John [00:00:00]: It's a lot to put on a woman's shoulders to be like, if you just did this, if you just supported him, he would thrive. Because there are plenty of women who. And I was one of those women who financially also supported that man.

Nicole [00:00:13]: See, that's not.

John [00:00:14]: When he didn't have the ability, and he still didn't live up to anything.

Nicole [00:00:19]: That's not supporting. Not in the way I'm talking about. Not in the way that a man needs. You want to do the opposite of that?

John [00:00:25]: Oh, trust me, I know that that was not a good idea. But I was young and not very.

Nicole [00:00:30]: I'm just saying, like, on the perfect, we discover through our flaws, we complete each other. Better than perfect, we stay through every.

John [00:00:43]: Fault, we find our way.

Nicole [00:00:48]: Welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

John [00:01:00]: He got me there for a second. I was like, like, is it. Oh, he's got it. Yeah, he's got it.

Nicole [00:01:06]: Yeah. So we're back in this studio. We're back. It feels like it's.

John [00:01:10]: Well, we were back last time.

Nicole [00:01:12]: No, we. We weren't last week. Well, yeah. Well, yeah, but we. We didn't. We didn't record last week, but that's.

John [00:01:20]: Why I was in town.

Nicole [00:01:21]: Yeah. Yeah, we went on a cruise and.

John [00:01:23]: My parents were in town, too, so. Which John wanted them to come on the podcast? My mom said her PO fasting days are over.

Nicole [00:01:31]: I think we could have convinced. Maybe next time.

John [00:01:34]: Yeah, maybe next time.

Nicole [00:01:36]: But then also, what will we talk about? I don't know. I mean, I'm sure there's.

John [00:01:39]: Well, I think we. We're gonna do, like, how dating and stuff has changed since they dating. But.

Nicole [00:01:46]: But.

John [00:01:47]: So leave comments saying that you want my parents to come on the podcast and I'll show them.

Nicole [00:01:52]: Yeah.

John [00:01:54]: Then they can't say no.

Nicole [00:01:55]: Right.

John [00:01:55]: It's kind of like when you were a kid and you were like, go ask my parents if you can stay over to, like, your friend. You know, they can't say no if you guys want them to come on. Right.

Nicole [00:02:05]: Let's just show them the comments and be like, look, See, people want you.

John [00:02:09]: Yeah, exactly.

Nicole [00:02:10]: You gotta do it.

John [00:02:11]: So that might work. But yeah. So what is the topic for today?

Nicole [00:02:18]: Yeah, so I thought we'd do a topic on. I don't know how to exactly. I mean, it's the roles in a relationship or in a marriage. Right. Between the man and the woman. Like, what. What is ideal for the Roles. Right. So.

John [00:02:35]: Well, should we talk about the ending thing in the beginning since it's inspired?

Nicole [00:02:41]: Yeah, I guess so. I guess we'll talk about our.

John [00:02:44]: That we face.

Nicole [00:02:45]: Yeah. What we face this week. Yeah. So, yeah, we had a little bit of a. Of a discussion this week, and, I mean, what it really came down to is kind of why we're doing this episode, which is just talking about the. Is the roles of, like, what is. You know, what is a woman supposed to be doing in. In their relationship? Like, what is the man's role? What is. You know, because I think there is a lot of confusion. So we, you know, got into that a little bit and. But worked it out. I'm. I'm trying to think, like, what. How to describe. Like, I don't even remember what happened or the roles or. Yeah. What happened. I'm trying. I don't even remember what. The beginning.

John [00:03:30]: Well, I was fearful of, like, conflict arising because of, you know, things that happened in the past. And I knew that they weren't happening actively, but I was still afraid that they would happen. And then I brought it up to you in the wrong way. And then we kind of spiraled from there on the crazy cycle. And then you felt like I wasn't really listening to you or empathizing with your side of the whole situation. And then I realized that. That I wasn't doing it in the right way and that I didn't really. Like, I can understand the concept of doing it, but I never really knew how to do it, never really saw it happening, never really experienced it, even myself to the degree that you were explaining until I was with you. So, yeah, it was just a lot of realizing that I was also shutting myself off to try to protect myself, which then also made you feel like I was distant from you.

Nicole [00:04:46]: Exactly. Yeah.

John [00:04:47]: So it was just a lot of things, which is how, like, I've always operated, and it's a defense mechanism and, you know, all those things. So it was a. Like, long. Not as long.

Nicole [00:05:02]: Not as long. No, not as long.

John [00:05:03]: But it was a long conversation. But it was beneficial.

Nicole [00:05:10]: Yeah. Yeah. Because I think we cut through a lot of. It's crazy how, you know, just. It's funny because I think two nights ago I was like, oh, we get along so well. We have worked out, like. I think we've reached perfection now.

John [00:05:24]: So you're the one jinxing us.

Nicole [00:05:25]: I jinxed it, Right? Remember, like, two nights ago? No, no, I said it, like, two nights ago. Or. But. But the thing is, it is funny how There's. You're still growing and still learning and, you know, and working through issues. But. But it was. It was really helpful to me because there were some things that I was frustrated by that I feel like got resolved that weren't. It wasn't like it was, you know, something that was just. I don't know how to describe it. Like. Like our relationship is really good almost all the time. Right. So. But there's always, like, little things that we have to fix and work on.

John [00:06:05]: And figure out, and they feel really big because there's not as big of problems, if that makes sense. Like, we've talked about this with each other before, but I don't know if we've talked about it on here that. Because the vast majority of the time, things are so good when even something little happens, it feels bigger than it is.

Nicole [00:06:30]: Exactly.

John [00:06:31]: And that's not to say we haven't dealt with actual big things like we have.

Nicole [00:06:35]: Right.

John [00:06:35]: But it's just that when you have such a close connection and deep intimacy, like, the little things you want to bring up and resolve and, you know, not let them grow into bigger things.

Nicole [00:06:49]: Yeah.

John [00:06:50]: So.

Nicole [00:06:51]: Yeah. And so. Yeah. So that's. And it's funny because I was talking to one of my coaching clients, actually, on the relationship coaching, and he was saying, I don't know, like, why I get. I'm getting so, like, hurt by every little thing. And I was like, it's because you're so close now. Like, because we. I was working with him and helped him restore the relationship and get it to a point where they're really, really close, more intimate than they had ever been in. So now it is true. Now it's like any little disturbance, you feel it more. You do, so.

John [00:07:32]: Which, you know, I don't even think that's a bad thing, because then I think it's easier for you not to sweep things under the rug because even little things bother you enough to talk about it.

Nicole [00:07:42]: Yeah.

John [00:07:43]: So it is a good thing. Even though it might feel like, he said, like, this is sucks, like, caring so much about every little thing, but at the same time, that's why the good parts are so good and they feel so good and.

Nicole [00:07:59]: Right.

John [00:07:59]: You're so happy in those moments is because everything is intensified because you have that deep connection.

Nicole [00:08:05]: Yeah. Because what happens if you don't like, then. I think a lot of people are used to operating in a mode in the relationship where they're just kind of ignoring things. It's just not worth the hassle. It's like this is just, you know, and, and that you're not that close. Like you're, if you're, if you're close enough, then you can't, because it's affecting that closeness. Right. So if you get into a mode where you're not very close, where you've lost some of that intimacy, you're just used to operating in that mode, and then the things that they do don't affect you as much because it only really affects you when you are that close because it, that thing breaks the closeness and you feel it. So.

John [00:08:46]: Yeah, well. And I'm sure people feel hopeless too, in a different situation. They're like, I've brought this up how many times? And nothing keeps happening, like, changing. So I get to that. People kind of start to pick their own battles. But like you said, that's not necessarily the way that it should be. And I understand if one person's trying and the other person's not or, you know, whatever the situation might be. But like you said, the, the best way is to talk about all the things because then you will work through them rather than keeping them inside all bottled up, and then you're going to explode and then that's going to cause more problems.

Nicole [00:09:26]: Exactly. Yeah. So, so, yeah, so that was our, our thing that, in our end segment, but it kind of led to, and part of the conversation was about the roles, and that's where I came up with this topic as, you know, what is a man supposed to do in their relationship? What is a woman supposed to do? And, and it's, and, and we had a good discussion about it and we can echo some of that here and then hit the man side too, because we, we were hitting mostly on the, on the woman side. But, you know, when we first got together, when we first really became a couple, the thing I, I said to you was, you know, I only need two things from you, which is one, to support me as, as a man, and, and to the, you know, the sexual. To show me the sexual desire and interest that, you know, that motivates me, that gives me confidence in it. Like basically those two things, right? You know, however you want to describe it. That's how I described it at that, at that point. But it's, it's interesting how. I don't know that. I think a lot of, a lot of people don't understand that. It gets lost. It's not well understood. Like why, why is that the case? Right? Because. Does that make sense or, you know, and again, we have a lot of like 5050 couples where they're both contributing to the household income. Right. But when a, when a man is the sole provider and the protector, then what he needs from a woman is the full support to make him stronger. Right. To make him be able to go out and face the world. And so that's what I want to kind of break down is like, how, how does that look? Why does it exist that way? Right. What are the difficulties, you know, in, in, in trying to implement that. So.

John [00:11:19]: Well, go ahead.

Nicole [00:11:19]: Okay. Well, I mean, I think maybe we can start by talking about what the, what the role, what the role is like, what the role is for a man, what the role is for a woman, ideally. Right. And I think for a man, the role. And this is something that we talk about a lot on the podcast. I think we talk more about the man role than the woman role. But is, he needs to be the. And this is ideal. Right. So not everyone can be there at this point, but this is where you should be shooting for the sole financial provider for the house. Right. He's the one who goes out and he interfaces with the world. He faces the world. He makes the money, he takes care of the household, not just his wife, but the family, children, financially creates the physical safety for everyone, the protector, the emotional safety, especially for the woman, to make sure that she feels emotionally safe and she can be delicate and vulnerable. And he provides the leadership, the instruction, how are things going to go, the direction, the decisions that need to be made, setting the course. And really, I would say his role is to shield his, his wife or woman. I always say woman because some people have girlfriends and some people have fiances and some so wives. So woman, you know, he, he shields his wife, his woman from the outside world so that she doesn't get all the stress from the outside world. She doesn't have to deal with the financial situations and the complexities of the outside world. He's providing a shield from that to make her life as stress free as possible. And that's what, what he's supposed to do. Did I leave anything out or is that.

John [00:13:15]: I don't think so.

Nicole [00:13:17]: Right. I think that's right. And then on the woman's side, it's more of the support of that. Right. So if the man is the head of the household, if he's the, the outward facing conqueror who's making the money, then the woman's role in that relationship is to fuel him up. I, I think I was talking about like, like a rocket in one of the episodes where that it's she's the rocket fuel, right? So a man on his own, he can. And that's why a lot of men are like, well, why do I need a woman? Why do I need to get married? You know, he's like, I can make money. I can pay for maid service and clothes and like. And I can, you know, do do all these things. I don't need a woman. If I want to have sex, I can pay for that or I can, you know, I don't have to marry or commit to a woman. But the answer is because, yeah, a man can do those things on his own, but a woman behind him gives him the fuel, support to be able to do that mission, whether that be, you know, mostly in the emotional support of making him feel admired, making him feel strong, making him relax, like, replenishing his energy so he can go out and face the world and go and fight the battles that need to be fought. And so she's creating that for him in order to give him more energy to be able to do that. And it becomes a multiplier. And so the woman's role is more of the support of that man that is providing the income and the protection in that. And then of course, obviously the children and the household and taking care of that. But the main job, when we look at the relationship or the main role, look at the relationship, is for her to support him so that he can go out and do the things. Because if he has a good woman behind him supporting him, then he's got that focus, that energy, the confidence to go and conquer the world. And I think that the thing that it was, you know, that I think is confusing about it is like, why, right? Because, you know, and that's where that multiplicative effect is, right? Because a man on his own, he can make money, he can take care of his household or whatever, he can take care of himself. A woman on her own, she can do that. Today, a woman can make money. A woman can get a job, she can be extremely successful, she can run and manage her household, know, but if you take two and you combine them and put them in the same household, you. You do get a double effect, right? It's. It's twice, right? He's making money, she's making money, she's taking care of some things in the house, he's taking care of some things, which is. Is fine. It, you know, but it. You're not getting any synergistic benefit from that, right? Whereas if you have a man taking the role of being the sole Financial provider and responsible. And the woman not doing that role, but instead doing the role of support. And all her energy, or majority of her energy is put into supporting him. It's, it's a multiplicative effect. It's synergistic, where now he can do 3, 4, 5, 10 times as much or be 10 times as effective as he could on his own or she could on her own. And that's why. And that's also why, you know, when you look at wealth, right. People who are in the millionaire multimillionaire status, almost all of them are married. A big majority of people that are financially successful are married and a lot of them are sole income households because that system works better than just combining things together.

John [00:17:14]: Makes sense.

Nicole [00:17:16]: What are your. I talked a lot.

John [00:17:19]: I mean, I figured you were going to be talking a lot though, because you talked about it a lot.

Nicole [00:17:23]: Yeah.

John [00:17:24]: Even when we had a conversation, I mean, I feel like it all makes sense. I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. I feel like I do kind of have to go back to the point of women being afraid of men holding things over their head.

Nicole [00:17:42]: Yeah.

John [00:17:43]: And I feel like, especially when they're upset maybe and they are doing all this stuff, they do tend to throw that at a woman and that pushes her more towards doing things on her own, getting her own stuff, because she's afraid of things being held against her. And I think though, like in our situation, you don't do that. And so it is easier to support you and be there for you. And even I wasn't doing it to the level that you needed when I felt like I was supporting you. And I have done a lot to do that. But, you know, it's not about what I think I'm doing. It's about what you need and fulfilling those needs so that you can feel better and be able to do the things that you need to do.

Nicole [00:18:37]: Yeah. And I agree. I mean, I do think that it can be something that is. Well, I think the thing about holding it against or holding it over someone's head, it comes from a thinking of not truly thinking of it as a, as a team, as one unit. Like we did that episode on Oneness. And either person can be guilty of this. Right. But as a man, if you understand that, look, it's not about her. It's not about, you know, I did this, so you need to do this. Right. It's about, look, I'm the part of this team that's going out and facing the world. She's the Part that's giving me the fuel to be able to do that. If this part of the team's not functioning well, I don't shit on this part of the team. I help this part of the team because that part of the team helps me. You know what I mean? And so if you're holding something over someone's head and being like, well, I did this, so you need to do this, then it's not. That's not that. Because that's not gonna bring that person. Get you what you need in order to. For the team to be. Because you're. Because you're both going to succeed or fail together. Right. Right. And I think. Yeah.

John [00:19:52]: I think, though, in a conversation, especially when people are frustrated, though, that doesn't. That isn't how it goes. You know what I mean? And it does go a lot of the time, like you said, it could be a man or a woman with someone being like, I do this, so you need to do this, or something like that. And that, I guess, too, I'm speaking for women, one, because I'm a woman. And two, because of just the history of relationships where women were in situations where they did have to just marry somebody.

Nicole [00:20:24]: Yeah.

John [00:20:24]: And they had to take whatever treatment they got because they just didn't have any other option, really. And I'm not saying that that's how it is now, but I'm saying that I think those times and hearing those stories, kind of like the stories that men hear, make women more afraid.

Nicole [00:20:41]: Yeah.

John [00:20:42]: Of being put in those situations. And I can understand it, too, because the next episode we're going to be doing, we're going to talk more about this.

Nicole [00:20:52]: Yeah.

John [00:20:52]: But it is more dangerous for a woman to be in a situation with a man that might hold things against her or, you know, in a extreme case. I'm not saying that this is the norm, like, be dangerous or, you know, or turn into an abusive husband or something like that. So. And normally someone who holds things against you like that there is some sort of abuse sort of thing. Like, not all the time, but.

Nicole [00:21:23]: Yeah.

John [00:21:23]: Like, even acting that way is emotional, emotionally manipulative. And so I think that's where two women are more hesitant with that kind of stuff.

Nicole [00:21:36]: Yeah.

John [00:21:37]: I know this isn't really, like, exactly what we're talking about.

Nicole [00:21:40]: Well, give me the example of holding it so that we can put it into, like, how does a man do this? Like, using. Abusing this hill.

John [00:21:49]: I think I did it when we were on vacation, too. But, you know, a man's like, oh, let's go on this nice vacation. And you know, I planned all this. And then when you guys get in an argument, he's like, after everything I did for you, I just planned this whole vacation. And you're going to yell at. You're going to be upset at me over this. Like, I did this. So you should be able to do this. Like, it's taking something that he's done and he gifted you and now used it as manipulation for what? Yes. And like, okay, now you have to do this.

Nicole [00:22:25]: Right, Exactly. Okay.

John [00:22:27]: So, yeah, like, that, I feel like, is what women get.

Nicole [00:22:32]: Yeah.

John [00:22:32]: Afraid of. And like you said, if it's come at. Though the way that you described it and the way that we, you know, kind of went about the things is that we're helping each other and that's how it should be.

Nicole [00:22:46]: Exactly. Yeah.

John [00:22:46]: And I feel like if. And like I said, I guess this is what started the whole tangent. But what women are afraid of is when men get upset that they're gonna go straight to, I did this for you. You need to do this for me. Rather than, hey, like, I'm not feeling supported, but we're a team. So, like, I want you to know that this isn't happening and I have needs that aren't being met.

Nicole [00:23:13]: Right.

John [00:23:14]: Let's talk about it. If there's any way that I can help you figure this out as well too. Let's figure it out. But it's like emotions are typically so high by the time resentment has build or built or things like that. And that's why we were talking about. Just talk about it right away. That it typically goes the wrong way. Even if you do want to view it as a team. Right. Like, sometimes you're just so frustrated and so upset that you do say things.

Nicole [00:23:40]: That you don't that come across that way.

John [00:23:43]: Mean to say. Yeah. In that manner.

Nicole [00:23:46]: So. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I think it's like, well, like, you know, like I was saying with the team, but it's. It's more like the approach should be more like, I want to be able to make the most money for our house and provide for us and to be able to, you know, to function at my best for us so we can have a better life, so that you can enjoy the things that you like to enjoy. The kids can be taken care of. All of these things can be handled. However, my tank is low, and in order to do that, I need the support to be able to give me the ability to do that to the. To the ability that I want to and that you deserve, you know?

John [00:24:34]: Right.

Nicole [00:24:34]: And that's, that's a better way than saying, you know, than the holding against. Because like you said, because if you're, if, if you're giving something and then you think that. And now it becomes transactional where it's like, now there's actually a cost to it. It's like, oh, it's like, right. You know, you give someone a free sample and then you're like, dude, so.

John [00:24:56]: Now, well, then they're not going to want you to do those things. And now you're creating other problems, actually, because now you're using the things that you do that you're supposedly doing the kindness of your own heart.

Nicole [00:25:07]: Right.

John [00:25:08]: To back up your point. And so then it's like, are you just doing it to, to be able to use this against me later? You know what I mean? And like, women can do the same thing to men. I'm not saying that this is a man only thing or whatever, but I think that really also drives a wedge in between the people trying to have the conversation. Because then it does feel tit for tat, then everybody's getting defensive, right? And things like that. And so because I don't think women have an issue supporting a man that does make it feel like there's a team. Like, I feel like women have an issue supporting men who are like, I do this all day. Like, what are you doing? Like, I do this for you. What are you doing? Like, I understand that, like, at the core that is the problem. But also, like, a lot of men just blurt out what they feel, right?

Nicole [00:26:07]: Like, sure, yeah.

John [00:26:08]: And so that comes out. And even though they're meaning it to try to work together as a team, it's coming out wrong.

Nicole [00:26:17]: Right.

John [00:26:17]: You know what I mean? And so she's taking it literally. And then now she feels like you're holding things against her. So now she doesn't want you to take her on vacation. She doesn't want you to do the things that you're throwing back in her face. Right?

Nicole [00:26:29]: Right.

John [00:26:30]: So, like, that's why I understand it's hard to do in the moment, but you do have to try to work together on something as a team. And even if the man is voicing his frustrations like that in the wrong way, a woman can kind of try to turn it around. Which I wish I had thought to do this when we were having our conversation, but I guess I did kind of at the end. But by being like, I hear what you're saying, how can I help you do this? Right. And I understand that men aren't gonna want to be like this, do this, this, and this. Because then you're like, are you just doing this because I told you to do it? Because women have the same sort of thought process too, when they tell men to do things.

Nicole [00:27:15]: For sure. Yeah.

John [00:27:16]: But at the same time, I do feel like it is important for the person who is talking about that their needs aren't being met to do at least give some examples. Because, yeah, at the end of the day, as a woman, I'm trying my hardest to understand your needs and what you need and what that looks like. But at the end of the day, I'm a woman. And still my woman brain kicks in and I'm like, oh, he would want me to bring him a cupcake. And that would make him feel so loved and supported. And you might be like, that was nice, but I'd rather you just give me a hug and sit with me on the couch. You know what I mean? So it's like someone can still be really trying to support the person.

Nicole [00:28:00]: Yeah.

John [00:28:01]: But still be doing it wrong, but it's not malicious. You know what I mean? So that's why it is important. And even in our conversation, I was like, I need you to at least give me some sort of ideas because I need to know what makes you feel supported the most.

Nicole [00:28:17]: Yeah, it's kind of like the love languages that we were talking about in the last week where, you know, it's someone else's love language might be different, but.

John [00:28:25]: Right, exactly.

Nicole [00:28:26]: Because you have to know what. And I think part of that too comes from the confusion, just like I said, with the roles itself. Right. Because, you know, if a guy's like, well, I work all day, right. And I do all this stuff. So a woman might say, well, is he saying that I need to be working to you? Or like, is, is he saying, it's not fair because I'm not working or because I'm not cleaning up the house or whatever? Like, and it's like are doing all these activities or doing stuff. And, and, and, and for some guys, that is what they mean. Which is not. That's not smart because that's not what you need as a man. Right. You know, it's like, you don't need her to make more money or to start her own business or to do that stuff. That's not what's going to help you as much as what is, is what you think. You know, a lot of young guys that are, you know, thinking, oh, well, if we had two people making money, then that would. And it. And to a degree, it's true. But if you had a woman that's supporting you so that you could make ten times as much money, that's better, right? And so I think that's where the confusion comes, is that that role for a woman is. Is fairly simple. It doesn't. It doesn't have to be all that other stuff. It's not on an equal level. We talked about, I think, in another podcast episode maybe two weeks ago, about how in a man's world, in a man's mind, it's all about being productive and what are you doing and what are you accomplishing and making money. And a lot of men judge women by that. And that's not the standard to judge a woman by. But I think understanding that role, because if you as a woman don't understand that role and what is actually important to support the man, then you're going to think, oh, well, I guess I need to be doing all this other stuff too, right?

John [00:30:16]: Women are confused. Like, and they do think that. Because men have made them think that, if I'm being honest, like, that's also why, too, when a guy says that, she goes straight to, okay, I should get a job then. Or, like, because it also sounds like he's complaining. And a lot of men do complain about women not having a job or making money or they call them dependence or, you know, like, women are seeing all this stuff, right? So it's not like it's coming out of nowhere. And again, like, she shouldn't base her actual relationship on the things that she's hearing on the Internet. But most women have faced those sort of comments, and then they have also realized, okay, well, if I. Then I do bring 50, 50 to this relationship, I've 50% of the say, and he doesn't have a hundred. And if he's talking to me like this, then.

Nicole [00:31:09]: Right.

John [00:31:09]: I don't want him to have a 100. You know what I mean? But it is. Men are perpetuating women acting this way. They might come for me in the comments with their pitchforks, but it is the truth. And it goes back to a lot of other episodes that we've done that they need to value femininity, right? They need to value what makes a woman a woman. Because even in the conversation we had the other night, and I think this is so important to bring up, you told me to. That it's okay to be needy.

Nicole [00:31:44]: Exactly. Yeah.

John [00:31:45]: I feel like every woman. Here's the exact opposite. And you even asked me, and I said, a woman shouldn't be needy until she's, like, married in a committed relationship. Because that, like, yeah, the way you explained it, you're like, it makes me feel closer to you, right? But in the beginning, it actually repels men away. So it is a weird balance, right? And so when you asked me that, I'm like, it's still. It's hard for women to go from, yeah, don't be needy. And especially men are also telling women, don't be needy.

Nicole [00:32:25]: Right?

John [00:32:27]: And then. But then you're like, be needy.

Nicole [00:32:30]: And I'm like, I got the answer for you. All right? So if I, as a man. Well, and there was two pieces to it, because we did talk about the, the needy, but that pretending like you're not needy, right? So that's, that repulses. Maybe we'll start with that one. So the first one is, and we talked about this, is that when you're needy, but then you're acting like you're not or that you don't need. You know, it's a weird thing, but people do it, right?

John [00:32:56]: Well, you can tell the difference between, like, when it's, like, people who are really needy and are trying to act cool about it, you know, not needy, that's.

Nicole [00:33:04]: That's repulsive because it's like, I want you to. I want you to help me out or to be with me or to. But I don't want you to. But I don't want to drop the pride to admit that I want that.

John [00:33:20]: Right?

Nicole [00:33:20]: And that's repulsive. Right? That's what that neediness is, Repulsive. Right. But I think the real answer comes down to this. If I, as a man have stepped up and said, I, I take. I wasn't gonna say. I was gonna say ownership, but I take accountability for you as, As a human. Like, I, like, you're my wife or you're my girlfriend or whatever it is, but I am going to protect and provide for you. Like, you're under my wing, right? Then being needy is great because that's what you want as a man. If you are in that role. And this if, if a, A person is under your protection, for them to come to you and be like, I need your protection. Please help me. Like, I, I, I want you, like, I appreciate you, like, you know, to, to say, I, I, I'm scared. I need you to help me out. You. That, that makes you feel good. That makes you men. The key thing to Men. Psychology is. Men need to feel useful. Right. It makes them feel useful. But if I, but if that's not the case, which is like before you get married or whatever, take the relationship that level, then the neediness doesn't. Doesn't quite hit. Then, then it. Then it's more of a, like a red flag type of issue.

John [00:34:38]: There's another problem.

Nicole [00:34:39]: Okay.

John [00:34:40]: Because going back to what we talked about, too. So if you're needy and you ask a man to help with things and then he holds them against you, that's also why women don't want to be needy. And that's also what they're afraid of. So I'm. I'm just trying to.

Nicole [00:35:00]: Yeah, I do give.

John [00:35:01]: Paint the full picture here because it's not black and white in a woman's mind. It's actually like every color that you could ever imagine. Because you feel like, especially as a woman, you feel like you have to make sure you're not making a choice that might be dangerous. You know what I mean?

Nicole [00:35:24]: How so?

John [00:35:26]: Like that you pick the right man.

Nicole [00:35:28]: Oh, yeah.

John [00:35:28]: To be with.

Nicole [00:35:29]: Yeah, of course.

John [00:35:29]: So it's like we do sometimes get mixed signals. And I know men get mixed signals. Signals from women, too. I'm not saying that that's not the case, but there have been times where people will be needy and then the things that they asked for are thrown back in their face. So it's like, how do you navigate that as a woman? How do you be needy and vulnerable? And I know you have to just do it is probably what you're just going to tell me. But as a woman, though, it does hurt and makes you want to go back to how you were and be more masculine. When you are vulnerable and someone takes the things you ask them for when they told you to ask for things, and then uses them against you. Does that make sense? Because I think when we had the whole episode about vulnerability, there's a difference, a different vulnerability to own up to something.

Nicole [00:36:28]: Yeah.

John [00:36:30]: But it's also different to have your vulnerability weaponized. And that's what that is. And so that instance.

Nicole [00:36:40]: Yeah.

John [00:36:40]: I feel like, would make women want to be less vulnerable.

Nicole [00:36:43]: Yeah.

John [00:36:44]: But like we mentioned that there is invulnerability to being vulnerable. But the thing is, any person, right. In general, right. If someone was like, be needy. Tell me what you. You need and I'll do it for you. And then everything was, like, held against them.

Nicole [00:37:00]: Okay.

John [00:37:00]: They would not do that anymore. And that's essentially what men have done to women. Right. Like the the men that haven't healed themselves well.

Nicole [00:37:13]: Okay, I, I think that there's an over caution or worry about this. That's so. And I think that that comes from depend on what we're saying is, is being neat, you know, needy quote, right? So just asking for things right? Can be the repulsive kind of needy.

John [00:37:37]: Like what kind of things? Like, help me open this jar.

Nicole [00:37:41]: Well, that's, I mean, that's probably not good, but it could be, it could be the repulsive kind of needy. If you're asking for that but you're not giving the credit of you're a big strong man and I can't do this myself and I need your help, right? That is not going to be held against you. It's not going to be, it's not.

John [00:38:02]: Going to be looked at. Some guys still could. I mean, they get pissed and they'll be like, you can't even open a jar.

Nicole [00:38:06]: I mean, that's, it's, it's.

John [00:38:08]: Don't act like guys wouldn't say something like that.

Nicole [00:38:10]: I know, but in general, it's not like it's, it's an actual vulnerability in actual. Right. But if it's like, you know, can you open this jar for me?

John [00:38:19]: And I just don't feel like it.

Nicole [00:38:20]: But I could, right? Then it's like, no, you have to acknowledge, like as a woman, you have to acknowledge, right? You have to acknowledge your man and be like, you're, you're bigger than me, you're stronger than me, you can work harder than me. Like you can, like you do this stuff. Like a man has to feel like a woman actually is, is needy to him, is vulnerable to him and because she needs him, not because she's just needy, right? And that's the difference. And when you come in that way, then it's instinctual. I've been coaching guys for a long time. Not just in the relationship. Coaching and relationship stuff comes up all the time. And I can tell you so many times where I talk to guys and it's like if a woman just understood that if she, instead of getting mad or however she's done the situation, if she just broke down and cried or was like, just like, oh, you know, I don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want to lose you. I don't. Like, I like I love you so much or I'm, you know, if she took that approach of what you would call needy, of seeming clingy or seeming weak or pathetic as, you know, some people would Say, like, if she took that approach, a man instantly melts and he feels like he has to take care of her and comfort her and make her feel better and protect her and. Forget what I was upset about. You're more important, right? Women have that secret power, and they don't realize they have that power. Right. Because I think. And I think a lot of it is.

John [00:40:02]: I think most women who use it, though, are manipulative.

Nicole [00:40:08]: Okay, well, like, I'm not saying.

John [00:40:11]: I want to be clear. I'm not saying that what you're saying is the wrong thing to do. It's the right thing to do.

Nicole [00:40:15]: Right.

John [00:40:16]: But I think that a good majority of women who use that.

Nicole [00:40:22]: Right.

John [00:40:23]: Because I can think of stories that I've heard, right. And that seemed very believable that certain women would do.

Nicole [00:40:33]: Right.

John [00:40:33]: Do exactly what you say after they've blown up and said things and yelled and, oh, sure, yeah, all of those things, and then gone to that. Because I think that a lot of time women use that to try to make up for all the horrible things that they did.

Nicole [00:40:48]: Right. And I agree. But that's why that has to be the. You can't use it in. As for bad, right? Any of these things could be used for manipulation. You shouldn't. You should use them for good, which means you go there first. You go to that place, you act that way. That's. That's the being feminine part, right. That a lot of women are afraid to show. But. But again, that is part of that role, of the support. Because, you know, when you come to me and you're like, john, you know, I like. And you're like, I'm struggling with this, or I'm. And you're just, like, coming to hug me or to, like, get me to hug you, because you need that comfort or support from me or whatever the issue is. I'm scared about this. I feel like this, you know, I. I'm going to respond like that. That not only am I going to respond, but it also makes me feel more useful, better, more. More confident as. As a man. I guess it empowers me because I know that I have you trusting and coming to me. You know what I mean? It's hard to describe, I think, but.

John [00:41:59]: No, I know what you're saying, but I still think that I would say a woman's biggest fear in doing that is it being held against her. Because I've even had women do that to me, right? Like, I've had a friend we, you know, dissolved a friendship, and then she would Throw back all the things that I confided in her.

Nicole [00:42:21]: Yeah.

John [00:42:21]: To hurt me. And so, like, I feel like that is what makes women afraid to appear needy or to be like, I need you. Like, tell. Like, I know so many women personally that don't even want to ask for help. Right, Right. Because they're afraid of many things. But I think the biggest thing is it being held against them. And so they'd rather just do it themselves.

Nicole [00:42:47]: Yeah.

John [00:42:47]: And that's also what's caused women, I think, in general to be more independent is because they don't want. I mean, you can go on any of our videos, probably, and see men even holding the things that I'm saying against me. And they don't even know me. And they didn't watch the full episode. They're just watching this clip.

Nicole [00:43:08]: Look, here's how I got. Because, I mean, I. I deal with this a lot with a lot of people, not just in relationship, in. In romantic relationships, but the holding against it is like, look, no one can hold something against you. They. They can think that they can hold something against you. But you know, what if I, If, If I go to, you know, whatever, if I give you something, right. If I, If I give someone. Let's say. Let's say this example. Let's say that you're walking down the street, right? And someone is like, hey, would you like a free sample of this candy or whatever it is? Or would you like this candy? Maybe they don't say the word free, right? And you're like, sure. And they give it to you and you eat it. And then they're like, okay, here's the bill. It's $10,000. They're trying to hold it. What are you going to do? You're going to laugh at that bill and be like, no, you just gave me. I'm not going to. I don't owe you anything for it. You didn't say, hey, this is what this cost. Do you want this? You gave it to me, right? So it's like, if you have that mindset, I know it still makes. It's still difficult, but in reality, no one can ever really hold anything against you.

John [00:44:18]: I mean, I agree with what you're saying, and you're right, but I do feel like it is different when it's the person you're spending your life with, and now they're bringing up all the things that they did for you to hold them against you to prove their point or to make you see something. Like, it just hurts more like it's easier to do what you said.

Nicole [00:44:44]: Right.

John [00:44:44]: Like, I don't think women necessarily have as much of a problem. They still might a little bit, but I think it's more so the people you care about.

Nicole [00:44:52]: Yeah.

John [00:44:53]: And the people closest to you doing that to you because one, you're afraid that they're going to continue to do it.

Nicole [00:45:01]: Right.

John [00:45:02]: And two, now you feel like, are they just doing things so they have an arsenal to hold against me when they're upset? Like, it, it in it invokes a lot more than the example that you gave. So yes, you're right that nobody can hold something against you if they can't. But at the same time, I don't know if that would also. Like having that knowledge would resolve the problem.

Nicole [00:45:30]: Okay, let me give you an example. Because sometimes I think you can feel like it's being held against you, but that's not what the objective is. Sometimes the objective is just to get the recognition or acknowledgement or appreciation. Right. So for instance, like we were talking about, and in our discussion, I had said, well, you know, I wake up at 5:40 in the morning and then I bring you coffee in the morning. And at first you said, well, you don't have to do that. Don't bring me coffee anymore. And my reaction was, no, it's so much better if you say, oh, wow, you do do that. I like that a lot. That's great. I appreciate that. Right. Because that's what I was really going for. Not to hold it against you, to be like, okay, since I bring you coffee, what are you going to do for me? Or like, you know, but more to say, this is how much I love you, this is how much I care for you. I want to be acknowledged for that. I want to feel like. Because I think the thing about that, the danger of it and the reason why I bring this up is because yes, someone can hold things against you, but also if you're in the mind frame of worrying about everything being held against you, then you're not going to appreciate the things that are given to you or done for you. Because you're constantly worrying that if I accept this gift or if I'm thankful for this, if I want this thing that's being given to me, then am I going to feel obligated in some way or not?

John [00:47:00]: Well, a lot of people, that's how they operate and they don't want help from people because they don't want to feel like they owe somebody something.

Nicole [00:47:08]: Right. But that's. And when you're dealing with the external world, I. I generally agree, Right. I always say, never let anyone put their hooks in you. Right? So don't accept charity. Don't accept gifts from. From people because you don't want them to. You don't want to owe someone something, right? However, when you're in a relationship with someone, you have to cut those barriers down because it's not going to be healthy. It's not going to help you to be worrying about, you know, you just have to accept, you know, graciously, I think is the key. And again, I think it is more of a feminine issue that women, even compliments women a lot of times have a hard time accepting. But part of being feminine is accepting those compliments graciously, being thankful for them, being thankful for the things that. Because a man is, if you think about it, really. And again, I'm talking about the ideal. Well, I think it's in the heart of all men, right? So a lot of men don't even tap into their own heart and understand this. But a man in a relationship with a woman, especially married, right, The. The biggest thing that will bring him joy or happiness in his life is for her to be happy. That's like, if he can make her life better. If, if, you know, if I can have on my eulogy or whatever, he made Nicole the most happy, you know, made her life as best as it possibly could be, you know, whatever. Like, those praises, those would be the most. My highest accomplishment as a man. You know what I'm saying? Those are things that are most meaningful to me. And so that's why I think that sometimes it's misunderstood. If women understand this about a man's heart, then they see all these things that he's doing and giving them as those are real. That's what is really important to him. It's not so that he can use it later.

John [00:49:05]: Right.

Nicole [00:49:06]: You know what I mean?

John [00:49:06]: But I do think it is confusing because, like, even the example where you wake up early and you bring me coffee, right? Like, I get that you were trying to prove a point and I understand your perspective of it and that, you know, you didn't feel like I gave you the appreciation that you would like to feel. But also I was like, I wake up and I give you a kiss and hug every morning. And then you're like, oh, yeah, you did. You do do that. And so, like, I feel like just using those examples, sometimes they're not beneficial in the way that you think they are. And even at the end of our conversation, I told you to, like, tell me one way that I support you that you liked, and then tell me, but I would like support in other ways or I'm not feeling fully supported, though, Right. And I feel like that is very needed when a man is talking to how he wants to be supported by his woman. Because it doesn't look the same for everybody. Like, in some degrees, yes. Like, but it's also confusing because I do. Thank you. When you bring me coffee. And I feel like, okay, maybe that's enough, but it wasn't enough. You know what I mean? And so that's fine. And you're valid for feeling that. But I also need to know what, like, more would you want? And it doesn't have to be like, in that exact instance, but it needs to be clarified because it is confusing. And like I said, it's not the same for everybody. Like you said with the love languages thing, it's like, how do you feel best supported? And there are things that a woman can do that is universal. Like, right. Showing her appreciation by saying thank you every time. Or, you know, if that's not enough, then, you know, making him coffee. Sometimes there are things like, I'm not saying that there aren't ways to come up with things, but I feel like you do have to, especially if you're expressing that your needs aren't being met. You can't just be like, will you figure it out? And I get why you want to say that, because you want it to be genuine. But at the same time, if you're a team, you want to be working together, right? Like, just like you're working to provide for the family and you want her to join in on that by supporting you. It's a team effort.

Nicole [00:51:35]: Right?

John [00:51:36]: And so. And even if it's like a woman's needs aren't being met, she has to bring it to her husband in a way that's like, I appreciate you doing this for me, but I'm lacking this or something. You know what I mean? Like, it still has to be done in the right way because it is a confusing thing. Right? And even if. Even though it's about the person talking and our situation was complicated because I. You asked me what was wrong and I started saying things, and then none of that got resolved. And then this new thing came up. Right? And I've already talked about that, that's hard for me to. Especially hard for me to empathize when I still have these problems. And now they feel even more pushed under the rug. And so now I'm supposed to sit and listen to someone talk about something when my feelings got discarded. But needless to say, with that, like, you, like, each person is valid in what they feel. But at the same time, I do feel like you're responsible for how you express it and what is the best way. And I didn't do it the best way when I brought you my issues. And I acknowledge that. But after having the conversation, I know that how important that is and how important it is to be vulnerable and come from that place and that it's okay to appear needy and things like that. But at the same time, I do feel like. Like it is important to try to pay attention as much as you can to what you're saying and how you're approaching your partner. Because, yeah, those things do matter. Especially like I said to a woman, she doesn't want to feel like, you know, these things are being held against her. And, like, should I ask him to not bring me coffee anymore? Like, because is he gonna say like? And I'm not saying say that in the moment.

Nicole [00:53:34]: Yeah.

John [00:53:34]: But even after that, though, it does make a woman feel like, is he bothered by this thing or no?

Nicole [00:53:43]: Never. He's never bothered by it. That's the answer. That's what I'm trying to get at, is that the answer is no, he's never bothered by it. He's doing things for you because he wants to do them for you, and he just wants to be acknowledged for it. He doesn't even need more thank yous. He just wants you in the moment to acknowledge it. That's the thing is to say, oh, I love when you do that. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. It also is the counter to having feeling like someone. So, for example, even if we use that example where I said, if someone gives you some candy and then hands you a bill, you know, when. When they give you. When they hand you the bill, you could say, oh, wow, I, you know, I thank you for giving me that candy. I really like the candy. Right. It's like they don't have anything to say to that. Like, like, your acknowledgement of it. It's like if you're like, oh, let me give you back the candy. That's. No, it was a gift. Right. And if you acknowledge a gift, then you. You take away the obligation part of it. It's just, I think when gifts are not acknowledged, that's when someone feels like now they're owed something because it's like, I did this for you out of the kindness of my heart. If you, if you're treating it transactionally, then now I feel like it's transactional. Whereas, you know, because the answer is always right and it's hard to accept. But if a man is doing something for you, he wants to, he enjoys doing it. You know, we love to serve. We love to serve our wives to serve. Our, our good men do that. Well, let's only talk about, I mean, in every man's heart of hearts, though that is, Is the truth. Like, like, because this is how men are built, right? Masculine wants to support, wants to provide, wants to, you know, and so that's what, what it really comes down to. So the answer is, is never to be like, oh, you don't have to do that for me. The. Probably the worst thing that you could ever say to a man, one of the worst things is, oh, don't do that for me, or you don't have to do that for me, or I didn't ask you to do that for me. Those are like, those are like daggers in the heart because as a man, I get my sense of, of self, like in a relationship, sense of worth and for how much I'm providing for the people that depend on me. And when a person says, I don't need you to do that for me, or you shouldn't have done that, or I didn't ask you to do that, it's like, you don't matter. Like, all your efforts are worthless. You know, Like, I don't care about your efforts because that's so. So that's kind of the thing behind it is that it's. It's just important to realize that you don't have, like, every gift that, that a man ever gives you in a relationship, he wants to give it to you. And there's no.

John [00:56:22]: I mean, I understand. I feel like, though it is confusing when people use examples, though, and it does may get confusing. That's why I think that it does matter and that the better thing would probably be to just talk about what you're lacking and that you need more support or you need more desire rather than using examples to try to make somebody, like, understand, because it can be confusing. And I understand what you just said, that it feels hurtful when you did something nice for somebody and then they're like, well, don't do that, or, I didn't ask you to do it. I understand that. But I also see where if like, the tables were turned and I was like, well, I do all this for you. I do all this for you. You would understand where I'm coming from. But you'd also probably be like, does she want to do these things or are they just like, you know, like, it's just, I don't feel like it's a good way for anybody to prove their point because what the actual point is is that you're not feeling supported.

Nicole [00:57:29]: Well, the point, I think the point can be this is how much I love you.

John [00:57:35]: Yeah, but I think that you can express that in a way that isn't all of these tasks that you did.

Nicole [00:57:40]: I mean, it can be demonstrated by the things that you do. Like, and, and the things that I, I think that's still valid.

John [00:57:47]: Like why, I mean, I disagree. I will agree to disagree, but I think it's just, it puts somebody in a confusing position is what I'm saying.

Nicole [00:57:58]: Not, not if you are, have to point something out because it's, you know, it needs to be understood. I think that, you know, there are times where that's important. Right.

John [00:58:08]: Because, I mean, I just feel like I'm able to convey to you without. The only time I feel like I bring stuff up is if I'm in a defensive mode. But whenever I'm talking about something that's bothering me with you, I don't feel like I need to bring things up like that because I, I personally don't think it's beneficial. I think it's more beneficial to talk about the underlying need and what is lacking rather than talk about all the things that I've already done to try to prove something, if that makes sense.

Nicole [00:58:40]: Well, I mean, I, I, I think that is important to, to, to say what, what has, what has happened. Like what, like to, because a lot of things are not seen, are not not acknowledged. Right. And I think that it's perfectly valid to say, like, for example, a lot of women are in the opposite position where, hey, they, they work a job, they cook, they clean, they take care of the kids, they're doing all the stuff. The guy, he's working a job, but then he's watching TV or playing video games. Right? So it's perfectly valid for a woman in that circumstance to go to the guy and say, hey, look, I am working a job just like you, I am cooking, I do your laundry, I take care of the kids, I do all this stuff. Right. You know, this is how I'm showing up and showing that I care about you and I love you and in this relationship. And so like, I, I, I would appreciate some acknowledgement for those things.

John [00:59:44]: I hear what you're saying. I Literally feel like no man ever has an epiphany when a woman says that stuff, to be honest. And that's what I'm trying to say. It just makes a man and whoever is in that situation defensive. That's the point I'm trying to make. Because everything you just said, right? I know exactly how that would play out. If I was in a room with people talking like that, and the man would be like, I go to work every day and I take out the trash and I do this. It doesn turn into, oh, wow, she does. It should. I'm not saying that you're wrong that it should make a man be like, oh, she is doing all this stuff. I really appreciate that. But that isn't how it normally turns out. It normally becomes the time that now he's going to talk about all the things that he does. That's what I'm trying to say is that it's not wrong. I'm not saying it's wrong.

Nicole [01:00:33]: That's the roles. That's where the roles come in, right? Is because, see, a man does all of these things to support the family. He goes to work, maybe he wakes up early in the morning, he does all these things. A woman can't compare herself to those things. And the man shouldn't be trying to compare a woman to those things. It's what he puts in. It's what she puts in, right? He puts in the protection, the providing that. The. The protecting from the stress, handling the stresses of the world. She puts in the nurturing and the support.

John [01:01:10]: Which is why I think that the conversation would be better not to be handled that way. Because then it does feel like you're competing with each other. You know what I mean? And instead she should be like, you know, if she's doing all the stuff or whatever, talk about how if, you know, she felt like he handled some of the other stuff, that wouldn't be as much of a toll on her because then she could focus on supporting him and being there for him because she wouldn't have all this stuff that he doesn't appreciate or whatever. Like that he's not seeing, rather than her listing out all the things and being like, see, why I do all this stuff? Why don't you appreciate me? Or why aren't you, you know that. That's what I'm trying to say is that I understand where spelling it out you would make people realize what they're not seeing.

Nicole [01:02:03]: Right?

John [01:02:03]: But normally doing that way just makes people defensive. And instead, if you come at it like From a way, I'm gonna go back to, like, our thing because it's easier to give example. But where. If you were like, I'm not. I'm not feeling fully supported. I feel like there are some things that I do that you don't pay as much attention to. You don't have to say them, but you can say that. You know what I mean? Like, because the second you bring out the laundry list.

Nicole [01:02:28]: Yeah.

John [01:02:28]: That makes a person want to be defensive, and that person has to work really hard to not be defensive towards that. And, like, maybe they can do that. They're very emotionally evolved, if they can. But I think it's better to go about it in a way that I, like, just mentioned, where you're talking about the needs specifically, you can say, say something along the lines of, I feel like there are things that I've been doing that aren't being noticed, and so I'm not feeling supported or I'm not feeling desired in this way. And I want to bring it to your attention if you need certain examples, because maybe she'll say, well, what are you doing? And then you can, you know, say the things. But I feel like if you're just starting the conversation and you're like, I do this, this, and this for you, and what are you doing? All I ask for is support. Like, that just feels like an attack on the other person rather than working together as a team.

Nicole [01:03:30]: Yeah.

John [01:03:30]: Does that make sense?

Nicole [01:03:31]: Yeah, I see that perspective. That makes sense. Yeah.

John [01:03:34]: Like, I'm not saying that it's wrong to, like, have things that, you know, are being unappreciative, but I just don't think it's beneficial to the cause of fixing the problem to lay them all out like that, if that makes sense.

Nicole [01:03:49]: Yeah. I mean, I think it's only in the case where there's an imbalance or you feel like the things aren't appreciated, then I think they do have to be called out. But otherwise, I would agree, you know, because otherwise, how will a person know? How will they, you know, if a person doesn't understand, like I said, with the woman's perspective of a woman doing all this stuff and, you know, doing the job and doing the household, which, again, we're talking about the opposite of that, because that's not the role. Right. That we're. We're recommending. If that's not pointed out, that won't. Like, so many men are oblivious to it. That's why, you know, so many of the men that I've worked with have Gotten ended up on the bad end of a divorce because that never was pointed out to them. It should have been. Now, I'm not saying that they would have handled it correctly, but it should have been pretty healthy. They're like, why did this happen? And I'm like, well, let's see. Let's look at this, right? It's like you were. You were working a job, and that's all you were doing, and she was doing everything else. Like, you had friends and you hung out and you did all the kind of stuff that you would do in your normal life, and her life wasn't good because she was picking up all the slack for you, and that's why, you know, it happened. But, you know, had there been an intervention, had there been, you know, that communicated very clearly that, hey, this is not a fair deal, I think it has a chance for fixing things, but if that's not communicated, it doesn't have a chance.

John [01:05:18]: Yeah, it's just hard for me to picture the op like the part that you're talking about, because I don't feel like any man would acknowledge what a woman's doing. I feel like they would just try to compare. Yeah, well, I'm not saying any man. I did say any man. But I'm saying that literally a majority of the men that have been in that conversation do not. Do not respond with, oh, yeah, you are doing so much, honey, let me do the dishes tonight, or something like that. They should be right, because that's what a man's expecting from his wife when she, you know, it should be the same thing.

Nicole [01:05:55]: Right.

John [01:05:55]: But it's normally not met with that. But I understand what you're saying is that, you know, that's how everybody should be responding is caring about what your partner's saying. But that's also why I was trying to explain that it makes people more defensive to be like, I did this for you, and I do this every day.

Nicole [01:06:15]: It has to be worded the right way, I think. But it, you know, I think also in this situation, you know, in that situation I was talking about, if the guy's already playing video games and do, you know, and his wife's doing all the other stuff, he's probably already the kind of guy that's not going to be receptive, you know, in a healthy, functioning relationship, you know, and she's probably.

John [01:06:39]: Got resentment built up.

Nicole [01:06:41]: So the other thing, too, is I think that. I think the. The more. The. The important part of it, I think that makes a difference, too, between men and women. Is that a man, he takes pride in everything that he does and provides and does for his family. Right. And so a man does want to call that out and say, these are the things that I am doing. This is like a man wants to say, hey, I wake up early in the morning and get acknowledgement for those things. Whereas it's not as much. I'm not saying that women don't care about that, but it's not something that they take pride in how hard they work. Right. In general. Right. In. In a family situation, in, in other ways they take pride in that, but that's not. It doesn't define their value. For a man in a relationship, it defines his value. Like, it's like if that's not appreciated or acknowledged or known, then he doesn't really. Like what, why? Because that's why he's doing all that stuff is because he, he loves the people that he's providing for. Right. And so that's why he does the things that he does every day, you know, in a good. With a good man. Like I guess you could say. But. But. Yeah, but. All right, I think that's. Anything else on the.

John [01:07:58]: I don't think so. I mean, was there anything that you wanted to add to what we talked about?

Nicole [01:08:04]: I mean, I mean, just that the final thing, which is because it. We kind of went all over the place. But is that the key is that the synergy is when you have both of those things operating, when the man is able to be as unburdened by the things that would stop him from being as effective as possible at his job. And what's that look like? It depends. It depends, right. Because you know, for. I use the example when we were talking about, you know, if you're a lumberjack or whatever and you're not making very much money and you know, you, you would be in a double income household, then maybe it is helpful. Maybe the thing that supports him to be able to have the energy to go out there and do that is for his wife to wake up early in the morning and make him breakfast and pack his lunch for him, you know, and help get his clothes ready for him so that he's ready to go and he can go and jump into work and get that stuff done. Right. So for him that's the support and then obviously the appreciation of it. But for example, for a guy like me, it's not really if you make my breakfast and my lunch, those aren't the things that I'm dealing in the mental world of stresses and all these things, for me, the support is more. The admiration, which I think is universal, but the appreciation, the, you know, handling my, my needs, like to be relaxed and, and to, to feel, you know, appreciated and loved and sexual and all the, all those things that, that make it so that I can function at my full capacity.

John [01:09:51]: So should the. I have a question. So should the woman be verbally appreciated for the support and things that she's doing?

Nicole [01:10:01]: Yeah, it should be acknowledged as well, right? Because if someone's doing something for you that makes you feel acknowledged, like the acknowledgment should be acknowledged, right? And be like, thank you for acknowledging that you acknowledge me.

John [01:10:14]: We talked about this.

Nicole [01:10:15]: Yeah.

John [01:10:16]: I think, though, that men would benefit from doing more of that as well too, because like I said, it helps a woman understand how best to support you. And I said this in our own conversation. I'm like, if I do something that you like.

Nicole [01:10:32]: Yeah.

John [01:10:32]: And you respond just like yesterday I left you like a note and you were like, I really like that. So I'm like, okay, that's. Not that I didn't already know that, but, you know, I do think you need to say it's encouragement, right? Like, men need to also say what they like. Or, you know, if your wife does something, like I mentioned earlier, like brings you a cupcake, you could be like, hey, I appreciate that, but I don't. I think you thought that that would, you know, be something that I enjoyed a lot, but I would prefer maybe like to spend time with you rather than get a cupcake when you come home or something, you know, like making. Helping her also support you because it is hard trying to feel like you have to read somebody's mind, you know, and like you said, they're universal ones that are go to's, but also if you're doing those, like, it's helpful to figure out what other ways to support them that they like. Because I'm sure there are not women out here who aren't saying thank you and who aren't, you know, acting that way. But it can still not be enough. Yeah, like, I know that I've showed you appreciation, but it's obviously not enough. So that's why I wanted to know what makes you feel best supported and appreciated. You know what I mean? And so that's very important that you have open communication. And I'm not saying tell them, make them a list of everything that makes you feel supported or appreciated, but give them some examples or give them positive reinforcement because that will help them continue to Support you and be there for you in the way that you need, and vice versa.

Nicole [01:12:19]: And I think. I mean, like, to help with that. Right. Like, obviously, examples and the encouragement is useful, but I think that if you're thinking about it in terms of the team of, like I said, of. It's like, you know, if you're like, as a woman, if you're thinking, all right, this man is my ticket to, you know, to a good future, right. To financial success. Like, I don't have control over that dial. Because, you know, because a lot of women are worried. They're like, my man's not ambitious enough. He doesn't make enough money. He doesn't. Right. I know this is not a thing that you're worried about, but a lot of women are. Right? A lot of women. That's their thing. It's like, he's. He's not like, how can I get him to be like other men who actually go out and go and get things done? And.

John [01:13:07]: But I don't think a woman has control over that. Because I was with a man who was like that. And you're right. Nothing I don't like, and I did support him, and it did not help. And, yeah, like, that is tricky because sometimes you're right that a woman can help him thrive with the right support. I know you're going there, and I do believe that. But also sometimes, no. Yeah, you can't. And it's a lot to put on a woman's shoulders to be like, if you just did this, if you just supported him, he would thrive. Because there are plenty of women who. And I was one of those women who financially also supported that man.

Nicole [01:13:46]: See, that's not.

John [01:13:47]: When he didn't have the ability.

Nicole [01:13:49]: Yeah.

John [01:13:50]: And he still didn't live up to anything.

Nicole [01:13:52]: That's not supporting that. Not. Not in the way I'm talking about. Not in the. In the way that a man needs. But again, you can't. You can't, you know, make a stubborn mule. You know, you can't. You can bring a horse of water, but you can't make him drink. But what you can do is, like, when. When you're thinking about, how can I support a man, right. As a woman, you can think about, okay, here's. Here's my man. Here's what he does. Here's his work. Like, how can I make it him feel like he can accomplish more or do more? You know, you can think about what are the things that would light him up that he would. Like, what. What can I wear what can I. What kind of things are going to make him feel more like a man so that he can go out and conquer the world? And so those are the ways that you can, because you got to think about it, too. It's like, again, in the situation where we're talking about the ideal roles, if a man's working 8 hours, 10 hours, 12 hours, how many hours a day, and he's doing all of these things and tackling all this stuff, then what are you doing as a woman? A lot of women's answer is, well, I'm doing laundry and cleaning the house and cooking and taking care of the kids. And that's fine if that is. Is. Is the case. But that's not really the thing that, like, those are also necessary things, which he can do some of those things. That's not, you know. But the question is, what are you doing with your time? Are you thinking about how you can make this man go further in his career, make this man be more successful so that you can be successful together? And that's like, when you start thinking about those things, then you have the answer of. Of what you can do to support him.

John [01:15:25]: I mean, I agree, but I feel like it is kind of confusing for women, and that's what I've been trying to. Well, we're trying woman side, but I think that even what you just said is confusing because, like, even the thing we just said, like, I supported him financially because I thought that was supporting him. And you're like, no, that's wrong. And so, like. And then also, like, I've tried on things before that, like, you don't necessarily, like, and I think look cute on me. And so it is something that a woman is, like, overthinking. Like, you make it sound so easy. You're like, put something on that will make him feel like a man. And you're like, oh, I look cute. And then you go in and you're like, the guy might be like, yeah, that looks nice. And then you're like, you know, so I'm not saying. I get what you're saying, and I'm not saying you have to again, give a list.

Nicole [01:16:17]: Okay.

John [01:16:18]: But that's why I'm trying to say if you give a little bit, you will help her. Right?

Nicole [01:16:23]: Just like, yeah, I got it. Okay. If you financially support a man, okay. It's like, it's like enabling. It's the opposite of support. It's so that you want to do the opposite of that.

John [01:16:36]: Oh, trust me, I know that. That was not a Good idea. But I was young and not very.

Nicole [01:16:41]: I'm just saying, like, make him do stuff for you. That's also how you make a man feel desired. Ask him to do stuff for you. To you. You see what I'm saying? Don't do stuff to him. Make him do stuff to you.

John [01:16:56]: See, that's where women get a consensus, too, right? But that's why they need a little bit of help.

Nicole [01:17:00]: Money. Ask him for money. You want to support a man, ask him for money. I know that sounds really weird that I'm saying this right now, but look, if. If a guy. Young man. Is dating a girl and she's like, I really, really want this house, or I really want this house that has a fireplace in the bathtub, right? You're like, man, I got to get my woman in this house. I gotta bust some out. Maybe I'm gonna work some overtime this weekend. Like, I gotta get her that thing that she want, you know? Again, I'm not saying to misuse this or abuse this in order to be a gold digger, to like, to just extract resources from a man. That's all I'm saying. But I'm saying that the way you support a man is probably. I'm glad you said this, and I know we're running a lot over, but it's worth it because we. After this whole episode, we finally got to the actual meat of it, which is that the way that you support men is the opposite of what you think it is. To. Is to be needy, is to ask him for stuff. It's to make him step up because you want something from him. It's to. It's to not only accept his gifts, but ask for what?

John [01:18:08]: If you want him to propose, I'm just kidding.

Nicole [01:18:10]: Well, let's not.

John [01:18:11]: I'm not gonna spiral.

Nicole [01:18:12]: But like, yeah, that one has to be his own thing. That one doesn't count. That's not it. But you can talk about that. But instead of asking him to propose, right, you can say, oh, I really would love to have a nice house someday and some kids and for us to be able to go on vacation sometimes.

John [01:18:34]: They already have a house in Missouri.

Nicole [01:18:39]: To stay at the Woodland Lodge.

John [01:18:41]: You're like, I know an airbnb be.

Nicole [01:18:43]: But you know what I'm saying is like that. But. But I don't want to get from the point. But the main point is.

John [01:18:48]: That was a joke.

Nicole [01:18:50]: But. But the main point is this, because it is. I just realized a light bulb moment. Women are confused about it is that it's the opposite of what you think. Like, the way that you support a man is by having him work more.

John [01:19:02]: But that's why I helped her to get some examples, because then she can get in the mindset of it being the opposite. You know what I mean? Like, because otherwise she, even though you just said it's the opposite, she's still trying to figure it out. And so that's why I think it's best for anybody to be like, hey, I really liked it when you came downstairs and kissed me when I walked through the door.

Nicole [01:19:24]: Yeah, that, of course, I mean, you.

John [01:19:26]: Know, that was really nice, but I feel like I haven't been supported in some other areas lately. And so that. Then she's like, okay, so he likes it when I give him physical affection, or he likes it when I kiss him. Or, you know, now maybe I'll put my arm on his. Or touch his arm or something, you know.

Nicole [01:19:43]: Yeah, but it's also romantic if you come up with it on your own, right?

John [01:19:46]: I'm not saying don't come up with any on your own, but I'm saying I've told women it's opposite, right? And they're all sitting here, who's actually watching? Like, what the fuck does that.

Nicole [01:19:55]: We need, like a whole nother episode. But what I was going to say about. Oh, when, When I started bringing you coffee in the morning since we moved here, you know, when it was. It was about a week after you had casually mentioned and said, oh, I remember when you used to. When we lived at the old place and we used to both get up to go for work and you'd make me coffee. Oh, and I heard that. And then ever since then, I've been doing it every single day, right? Because I want to please you, because I want you to be happy, because I want to provide for you. I want to do things for you. You see, and so that's why, besides.

John [01:20:33]: The one time you put lemonade in my.

Nicole [01:20:35]: Well, yes, by accident.

John [01:20:37]: That's funny.

Nicole [01:20:37]: But do you see what I'm saying? That's why it is the opposite. Like support. Supporting a man is making him feel useful and acknowledging his usefulness and making, you know, that. That part of it. And of course the sexual part of it too. But, you know, but, but again, like I said, the sexual part of it too is not, you know, it's not. I mean, yeah, it's great. I mean, guys like to have things done to them. I'm not, you know, we're not going to keep. Make this graphic, but, But It's. It's more you asking him to do stuff to you. Right. Or to, you know, like, you showing. You show a desire by wanting him, not wanting to show him affection by wanting affection from him. Even the same thing with the neediness. Right. If you show affection to a man by hugging him, it's way more effective. If you say, can you hug me? That shows more.

John [01:21:29]: Now you're just literally blown.

Nicole [01:21:31]: That shows more affection. That shows more affection by saying, can you hug me? Can you hold me?

John [01:21:38]: So just ask for everything and then be appreciative. Okay, Well, I don't know if any other women watching this are like, they made it this mind blown, but that's a woman. And you didn't know this. Put the mind blown emoji in the comments, because my mind is.

Nicole [01:21:58]: But so you gave me the light bulb because I realize it is actually the opposite of what.

John [01:22:03]: But that's also why they need a little bit of help. Because even what you just said, I would never have thought. Even though you just said do the opposite, I would have never thought it would mean more to you for me to be like, can you hug me? Than just hugging you.

Nicole [01:22:16]: Oh, yeah. I think if you survey nine out of 10 men. We'll have to. We'll have to.

John [01:22:20]: You're looking at.

Nicole [01:22:21]: And then we'll have to ask Rodrigo after that. Well, let's. I mean, what do you think, Rodrigo? Do you agree? Yeah. Being asked to. Right? Like 100. Or are you just saying it? Probably. I don't know. 80. 80. Okay.

John [01:22:37]: I mean, that's still a majority.

Nicole [01:22:38]: Yeah. I mean, it feels good to get a hug, but it feels better to ask someone to hug you as a man, like, for different women to ask you to. To hug her.

John [01:22:47]: Okay, well, yeah.

Nicole [01:22:48]: See, men like to give. Men are givers. It's so weird because so many men are opposed to it today, and they think they don't want to because you know why men don't want to be givers today? I'll tell you why. Why men want to be 50, 50 men is because they feel like women don't appreciate it, that they don't ask that they're not asked that. That men give without being asked. And then women are like, I don't want that or, I don't need that.

John [01:23:11]: I can do it. Stop calling women needy. That's first thing you need to stop doing. Yeah, but like, those men.

Nicole [01:23:16]: But men are givers. That. That is really what. What makes a man feel valuable. He wants to give. So when you ask My mind is blown when you say, I want something from you, I need something from you. Men need to feel useful. It makes them feel useful. So there you go.

John [01:23:32]: Well, you heard it here, folks.

Nicole [01:23:35]: All right. I guess we're. Yeah. All right. Leave us a review on. On itunes. You know, we haven't gotten any in a while. It's still the last one. Banana finger. So go on. You gotta be better than banana fingers. I mean, banana figures is good. We appreciate you, but let's step it up here. All right, we'll see you next week.

John [01:23:53]: Take care.