:20:14]: So you say that to boys because they need to learn how to be a man. Is that why you're specifically saying.

John [00:20:22]: I don't think it needs to be said unless it's challenged. I think it's demonstrated. I think if it's demonstrated well, it doesn't need to be said.

Nicole [00:20:32]: Right, I agree. You wouldn't just say it outright. I know what you're saying.

John [00:20:37]: If the child sees you opening the car door for your wife, if he sees how you treat her and respect her, then that child knows that that person is a high importance in this man's life.

Nicole [00:20:53]: Yeah, I'm just saying, because you said boy specifically. So I don't know if there was.

John [00:20:57]: A part of that situation.

Nicole [00:21:00]: Or something, masculinity thing or whatever.

John [00:21:04]: I mean, a boy needs to learn how to defend his wife, like, and that he should have that level of. Of. Of loyalty and, you know, in ferociousness when it comes to someone who would harm his wife. So regardless of who it is, even. Even your own child.

Nicole [00:21:24]: So is that coming from a loving place?

John [00:21:28]: It does. It does come from a loving place. Because. Because what's the principle behind that? Right? It's like. Like, for example, if you show that to a child that. That no one will harm your wife, that's a good principle for that child. Like, that's coming from a loving place. It's not coming from a, you know, doesn't come from an evil place or a harmful place, hateful place.

Nicole [00:21:58]: Yeah, no, I'm not saying that it does, but I'm just saying, like, last episode, in this episode, we talked so much about, like, loving and, like, it just doesn't seem like that would come across as loving to the child is what I'm asking. Because, like, this is why I'm concerned. Because people are not even on the level that we're talking about.

John [00:22:20]: I get it. So let me clarify. Like, responding and always in love.

Nicole [00:22:25]: Mm.

John [00:22:26]: Let's say that someone attacked you and attacked your family. How do you respond in love? In that case, you might have to kill him. You might have to kill him.

Nicole [00:22:36]: People would not think that that's responding in love, but that is respond taking someone else's love.

John [00:22:40]: Yeah, but like, it's how you do it.

Nicole [00:22:42]: Like, how do you do it in love?

John [00:22:44]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:22:44]: With a flower?

John [00:22:45]: No, no, like. Like, you know, you lay next to.

Nicole [00:22:51]: Him, you're like, I'm sorry I have to do this.

John [00:22:53]: Yeah, I'm sorry I have to. I'm sorry I have to do this. Like, I'm like, just like. I think maybe the way that we can understand it, because it seems absurd to us, but we understand this implicitly with Native Americans. When a Native American takes life from any living thing, they think it honor the thinking. And so that's responding in love, Right? So even though they're taking life, you can take life coming from a place of love. It's true. If it's a necessity, if it's something that has to happen, someone's attacking your family, you don't want to harm them. Just like even in the silly. The Stargate, right? Til', C, right? He was like, remember the guy went crazy and he tries to attack Tilch and he's like, I don't want to hurt this man. Right? He tells the general. He's like, I don't want to hurt this man. But it's like the guy's attacking him and hurting him. But Tilt's like, I don't want to hurt this man. So that's where it comes from. But it's because it's coming from that place. It's not necessarily other people's interpretation of the actions. It's where is it actually coming from? That's why that's the most important question. Are you responding?

Nicole [00:24:09]: No, I'm glad you said that because I think it's important. Before, you made it seem like that was not the case, and that's why I was trying to talk more about it. And so I'm glad it actually came up because again, I think that people would could misconstrue what you said before as, like, you never have to say any hard things or you never have to do any hard things because it doesn't seem loving. So it's actually good. You said this, and that's why I asked you, is that really coming from a place of love? Because the way you described it before did not seem to include what you're talking about now. And so I also wanted you to explain it because I knew you'd do it a good job, but we just didn't get to that part.

John [00:24:53]: And this is why parenting is so important is because one of the things I use with a lot of my coaching clients is I tell them that you have to be a good parent to yourself. And if you don't understand what good parenting is, then you're not going to be a good parent to yourself. Because responding in love a lot of times looks like discipline. Like a good father is not afraid to discipline because that's a loving thing to do. Now, there's a difference between punishment and responding with the belt and anger. And like, you piss me off, you little brat. Now you're gonna get it. Like, that's a different thing than if you think about a good king, a good father. They are. They respond with discipline, but it's coming from a loving place because they want to provide what is best for the child. But it's important that we understand it because that's how we deal internally with ourselves. Because we parent ourselves. There's a voice in our head that is our parent to ourselves. And if we don't understand this dynamic, then what ends up happening is we parent ourselves in the wrong way and we punish ourselves instead of discipline. Because again, as a good parent, when I talk to my child and I say, I'm sorry that you're gonna have to suffer this consequence, but you're gonna have to suffer this consequence. It's not. You're a bad person. I hate you. It's not like I want to inflict pain on you. It's like, I'm sorry that you're gonna have to go through this pain. I don't want you to have to go through this pain, but you do, because it's what's good for you, right? And so if we don't understand that and we can't parent that way, then in our own psychology, we're fucking ourselves up because we're gonna do the same thing to ourselves. We're like, oh, we'll punish ourselves instead of discipline ourselves. But when you understand that psychology and you apply that to a child, then you heal yourself and apply it to yourself internally. And again, what kind of fucked up relationship are you gonna have if you're punishing yourself and punishing your spouse as opposed to having self discipline, you know? So that's why it's so important, I think.

Nicole [00:27:13]: Yeah. No, I agree with you. And I'm glad you explained it further.

John [00:27:18]: But I think that's the core of it, is that, you know, I know we're talking at higher levels here, but as far as parenting is, you know, is where it's coming from. And then, like, the principles derive automatic. Like, well, if you have those principles, then the behaviors of how you should parent become answered automatically. Like, you don't even need to. That's why I say the principles are the most important thing. But, you know, like, why would you yell? In that case, it makes it. Right. But, you know, of course, when you say you're going to do something, you carry out the discipline. Right. Like, you know, a lot of parents today are, because they're not rooted in those principles. They end up, you know, doing the thing that, you know, not making the hard decision that they need to make. That is, you know, because a lot of times in the short term, it feels like loving when you spare the child from the consequence.

Nicole [00:28:23]: Right.

John [00:28:23]: But really it's a selfish act because you don't want to deal with which we've even done that have financial, emotional turmoil, turn the car around, like, because it's what's good for the child.

Nicole [00:28:38]: Well, I mean, we've also spared things that we've.

John [00:28:41]: Oh, yeah, we've done. Yeah.

Nicole [00:28:42]: For sure. To, like, give grace, you know. But unfortunately, like, a lot of times kids don't understand that they're being spared. They're given a second chance even if you tell them, like, next time, you know, and that's why a lot of times, unfortunately, you do have to carry out the discipline.

John [00:29:01]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:29:02]: Again, like, it's at least with us and it should be with everybody. It's always blatantly stated, sometimes even multiple times, you know, to try to be nice.

John [00:29:14]: Right.

Nicole [00:29:14]: But it does have to follow through because the second you don't uphold the consistency, they don't take it seriously.

John [00:29:23]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:29:23]: And then that causes a whole.

John [00:29:26]: And the whole point was, like, the point was not to, you know, and I think this is the point with the parenting, too, is that it's not to make your life easier.

Nicole [00:29:35]: Right.

John [00:29:36]: It's to make their life easier.

Nicole [00:29:37]: It's to help them. Yeah.

John [00:29:38]: In their life outside of when they become an adult.

Nicole [00:29:41]: Right.

John [00:29:42]: And so it's like, it's going to make your life harder in the short term.

Nicole [00:29:46]: Right. Because you're involved. You have to pay attention. You have to follow through. You have to, like, there is no, Well, I mean, like in our home, there is no, like, give the kid an iPad and then like, you can do whatever you want or whatever.

John [00:29:59]: Well, a lot of parents too, I think, have the impression that, okay, I'm going to train this child to be a well behaved child so I won't have a problem to deal with. No, you're going to have the problem. Deal with. The discipline is so that when they're an adult that, like, It's a total 100% sacrifice on your part.

Nicole [00:30:18]: Right.

John [00:30:18]: Like, don't mistake it in any way. Like, parenting has no reward. It's 100% sacrifice if you're doing it right. Because the benefit is not to you in any way, it's to them.

Nicole [00:30:29]: That's true.

John [00:30:30]: And that's what it is, like 100%. Because if you think that there's anything in it for you, then it's selfish. Then it's not love.

Nicole [00:30:41]: Yeah, but sometimes people have kids for selfish reasons. Like you said, like, yeah, they, I mean, like our parents generation. Not that any of our parents said this, but I mean, they would blatantly say they had kids to take care of them when they got old.

John [00:30:54]: Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Nicole [00:30:55]: Like, that's crazy to me.

John [00:30:58]: I know, I know. But I mean, but that's the reality. Like, the truth of it is that. But it's important that people know that. But, but again, like, it's like these, these things, these systems, these principles exist for a reason. Like the way that you parent is the way that you internally parent yourself. And yeah, though, and it's like. And they go one to the other. Like a person who internally parents themselves correctly will be a person who does not yell at their child.

Nicole [00:31:32]: So. Well, and I think we were talking about this a little bit with my parents, actually. I think that you're not technically a millennial, I don't think, but I think millennials, you know, they're, well, your generation, Gen X and millennials, which are raising the current generation. You know, I think that we went a little too far. Like, our parents, parents were very, very, very strict.

John [00:32:02]: Right.

Nicole [00:32:02]: And so, yeah, our parents didn't really know what to do. And they were still strict, but they weren't like, they were trying to do more, but they emotionally didn't know how to do more. And then we wanted to do better. And we just, like, emotions rule everything and there's no structure anymore.

John [00:32:22]: Here's the thing about it, though. What's right is always right. It's like when I was, when I was a model, when I was in the modeling agency, I remember the, the agency owner, she told me, she was like, look, your staple As a model is black. You're wearing black, black and white. Like, colors are going to seasonal, whatever. Like, trends. Like, she's like, the staple is like a leather jacket is always gonna look good. Right. Like, there's these staples of things that are always. Right. Right. And it's like there's trends and there's where people are going, but there's the thing that's always the right thing. And so it's. I mean, what you're saying is accurate. It's like that's exactly what's happened, is that, you know, one generation. In fact, there's a book. There's a book called the Four. The Four Turning Point. I forgot the name of it, but we've got it on our bookshelf. But it caused that phenomenon. But as a grounded human being and parent, you have to know what's always correct, which is parenting, the way that we're talking about, with discipline carrying through, it doesn't matter what the trend is. You know, the thing is correct, it's not. Doesn't matter what other people are doing.

Nicole [00:33:46]: Yeah. No, I agree, and I do think we parent that way. But I'm just saying that.

John [00:33:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:33:51]: Because to most parents, like I just talked about, we seem strict.

John [00:33:56]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:33:57]: Yeah, but that's like what you're saying is that we're just doing the things that we know will be most beneficial and acting in a loving way.

John [00:34:07]: Right.

Nicole [00:34:08]: But I'm saying that, like, those influences have caused this sort of shift, not just in kids, but in society really as a whole. But like you said, you have to. The thing is that kids can't not have some sort of structure. And it should be loving structure that has consequences that make sense for the action. Right.

John [00:34:35]: The principles have to guide you. Right. So it's like, if your principle is like that, you're responding out of love, then the discipline naturally follows. Because if you love a person, are you going to allow them to just.

Nicole [00:34:50]: Blow up their life?

John [00:34:51]: No, you would impose the discipline. So it naturally follows by prescribing. Because it's like, oh, too strict or not strict. Yeah, you're going to have that problem. If you don't have a principle that you're basing things off of. But if your main principle is like, how can I love this child the most? Not in a selfish way, like, you know, but in. In a way that is actually beneficial to the child, then, you know, then the action follows naturally that discipline is. Is what's necessary.

Nicole [00:35:21]: Well, I think it goes back to, again, the other episode as well. Too, that it's like. Because I do think in some ways, yes, like, parenting definitely does matter, but in some other ways, a child is who they are. And so again, kind of similar to the communication thing and coming from a place of love is that as a parent, you have to do the right thing for yourself. Exactly.

John [00:35:48]: And that's where it comes.

Nicole [00:35:49]: Stand on that.

John [00:35:50]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:35:51]: Because your kid could still do something off the wall, even if you've loved them more than anything and have rules like, you know, you don't know what they're really gonna do.

John [00:36:04]: Right.

Nicole [00:36:04]: Because they are their own person as well, too, and they're dealing with their own things. But.

John [00:36:10]: Right. Because if you're doing it in order to get a result, it's called manipulation. Anytime you ever do something in order to get a result from someone, regardless of how pleasantly you put it, it's called manipulation.

Nicole [00:36:23]: No, that's true.

John [00:36:24]: Right. And there are some cases where it's for someone's good. Right. But you have to recognize that, like, that's still the case is you're still manipulating them in some way. So, you know.

Nicole [00:36:38]: But yeah, I think it's just hard because, like. Like, we've had some struggles, and I think that it is hard to just act like you don't care.

John [00:36:51]: No.

Nicole [00:36:51]: Like, it affects you to just have something happen and you have to, like, act like it doesn't affect you.

John [00:37:00]: But I think that's where the strength of your relationship is. Like, because you're relying on your partner for the support, not your child. Because people that rely on their child for love or their support, they're going to need.

Nicole [00:37:14]: They're parentifying their child. And that causes way more problems for the child.

John [00:37:19]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:37:19]: Like, you can never, no matter how hard it is, like you said, you have to have some sort of support. And if you are a single parent, that needs to be other adults or your family, not your child.

John [00:37:32]: Right.

Nicole [00:37:33]: Because you put so much on your child that you don't even realize when you're, like, venting to them about something like that.

John [00:37:41]: Right.

Nicole [00:37:42]: And that is really hard for a child to comprehend that it's not their responsibility.

John [00:37:49]: But that's why you do all the things out of principle, not based on trying to get anything or respond to certain. It's like, you know that you've done the right thing if you've done the right thing. And that's the reward, is that you've done the right thing.

Nicole [00:38:02]: Yeah. Sometimes that's the only reward that is.

John [00:38:04]: It's the only. It's the only Meaningful reward in life is knowing that you've done the right thing. Because every other reward is like. Is false. Because it's like you're seeking validation or approval from someone else.

Nicole [00:38:19]: Yeah.

John [00:38:20]: And that's.

Nicole [00:38:21]: I know it's not expected, but I don't think it's wrong for parents to want love from their child. I think it's wrong to expect it. Yes, but, like, it's kind of ridiculous to tell a parent that they're not gonna want love from their child.

John [00:38:39]: Yeah, I get it. I mean, obviously, like, we're humans. Like, we.

Nicole [00:38:43]: Right, that's what I'm saying. Like, sometimes you're talking like we're not humans.

John [00:38:46]: No, but it doesn't change.

Nicole [00:38:48]: We're not AI yet, John. We're not robots.

John [00:38:51]: No, but it's not robotic. It's the most human thing, like, to be, like, the most loving thing, let's say, to love in an unconditional way that requires nothing from anyone else.

Nicole [00:39:07]: I'm not saying that it requires it. I think you're confusing what I'm saying. I mean, I think that two things can be right at one time. Like, I think you cannot expect it. Just, like when you're single and you're looking for love, you're not expecting it to just show up when you want it, but you want it. And I think that's the hard part, you know, is at times, like, especially when it's hard, like, even if you can logically tell yourself the things that you're saying.

John [00:39:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:37]: There's still a part of you as a human being that wants love.

John [00:39:42]: Yeah. Yeah.

Nicole [00:39:44]: Like, I think that's just. Again, you can't. Don't manipulate to get it. Don't, like, expect it and then hurt.

John [00:39:50]: Your own feelings, which. Which again, like, it makes sense, but which is the greater fulfillment. Like, can anyone ever give you enough love that will actually fill the void? Or can you give enough love that it fills the void? You see what I'm saying?

Nicole [00:40:11]: I know that you're right, that it's about giving it. I understand it.

John [00:40:15]: Because even the wanting it, like, I get it. Like, we want it, but we have to get rid of the notion of wanting it, because that's not actually gonna do anything for us. We think it'll do something for us.

Nicole [00:40:27]: I think if you want it to fulfill something in your life. Yes. But I think you can want it without, like, I think you can appreciate it. Needing it. Yeah. Maybe appreciate better. I think you can appreciate it is a better word. Without, like, it. I think there is A difference between appreciating it, maybe that's the word.

John [00:40:51]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:40:51]: And it. Filling a void. Because I don't think that those two are the same. Exactly. I think you can want something and not because you're missing something, but because you just want to experience that thing. Not because you need it, because I do think a decent amount of parents do also not have rules and structure in order to make sure their kids love them.

John [00:41:14]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:41:14]: So they can get that from them to fill the void. Or they turn their kids into, like, their best friend, like, while they're still kids, to fulfill a void in them. And I think that's different than, like, just want, like, wanting to appreciate that experience, if that makes sense.

John [00:41:32]: If it's given. I appreciate the thing.

Nicole [00:41:35]: Right.

John [00:41:36]: That's where it's. Because you just have to be careful to not expect it.

Nicole [00:41:41]: Or. Yeah.

John [00:41:43]: Or. Yeah. Or. Yeah. To change your actions based on whether or not it's. You know, because the role of the parent is to love, to give, to sacrifice. It's not to get at it anyway. Like, if you get, sure, great, appreciate it. Good. But to set the expectation correctly because otherwise you're going to be sorely disappointed. Right. As a parent. Because it is an entirely selfless act with no benefit for you at all, except the one benefit that all actions carry, which is knowing you're doing the right thing. Like the action of, like, the benefit of the reward in the action itself. But. Yeah, but as long as you come from that place, then the parenting decisions. That's why a lot of people, like you said, they look at us. They're like, oh, it's strict or crazy. It's like, no, no. It's coming from the place of wanting what's best for the child. And it's not like we don't tell our child also how much we love her. We do. We make it clear in discipline.

Nicole [00:43:00]: We make it clear, even in some instances, that no one listening to this right now would have handled the way that we've handled and still showed up that way.

John [00:43:09]: Yeah. Yeah. Because that's authentic.

Nicole [00:43:14]: Well, it's just who we are.

John [00:43:16]: Yeah. Yeah. Because we have that standard. But. But. Yeah, but that's. That's the. The key.

Nicole [00:43:26]: What else?

John [00:43:26]: I don't know. I don't. I think that. I think that. I mean that.

Nicole [00:43:32]: I mean, there's a lot that goes. Yeah, that's like, I guess the overall big picture.

John [00:43:37]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:43:37]: But there is a lot that goes into parenting.

John [00:43:39]: Yeah. There's. You can get into the specifics, but if you Understand the principles. Then I think it's like, well, like, even like we. We talked about in the previous episode about, like, how we had the rule about being on time. And then, like, if you're not on time, then, you know, you have to explain to the class why you're late and have that consequence. And it's like, if you understand that that's the loving thing to do because you're helping a child to, like, in their adult life, when, you know, to accept responsibility and to take responsibility for and to realize there are consequences for their actions, then it's, you know, it. Like, we don't need to get into the, like, the specifics of it. Like, you don't need to have, you know, it becomes apparent that why you would have that consequence.

Nicole [00:44:29]: Right. You know, it makes sense.

John [00:44:30]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:44:31]: And it goes into other areas of life that are very beneficial and that you. That does start in childhood to learn these things. And it makes it a lot easier for kids if they already have learned a lot of this stuff at an earlier age rather than, you know, I mean, I was a responsible kid, so I got up and I would have to sometimes wake my brother up. But it's like, even some of the things that I didn't have as much structure would have helped me. Yeah, Like, I wanted to learn the things as I got older. So it's a little bit different, but with a little bit more structure, it would have been even more beneficial to me as a kid going into being an adult, you know, And I mean, I had to learn the hard way, like, being on time. Like, I was always early because as a kid, my mom was never on time. And so I had to learn from, like, other people's actions how to do that. You know, like, if I had just like, maybe had to talk to the class a few times, I probably would have had to learn that way, you know, if I couldn't get up on my own. So you learn one way or another. But it is helpful, like, to help your child learn these things in a way, especially still giving them loving support through it.

John [00:45:57]: Because it's not just the lessons of, like, being on time, but it's the way. Which is more important, I would say, is the way the parenting is handled, which is going to, in turn, influence their own psychology of how they parent themselves as a person. That's true, because we're not just trying to get the result of be on time. What we're trying to get the result of is that when I make mistakes, there are consequences that I need to pay. But I'm not a bad person. I'm still loved, but I still need to pay those consequences.

Nicole [00:46:32]: Right. I just made a mistake.

John [00:46:34]: Because that's the internal psychology that we're trying to promote that will produce all the external results, you know, which is why the. The method of, like, how you parent is so important. Because it's not about the result. It's about the psychology that you're instilling in the child.

Nicole [00:46:51]: Because they have to parent well and helping them. I mean, I do think the. The being on time. Yes. It's not the main thing, but.

John [00:46:58]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:46:58]: That is a core thing that you would want your child to learn so that they don't show up to work late and get fired and deal with, like, big. And then they're not gonna have somebody that's gonna be like, yeah, probably very understanding or nice to them about it. You know what I mean? So giving them a safe place to learn these lessons.

John [00:47:19]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:47:19]: And make mistakes and like you said.

John [00:47:21]: Have consequences that are not as drastic as they will be.

Nicole [00:47:24]: Right. And still have support from the parents when they make a mistake.

John [00:47:28]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:47:29]: You know, and learn that they can recover from that. Learn resilience like that they can go through things and they have the support and they can figure it out.

John [00:47:39]: Yeah. And that you still be loved. Not a bad person. Make mistakes. Because good people make mistakes.

Nicole [00:47:47]: That's true.

John [00:47:48]: But then they own those mistakes. And then which.

Nicole [00:47:52]: That's another thing. Accountability.

John [00:47:54]: Accountability.

Nicole [00:47:56]: Children.

John [00:47:57]: Yeah. Because those are some of the things that you have to teach a child is accountability to take responsibility for that. Because they want to blame everyone else.

Nicole [00:48:05]: And adults do it too. But it's like, the.

John [00:48:07]: Why are you doing this to me?

Nicole [00:48:08]: That continue to do it, typically are the adults that continue to do it.

John [00:48:12]: I remember a long time ago, we had a discussion with Sophia, and she was like, why would you do the. Pick the one thing that would hurt me the most? Like, you want to hurt me the most? And it's like, no, I. Like, that's the. Exactly. You got it. I want to pick the one thing that's going to hurt you the most. Not for the sake of hurting you, but for the sake of. It's what will actually make you listen. Like, it will actually bring the discipline out. That has to be. You know, it's like. So that's the difficulty of it is that it's not like discipline is not a fun process to go through when we go through it ourselves, but we have to tolerate it because it is important to us.

Nicole [00:49:05]: Well. And We've had to make bigger disciplinary actions more recently than the one that you're talking about.

John [00:49:12]: Yeah, we had. Yeah, we had to make some pretty.

Nicole [00:49:14]: And that was really hard. And it's still hard.

John [00:49:16]: It's hard because. Yeah, because you don't want to do it. Like, you don't want to see a child have to go through any kind of pain. You want to give them everything in the world, but if you give them everything in the world that is not loving.

Nicole [00:49:28]: Right.

John [00:49:29]: Them. That's the thing you have to recognize is it's like, you know, they.

Nicole [00:49:33]: Then they can't. They don't. If you give a child everything, they don't have trust in themselves.

John [00:49:40]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:49:41]: And that is what they need in order to grow up as well, too. Like, they need to feel like they trust themselves to figure it out, to be able to do it. When you do everything for a kid or you give them everything, they don't appreciate anything in the way of, like, oh, wow, this took this to get this big thing, or it took this to get to this goal, or it took this to do this. And then they also don't feel like they can do it because they haven't had to. So, like, if you just give them whatever, they're like, oh, I can just get it. I don't have to do anything.

John [00:50:18]: Yeah, that's a big thing. Is like, even, like, you know, adult children, right. Like, parents make the mistake of keep on enabling because they're like, well, they're gonna just live in the street. Yeah, they're gonna have to live in the street if that's what it takes for some time, which is hard because otherwise what's going to happen when you're gone? Then they are going to live in the street and they're not going to learn the lesson and they're going to be older. So better they live in the street now, like, and have the consequences. It doesn't mean that you don't ever, like, you know, bail a child out of a situation, but if you constantly do that and they haven't learned a lesson from it, you know, but. But again, it starts from. From childhood. It doesn't, you know, you know, you're gonna. You're gonna create an adult child where you're gonna keep on enabling them. If you don't start with the discipline young. Because that's what it comes from. It comes from trying to spare someone of their consequences. And when you spare someone of their consequences, it's a selfish act because you take on their consequences and they still have to suffer them.

Nicole [00:51:28]: Right.

John [00:51:28]: Because you can't.

Nicole [00:51:28]: You know, it's like, well, they didn't learn anything.

John [00:51:30]: Exactly.

Nicole [00:51:31]: Yeah.

John [00:51:31]: You take it on and they're still gonna suffer them eventually. Like, it's just. It just payback later down the road, so.

Nicole [00:51:37]: That's true.

John [00:51:38]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:40]: Yeah, but. And I mean, being a step parent as well is. Is different in a way of like, yeah, I came in not at the beginning.

John [00:51:49]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:51:49]: And I might have some influence now, but I didn't have it in very formative years. And so it's like, it is a lot different.

John [00:51:59]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:01]: A parenting perspective. Not in the sense of, like, all the things that we're talking about, but in the sense of, like, you're, like, talking about, like, you know, they're learning this from a young age, and I wasn't around for that young of an age. So, you know, it's just. I'm just glad that I have your support. And like you said, like, it's a hard. You are there and we are a team.

John [00:52:25]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:52:25]: Because.

John [00:52:26]: And you.

Nicole [00:52:27]: At times, I'm like, I. It's definitely the hardest thing I've ever done.

John [00:52:31]: Well, that's why it's so important, like, I back you no matter what. Even if you're wrong, I'm still going to back you, because that's. Yeah, but. Just kidding. You know, if you were, you know, human. But I'm still going to back you. Right. Because that's. That's the. The way that. Because we're one. Exactly.

Nicole [00:52:49]: Yeah.

John [00:52:50]: Internally, we can have a discussion, but to the world, we're one unified front always, so.

Nicole [00:52:58]: Except on some of the podcasts where we're debating.

John [00:53:00]: Well, yeah, that's for the. For the purpose of. Of debate, but. Yeah, but. Yeah, but no, you've done an amazing, amazing job.

Nicole [00:53:09]: I appreciate you saying.

John [00:53:10]: Yeah, and it's like. I think. I think of it as. It's like, you know, maybe you didn't start the book, but maybe you picked up at chapter four or whatever. But it doesn't change the role. You know, it's like, now you're reading the book.

Nicole [00:53:31]: Yeah.

John [00:53:31]: You know, and it's still the same. It's just, you know, where you came into the story, so.

Nicole [00:53:38]: That's true. Well, I've told Sophia at times, too, that she doesn't even realize how great of a dad that she has in you, and that's true. But I think she will, and I think she does. Yeah, but.

John [00:53:51]: But it doesn't. It doesn't matter, does it?

Nicole [00:53:54]: I know you don't care about that. But you are a phenomenal dad. And any girl specifically, I mean boys too, but any girl would love to have a dad like you.

John [00:54:05]: What's most important though is when you're making those. Because I had to make some tough decisions, parenting decisions recently and the thing that allowed me to do it was knowing that I'm like, is having the condition of me feeling good about myself, being that I'm doing the right thing, not the response.

Nicole [00:54:36]: Right.

John [00:54:37]: Because if it was tied to the response, if I was like, oh, she hates me, she thinks I'm the most horrible dad in the world, I wouldn't carry through with it. But I have to tie it to. I know what I'm doing is right. I know that I'm a good father. That's how we have to be as parents is. I know I don't need someone to tell me it. I know it like. And you know, you can be arrogant and be wrong, but you know deeply. Are you coming from a place of love when you're disciplining? Right. Are you, you know, are you doing the right choices that are self sacrificial for the benefit of the child? If you're doing that all the time, then you can stand in that conviction and you can make those tough choices. But if you, if you don't have that conviction, you're going to crumble and you're not going to make the right choices when you need to, you know, so. All right. I think that pretty much, yeah. And we don't really, I mean, we didn't have anything last week, so. We don't have anything.

Nicole [00:55:42]: No.

John [00:55:42]: Yeah. I mean, just the parenting stuff that we've had to deal with, which we've kind of talked about. It's been, it's been a lot.

Nicole [00:55:48]: It's been, it's been a lot. A lot.

John [00:55:50]: Yeah.

Nicole [00:55:51]: But you know, we couldn't do it without you.

John [00:55:53]: Yeah, likewise, that's for sure. I mean, having your support, you know, making those tough decisions is really key to me as well. So. Yeah. All right. Well, hopefully that we've helped you to be a better parent to not just your child, but to yourself. I think that's really the key because when you do that, then you'll respond to the other people like however you treat yourself is how you're going to treat other people. And so if you're a bad parent to yourself, you're going to be not the kindest other people do. So.

Nicole [00:56:27]: That's true.

John [00:56:27]: Yeah. All right, well, if you have a question for us, you can always email us@betterthanperfectpodcastmail.com or you can go to the website betterthanperfectpod.com and subscribe to our newsletter.

Nicole [00:56:43]: You get some sent all the videos when they come out?

John [00:56:45]: Exactly. So. All right, we'll see you next week.