Nicole: It's a lot to put on a woman's shoulders to be like, "If you just did this, if you just supported him, he would thrive," because there are plenty of women who, and I was one of those women, who financially also supported that man when he didn't have the ability, and he still didn't live up to anything. That's not supporting, not in the way I'm talking about, not in the way that a man needs.

John: You want to do the opposite of that.

Nicole: Oh, trust me, I know that that was not a good idea, but I was young, and I'm just beyond through our flaws, complete each better than perfect. We stay through every fault we find. Welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other grow equals one better than perfect relationship.

John: He got me there for a second. I was like, "Is it? He's got it."

Nicole: Yeah, he's got it. So, we're back in the studio. It feels like it's been... We were back last time.

John: No, we weren't last week.

Nicole: Well, yeah, but we didn't record last week, but that's why it feels like a long time.

John: Yeah, we went on the cruise, and my parents were in town too.

Nicole: Which John wanted them to come on the podcast, but my mom said her podcasting days are over.

John: I think we could have convinced them, maybe next time.

Nicole: Maybe next time. But then also, what will we talk about?

John: I don't know. I mean, I'm sure there's... Well, I think we were going to do like how dating and stuff has changed since they were dating.

Nicole: But, so, leave comments saying that you want my parents to come on the podcast, and I'll show them.

John: Yeah, then they can't say no, right? It's kind of like when you were a kid, and you were like, "Go ask my parents if you can stay over." Like your friend knows they can't say no if you guys want them to come on, right? Show the comments and be like, "Look, see, people want you to."

Nicole: Exactly, you got to do it. So that might work. But yeah, so what is the topic for today?

John: Yeah, so I thought we'd do a topic on... I don't know how to exactly... I mean, it's the roles in a relationship or in a marriage, right? Between the man and the woman, like what is ideal for the roles, right?

Nicole: Should we talk about the ending thing in the beginning since it inspired...

John: Yeah, I guess so. I guess we'll talk about our face, what we faced this week.

Nicole: Yeah, so we had a little bit of a discussion this week. And what it really came down to is kind of why we're doing this episode, which is just talking about the roles, like what is a woman supposed to be doing in their relationship, what is the man's role, because I think there is a lot of confusion. So we got into that a little bit, but worked it out.

John: I'm trying to think like what... how to describe... Like, I don't even remember what happened or the rules or...

Nicole: Yeah, what happened. I'm trying. I don't even remember what the beginning... Well, I was fearful of like conflict arising because of things that happened in the past, and I knew that they weren't happening actively, but I was still afraid that they would happen. And then I brought it up to you in the wrong way, and then we kind of spiraled from there on the crazy cycle. And then you felt like I wasn't really listening to you, empathizing with your side of the whole situation.

John: And then I realized that I wasn't doing it in the right way, and that I didn't really... Like, I can understand the concept of doing it, but I never really knew how to do it.

Nicole: Yeah, never really saw it happening, never really experienced it even myself to the degree that you were explaining until I was with you. So, it was just a lot of realizing that I was also shutting myself off to try to protect myself, which then also made you feel like I was distant from you.

John: Exactly, yeah. So, it was just a lot of things. Which is how I've always operated, and it's a defense mechanism, and all those things. So, it was a long, not as long as... No, not as long, but it was a long conversation, but it was beneficial.

Nicole: Yeah, because I think we cut through a lot of... It's crazy how, you know, just... It's funny because I think two nights ago, I was like, "Oh, we get along so well. We have worked out so... Like, I think we've reached perfection now."

John: So, you're the one jinxing us.

Nicole: I jinxed it in your head, like two nights ago.

John: No, I said it two nights ago or something. But the thing is, it is funny how there's... You're still growing and still learning and working through issues. But it was really helpful to me because there were some things that I was frustrated by that I feel like got resolved that weren't... It wasn't like it was... You know, something that was just... I don't know how to describe it. Like, our relationship is really good almost all the time, right? So, there's always little things that we have to fix and work on and figure out, and they feel really big because there's not as big of problems, if that makes sense. Like, we've talked about this with each other before, but I don't know if we've talked about it on here, that because the vast majority of the time, things are so good, when even something little happens, it feels bigger than it is.

Nicole: Exactly. And that's not to say we haven't dealt with actual big things, because we have. But it's just that when you have such a close connection and deep intimacy, the little things, you want to bring up and resolve and not let them grow into bigger things.

John: Yeah, so yeah. And it's funny because I was talking to one of my coaching clients actually on the relationship coaching, and he was saying, "I don't know why I'm getting so hurt by every little thing." And I was like, "It's because you're so close now." Because I was working with him and helped him restore the relationship and get it to a point where they're really, really close, more intimate than they had ever been. So now, it's true, now it's like any little disturbance, you feel it more.

Nicole: You do. So, which, you know, which I don't even think that's a bad thing because then I think it's easier for you not to sweep things under the rug because even little things bother you enough to talk about it.

John: Yeah, so it is a good thing, even though it might feel like, he said, like, "Oh, this sucks, caring so much about every little thing." But at the same time, that's why the good parts are so good, and they feel so good, and you're so happy in those moments, is because everything is intensified because you have that deep connection.

Nicole: Yeah, because what happens if you don't, then I think a lot of people are used to operating in a mode in the relationship where they're just kind of ignoring.

John: Things, it's just not worth the hassle. It's like, this is just, you know, and that you're not that close. Like, if you're close enough, then you can't because it's affecting that closeness, right? So, if you get into a mode where you're not very close, where you've lost some of that intimacy, you're just used to operating in that mode. And then the things that they do don't affect you as much because it only really affects you when you are that close because it breaks the closeness, and you feel it.

Nicole: Well, and I'm sure people feel hopeless too, in a different situation. They're like, "I've brought this up how many times and nothing keeps happening, like changing." So, I get that people kind of start to pick their own battles, but like you said, that's not necessarily the way that it should be. And I understand if one person's trying and the other person's not, or you know, whatever the situation might be, but like you said, the best way is to talk about all the things because then you will work through them rather than keeping them inside all bottled up. And then you're going to explode, and then that's going to cause more problems.

John: Exactly, yeah. So, was our end segment, but it kind of led to, and part of the conversation was about the roles, and that's where I came up with this topic. As you know, what is a man supposed to do in their relationship? What is a woman supposed to do? And we had a good discussion about it, and we can echo some of that here and then hit the man side too because we were hitting mostly on the woman's side. But you know, when we first got together, when we first really became a couple, the thing I said to you was, "I only need two things from you, which is one, to support me as a man, and to show me the sexual desire and interest that motivates me, that gives me confidence." However you want to describe it, that's how I described it at that point. But it's interesting how, I don't know, I think a lot of people don't understand that it gets lost. It's not well understood, like why is that the case, right?

Nicole: Okay, well, I mean, I think maybe we can start by talking about what the role is for a man, what the role is for a woman, ideally. And I think for a man, the role, and this is something that we talk about a lot on the podcast, is he needs to be the sole financial provider for the house, right? He's the one who goes out and interfaces with the world, he faces the world, he makes the money, he takes care of the household, not just his wife but the family, children financially, creates the physical safety for everyone, the protector, the emotional safety for especially the woman to make sure that she feels emotionally safe and like she can be delicate and vulnerable. And he provides the leadership, the instruction, how everything is going to go, the direction, the decisions that need to be made, like setting the course. And really, I would say his role is to shield his wife, his woman, from the outside world so that she doesn't get all the stress from the outside world. She doesn't have to deal with the financial situations and the complexities of the outside world. He's providing a shield from that to make her life as stress-free as possible. And that's what he's supposed to do. Does that leave anything out, or is that right?

John: I don't think so, right. And then on the woman's side, it's more of the support of that, right? So, if the man is the head of the household, if he's the outward-facing conqueror who's making the money, then the woman's role in that relationship is to fuel him up. I think I was talking about it like a rocket in one of the episodes, where she's the rocket fuel. A man on his own, he can, and that's why a lot of men are like, "Well, why do I need a woman? Why do I need to get married?" He's like, "I can make money, I can pay for maid service, and clothes, and I can do all these things. I don't need a woman. If I want to have sex, I can pay for that, or I can, you know, I don't have to marry or commit to a woman." But the answer is because, yeah, a man can do those things on his own, but a woman behind him gives him the fuel, support to be able to do that mission, whether that be mostly in the emotional support of making him feel admired, making him feel strong, making him relax, like replenishing his energy so he can go out and face the world and fight the battles that need to be fought. And so, she's creating that for him in order to give him more energy to be able to do that, and it becomes a multiplier. So, the woman's role is more of the support of that man that is providing the income and the protection, and then of course, the children and the household, and taking care of that. But the main job, when we look at their relationship, or the main role within the relationship, is for her to support him so that he can go out and do the things. Because if he has a good woman behind him supporting him, then he's got that focus, that energy, the confidence to go and conquer the world.

Nicole: And I think that the thing that is confusing about it is like, why, right? Because, you know, and that's where that multiplicative effect is, right? Because a man on his own, he can make money, he can take care of his household or whatever, he can take care of himself. A woman on her own, she can do that today. A woman can make money, a woman can get a job, she can be extremely successful, she can run and manage her household. But if you take two and you combine them and put them in the same household, you.

John: You do get a double effect, right? It's twice. He's making money, she's making money. She's taking care of some things in the house, he's taking care of some things, which is fine. But you're not getting any synergistic benefit from that. Whereas if you have a man taking the role of being the sole financial provider and responsible, and the woman not doing that role but instead doing the role of support, and all her energy or majority of her energy is put into supporting him, it's a multiplicative effect. It's synergistic. Where now he can do three, four, five, ten times as much or be ten times as effective as he could on his own or she could on her own. And that's why, and that's also why, you know, when you look at wealth, right, people who are in the millionaire, multi-millionaire status, almost all of them are married. Like a big majority of people that are financially successful are married, and a lot of them are sole income households because that system works better than just combining things together.

Nicole: Makes sense. What are your... I talked a lot. I mean, I figured you were going to be talking a lot though because you've talked about it a lot. Yeah, even when we had a conversation. I mean, I feel like it all makes sense. I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. I feel like I do kind of have to go back to the point of women being afraid of men holding things over their head. Yeah, and I feel like especially when they're upset, maybe, and they are doing all this stuff, they do tend to throw that at a woman. And that pushes her more towards doing things on her own, getting her own stuff because she's afraid of things being held against her. And I think, though, like in our situation, you don't do that, and so it is easier to support you and be there for you. And even I wasn't doing it to the level that you needed when I felt like I was supporting you. And I have done a lot to do that, but you know, it's not about what I think I'm doing, it's about what you need and fulfilling those needs so that you can feel better and be able to do the things that you need to do.

John: Yeah, and I agree. I mean, I do think that it can be something that is... Well, I think the thing about holding it against or holding it over someone's head, it comes from a thinking of not truly thinking of it as a team, as one unit. Like we did that episode on Oneness, and either person can be guilty of this, right? So, but as a man, if you understand that look, it's not about her, it's not about, you know, I did this so you need to do this, right? It's about look, I'm the part of this team that's going out and facing the world. She's the part that's giving me the fuel to be able to do that. If this part of the team's not functioning well, I don't shit on this part of the team. I help this part of the team because that part of the team helps me, you know what I mean? And so, if you're holding something over someone's head and being like, well, I did this so you need to do this, then it's not that because that's not going to bring that person to get you what you need in order for the team to be because you're both going to succeed or fail together, right?

Nicole: Right. And I think, though, in a conversation, especially when people are frustrated, though, that doesn't... That isn't how it goes, you know what I mean? A lot of the time, like said, it could be a man or a woman with something being like, I do this so you need to do this or something like that. And that, I guess too, I'm speaking for women, one because I'm a woman and two because of just the history of relationships where women were in situations where they did have to just marry somebody. Yeah, and they had to take whatever treatment they got because they just didn't have any other option, really. And I'm not saying that that's how it is now, but I'm saying that I think those times and hearing those stories kind of like the stories that men hear make women more afraid of being put in those situations. And I can understand it too. Um, because the next episode we're going to be doing, we're going to talk more about this. Yeah, but it is more dangerous for a woman to be in a situation with a man that might hold things against her or, you know, in an extreme case, I'm not saying that this is the norm, like be dangerous or, you know, or turn into an abusive husband or something like that. So, and normally someone who holds things against you like that, there is some sort of abuse sort of thing. Like not all the time, but yeah, like even acting that way is emotionally manipulative. And so I think that's where two women are more hesitant with that kind of stuff.

John: Yeah, I know this isn't really like exactly what we're talking about. Well, give me the example of holding it so that we can put it into like how does a man do this, that using abusing this.

Nicole: He'll... I think I did it when we were on vacation too, but you know, a man's like, oh, let's go on this nice vacation, and you know, I planned all this, and then when you guys get in an argument, he's like, after everything I did for you, I just plan this whole vacation, and you're going to yell at, you're going to be upset at me over this? Like, I did this, so you should be able to do this. Like, it's taking something that he's done and he gifted you, and now used it and as manipulation for what, yes, and like now you have to do this, right?

John: Exactly.

Nicole: Okay, so yeah, like that, I feel like, is what women get, yeah, afraid of. And, and like you said, if it's come at though the way that you described it, and the way that we, you know, kind of went about the things is that we're helping each other, and that's how it should be. And I feel like if, and like I said, I guess this is what started the whole tangent, but what women are afraid of is when men get upset, that they're going to go straight to, I did this for you, you need to do this for me, rather than hey, like I'm not feeling supported, but we're a team, so like I want you to know that this isn't happening, and I have needs that aren't being met, right? Let's talk about it. If there's any way that I can help you figure this out as well too, let's figure it out together, right? But it's like emotions are typically so high by the time resentment has built or things like that, and that's we were talking about, just talk about it right away, that it typically goes the wrong way, even if you do want to view it as a team, right? Like sometimes you're just so frustrated and so upset that you do say things that you don't mean to say in that manner.

John: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

John: I want to be able to make the most money for our house and provide for us, to function at my best so we can have a better life. So that you can enjoy the things you like, the kids can be taken care of, and all of these things can be handled. However, my tank is low, and in order to do that, I need the support to give me the ability to do that to the ability that I want to and that you deserve, you know?

Nicole: Right, and that's a better way than saying, holding it against because, like you said, if it becomes transactional, where there's actually a cost to us, like giving someone a free sample and then they don't want you to do those things, you're creating other problems. You're using the things you do out of the kindness of your own heart to back up your point, and then it feels like you're just doing it to use against me later. Women can do the same thing to men. I'm not saying this is a man-only thing. But it really also drives a wedge between the people trying to have the conversation because then it does feel tit-for-tat, and everybody's getting defensive.

John: Right, and I don't think women have an issue supporting a man. It makes it feel like there's a team. Women have an issue supporting men who are like, "I do this all day, what are you doing?" I understand that at the core, that is the problem. But a lot of men just blurt out what they feel, and it comes out wrong.

Nicole: Exactly, and she's taking it literally, and then now she feels like you're holding things against her. So now she doesn't want you to take her on vacation or do the things that you're throwing back in her face. That's why I understand it's hard to do in the moment, but you do have to try to work together on something as a team. Even if the man is voicing his frustrations in the wrong way, a woman can try to turn it around. Like, "I hear what you're saying, how can I help you do this?" And I understand that men aren't going to want to be like, "Do this, this, and this," because then you're like, "Are you just doing this because I told you to do it?" Women have the same sort of thought process too when they tell men to do things for them.

John: Yeah, but at the same time, I do feel like it is important for the person who is talking about their needs not being met to at least give some examples. As a woman, I'm trying my hardest to understand your needs and what you need and what that looks like. But at the end of the day, I'm a woman, and my woman brain kicks in, and I'm like, "Oh, he would want me to bring him a cupcake, and that would make him feel so loved and supported," and you might be like, "That was nice, but I'd rather you just give me a hug and sit with me on the couch." So, it's like, someone can still be really trying to support the person but still be doing it wrong, but it's not malicious.

John: Exactly, it's kind of like the love languages we were talking about last week. Someone else's love language might be different. You have to know what makes you feel supported the most.

Nicole: Right, and I think part of that too comes from the confusion with the roles itself. If a guy's like, "Well, I work all day," a woman might say, "Well, is he saying I need to be working too?" For some guys, that is what they mean, which is not smart because that's not what you need as a man. A lot of young guys think, "Oh, well if we had two people making money," but if you had a woman supporting you so that you could make 10 times as much money, that's better.

John: I think that's where the confusion comes in. That role for a woman is fairly simple; it doesn't have to be all that other stuff. It's not on an equal level. We talked about, in another podcast episode maybe two weeks ago, how in a man's world, it's all about being productive and making money, and a lot of men judge women by that, and that's not the standard to judge a woman by.

Nicole: I think women are confused, and they do think that because men have made them think that. When a guy says that, it goes straight to, "Okay, I should get a job then," because it also sounds like he's complaining. A lot of men do complain about women not having a job or making money, or they call them dependents. Women are seeing all this stuff, so it's not like it's coming out of nowhere. And again, she shouldn't base her actual relationship on the things she's hearing on the internet, but most women have faced those sort of comments. Then they have also realized, "Well, if I do bring 50/50 to this relationship, I have 50% of the say, and he doesn't have 100%." If he's talking to me like this, then...

Nicole: I don't want him to have a 100, you know what I mean, but it is men who are perpetuating women acting this way. They might come for me in the comments with their pitchforks, but it is the truth. It goes back to a lot of other episodes that we've done, that they need to value femininity. They need to value what makes a woman a woman because even in the conversation we had the other night, and I think this is so important to bring up, you told me that it's okay to be needy.

John: Exactly, yeah. I feel like every woman hears the exact opposite, and you even asked me, and I said a woman shouldn't be needy until she's like married in a committed relationship because the way you explained it, you're like, it makes me feel closer to you. But in the beginning, it actually repels men away, so it is a weird balance. And so when you asked me that, I'm like, it's still hard for women to go from "don't be needy," and especially men are also telling women "don't be needy," right? And then, but then you're like, "be needy," and I'm like, I got the answer for you.

Nicole: Alright, so if I, as a man, well, and there's two pieces to it because we did talk about the needy but the pretending like you're not needy, right? So that's repulsive. Maybe we'll start with that one. So the first one is, and we talked about this, is that when you're needy but then you're acting like you're not, or that you don't need, you know, it's a weird thing, but people do it, right?

John: Well, you can tell the difference between people who are really needy and are trying to act cool about it, not needy. That's repulsive because it's like, "I want you to help me out and to be with me, but I don't want to drop the pride to admit that I want that." And that's repulsive. But I think the real answer comes down to this: if I, as a man, have stepped up and said, "I take accountability for you," like you're my wife or you're my girlfriend or whatever it is, but I am going to protect and provide for you like you're under my wing, then being needy is great because that's what you want as a man if you are in that role. If a person is under your protection, for them to come to you and be like, "I need your protection, please help me. I appreciate you. I'm scared. I need you to help me out," that makes you feel good. The key thing to men's psychology is men need to feel useful.

Nicole: Okay, because going back to what we talked about too, so if you're needy and you ask a man to help with things and then he holds them against you, that's also why women don't want to be needy, and that's also what they're afraid of. I'm just trying to give the full picture here because it's not black and white in a woman's mind; it's actually like every color that you could ever imagine because you feel like, especially as a woman, you have to make sure you're not making a choice that might be dangerous, you know what I mean?

John: How so?

Nicole: Like that you pick the right man. Yeah, of course. So it's like, we do sometimes get mixed signals, and I know men get mixed signals from women too. I'm not saying that's not the case, but there have been times where people will be needy, right? And then the things they asked for are thrown back in their face. So it's like, how do you navigate that as a woman? How do you be needy and vulnerable? And I know you're probably just going to tell me to just do it, but as a woman, it does hurt and makes you want to go back to how you were and be more masculine when you are vulnerable and someone takes the things you asked them for when they told you to ask for things and then uses them against you. Does that make sense? Because I think when we had the whole episode about vulnerability, there's a difference in vulnerability to own up to something, but it's also different to have your vulnerability weaponized, and that's what that is. And so, that instance, I feel like, would make women want to be less vulnerable.

John: Yeah, but like we mentioned, there is invulnerability to being vulnerable. But the thing is, any person, in general, if someone was like, "Be needy, tell me what you need, and I'll do it for you," and then everything was held against them, they would not do that anymore. And that's essentially what men have done to women, right? Like the men that haven't healed themselves.

Nicole: Well, okay, I think that there's an over caution or worry about this that's so, and I think that that comes from, depending on what we're saying, is being needy, quite need, right? So just asking for things.

John: Right, so what kind of things?

Nicole: Like, "Help me open this jar."

John: Well, that's probably not going, but it could be the repulsive kind of needy if you're asking for that, but you're not giving the credit of "you're a big strong man, and I can't do this myself, and I need your help."

Nicole: Right, okay, that is not going to be held against you. It's not going to be looked at. Some guys still could, they get pissed, and they'll be like, "You can't even open a jar?"

John: I mean, that's, it's, don't act like I wouldn't say something like that. I know, but in general, it's not like it's an actual vulnerability and actual right. But if it's like, "Can you open this jar for me, and I just don't feel like it?" Then it's like, no, you have to acknowledge, as a woman, you have to acknowledge your man and be like, "You're bigger than me, you're stronger than me, you can work harder than me. You do this stuff." A man has to feel like a woman actually is needy to him, is vulnerable to him because she needs him, not because she's just needy. And that's the difference. And when you come in that way, then it's instinctual. I've been coaching guys for a long time, not just in relationship coaching, but relationship stuff comes up all the time.

John: Like, if a woman just understood that instead of getting mad or dealing with a situation in a certain way, if she just broke down and cried or was like, "I don't want to lose you, I love you so much," if she took that approach of seeming needy, clingy, or weak, as some people would say, a man instantly melts. He feels like he has to take care of her, comfort her, and protect her, forgetting what he was upset about. Women have that secret power, and they don't realize they have that power.

Nicole: I think a lot of women do realize it, but I think most women who use it are manipulative. I'm not saying that what you're saying is the wrong thing to do; it's the right thing. But I think that a good majority of women who use that, because I can think of stories that I've heard, do exactly what you say after they've blown up, yelled, and then gone to that because they use it to try to make up for all the horrible things they did.

John: And I agree, but that's why that has to be the approach you can't use for bad. Any of these things could be used manipulatively. You should use them, which means you go there first. That's the being feminine part that a lot of women are afraid to show. But again, that is part of the role of support. When you come to me, struggling with something or needing comfort or support, I'm going to respond. It makes me feel more useful, better, more confident as a man. It empowers me because I know that you're trusting and coming to me.

Nicole: And I still think that a woman's biggest fear in doing that is it being held against her. I've had women do that to me, like I've had a friend, we dissolved a friendship, and then she would throw back all the things that I confided in her to hurt me. That is what makes women afraid to appear needy or to ask for help because they're afraid of it being held against them. That's also what caused women, I think, to be more independent.

John: Look, no one can hold something against you. They can think they can, but in reality, no one can ever really hold anything against you.

Nicole: I agree with what you're saying, and you're right, but it is different when it's the person you're spending your life with. It hurts more. It's easier to dismiss when it's not someone you care deeply about. You're afraid they're going to continue to do it, and now you feel like are they just doing things so they have an arsenal to hold against me when they're upset.

John: Let me give you an example. Sometimes it can feel like it's being held against you, but that's not the objective. Sometimes the objective is just to get recognition or appreciation. For instance, when I said I wake up at 5:40 in the morning and bring you coffee, and you said I don't have to do that, my reaction was wanting to be acknowledged for that. Not to hold it against you but to say, "This is how much I love you, this is how much I care for you." I want to feel appreciated for that.

John: If you're in the mindset of worrying about everything being held against you, then you're not going to appreciate the things that are given to you or done for you because you're constantly worrying that if I accept this gift or if I'm thankful for this, or if I want this thing that's been given to me, then am I going to feel obligated in some way?

Nicole: Or not. Well, a lot of people operate that way, and they don't want help from people because they don't want to feel like they owe somebody something.

John: Right, but that's, and when you're dealing with the external world, I generally agree. I always say never let anyone put their hooks in you. So, don't accept charity, don't accept gifts from people because you don't want to owe someone something. However, when you're in a relationship with someone, you have to cut those barriers down because it's not going to be healthy. It's not going to help you to be worrying about... You just have to accept graciously, I think is the key. And again, I think it is more of a feminine issue. Women, even compliments, a lot of times have a hard time accepting. But part of being feminine is accepting those compliments graciously, being thankful for them, being thankful for the things that you know because a man is, you know, if you think about it really, and again I'm talking about the ideal, well I think it's in the heart of all men. A lot of men don't even tap into their own heart and understand this, but a man in a relationship with a woman, especially married, the biggest thing that will bring him joy or happiness in his life is for her to be happy. That's like if he can make her life better, if I can have on my eulogy or whatever it's like, you know, he made Nicole the most happy, made her life as best as it possibly could be, you know, whatever, like those praises, those would be my highest accomplishment as a man, you know what I'm saying? Those are things that are most meaningful to me. And so that's why I think that sometimes it's misunderstood. If women understand this about a man's heart, then they see these things that he's doing and giving them as those are real.

Nicole: That's what is really important to him. It's not so that he can use it later, you know what I mean? But I do think it is confusing, like even the example where you wake up early and you bring me coffee, right? Like, I get that you were trying to prove a point, and I understand your perspective of it, and that you know, you didn't feel like I gave you the appreciation that you would like to feel, but also, I was like, I wake up and I give you a kiss and hug every morning, and then you're like, oh yeah, you do do that. And so, like, I feel like just using those examples sometimes they're not beneficial in the way that you think they are. And even at the end of our conversation, I told you to like, tell me one way that I support you that you liked, and then tell me but I would like support in other ways or I'm not feeling fully supported, though, right? And I feel like that is very needed when a man is talking to how he wants to be supported by his woman because it doesn't look the same for everybody. Like, in some degrees, yes, but it's also confusing because I do thank you when you bring me coffee, and I feel like, okay, maybe that's enough, but it wasn't enough, you know what I mean? And so that's fine, and you're valid for feeling that, but I also need to know what, like, more would you want? And it doesn't have to be like in that exact instance, but it needs to be clarified because it is confusing. And like I said, it's not the same for everybody. Like you said with the Love Languages thing, it's like, how do you feel best supported? And there are things that a woman can do that is universal, like showing her appreciation by saying thank you every time, or, you know, if that's not enough, then, you know, making him coffee sometimes, or there are things. Like, I'm not saying that there aren't ways to come up with things, but I feel like you do have to, especially if you're expressing that your needs aren't being met, you can't just be like, well, you figure it out. And I get why you want to say that because you want it to be genuine, but at the same time, if you're a team, you want to be working together, right? Like just like you're working to provide for the family, and you want her to join in on that by supporting you. It's a team effort, right? And so, and even if it's like a woman's needs aren't being met, she has to bring it to her husband in a way that's like, I appreciate you doing this for me, but I'm lacking this, or something, you know what I mean? Like, it still has to be done in the right way because it is a confusing thing, right? And even if, even though it's about the person talking, and our situation was complicated because I, you asked me what was wrong, and I started saying things, and then none of that got resolved, and then this new thing came up, right? And I've already talked about that. That's hard for me to, especially hard for me to empathize when I still have these problems, and now they feel even more pushed under the rug. And so now I'm supposed to sit and listen to someone talk about something when my feelings got discarded, but needless to say, with that, like, you, like each person is valid in what they feel, but at the same time, I do feel like you're responsible for how you express it and what is the best way. And I didn't do it the best way when I brought you my issues, and I acknowledge that, but after having the conversation, I know that how important that is and how important it is to be vulnerable and come from that place, and that it's okay to appear needy and things like that. But at the same time, I do feel like it is important to try to pay attention as much as you can to what you're saying and how you're approaching your partner because those things do matter. Especially, like I said, to a woman, she doesn't want to feel like, you know, these things are being held against her, and like, should I ask him to not bring me coffee anymore? Because is he going to say, like, and I'm not saying say that in the moment, yeah, but even after that, though, it does make a woman feel like, is he bothered by this thing or no? Never. He's never bothered by it. That's the answer. That's what I'm trying to get at, is that the answer is no, he's never bothered by it. He's doing things for you because he wants to do them for you, and he just wants to be acknowledged for it. He doesn't even need more thank you. He just wants you in the moment to acknowledge it. That's the thing, is to say, oh, I love when you do that, thank you so much. I appreciate that. It also is the counter to having feeling like someone so.

John: For example, even if we use that example where I said if someone gives you some candy and then hands you a bill, when they hand you the bill, you could say, "Oh wow, thank you for giving me that candy. I really liked the candy." It's like they don't have anything to say to that. Your acknowledgment of it, it's like if you're like, "Oh, let me give you back the candy." No, it was a gift. And if you acknowledge a gift, then you take away the obligation part of it. It's just, I think when gifts are not acknowledged, that's when someone feels like now they're owed something because it's like, "I did this for you out of the kindness of my heart. If you're treating it transactionally, then now I feel like it's transactional," whereas, you know, because the answer is always right.

John: And it's hard to accept, but if a man is doing something for you, he wants to. He enjoys doing it. We love to serve, we love to serve our wives, to serve our women. That's, well, let's only talk about, I mean, in every man's heart of hearts, though, that is the truth. Because this is how men are built, right? Masculine wants to support, wants to provide, wants to, you know. And so, that's what it really comes down to. So, the answer is never to be like, "Oh, you don't have to do that for me." Probably the worst thing that you could ever say to a man, one of the worst things, is, "Oh, don't do that for me," or "You don't have to do that for me," or "I didn't ask you to do that for me." Those are like daggers in the heart because as a man, I get my sense of self, like in a relationship, sense of worth, and for how much I'm providing for the people that depend on me. And when a person says, "I don't need you to do that for me," or "You shouldn't have done that," or "I didn't ask you to do that," it's like, "You don't matter. All your efforts are worthless. I don't care about your efforts."

Nicole: I understand what you just said, that it feels hurtful when you did something nice for somebody, and then they're like, "Well, don't do that," or "I didn't ask you to do it." I understand that, but I also see where if the tables were turned, and I was like, "Well, I do all this for you. I do all this for you," you would understand where I'm coming from, but you'd also probably be like, "Does she want to do these things, or are they just..." you know? It's just, I don't feel like it's a good way for anybody to prove their point because what the actual point is, is that you're not feeling supported.

John: Well, the point, I think the point can be, "This is how much I love you."

Nicole: Yeah, but I think that you can express that in a way that isn't all of these tasks that you did. I mean, it can be demonstrated by the things that you do, and the things that, I think that's still valid. Why would, I mean, I disagree. I will agree to disagree, but I think it's just, it puts somebody in a confusing position is what I'm saying. Not if you have to point something out because it's, you know, it needs to be understood.

John: I think that, you know, there are times where that's important, right? Because I mean, I just feel like I'm able to convey to you without, the only time I feel like I bring stuff up is if I'm in a defensive mode. But whenever I'm talking about something that's bothering me with you, I don't feel like I need to bring things up like that because I personally don't think it's beneficial. I think it's more beneficial to talk about the underlying need and what is lacking rather than talk about all the things that I've already done to try to prove something, if that makes sense.

Nicole: Well, I mean, I think that it is important to say what has happened, like what, because a lot of things are not seen, are not acknowledged, right? And I think that it's perfectly valid to say, like for example, a lot of women are in the opposite position where, hey, they work a job, they cook, they clean, they take care of the kids, they're doing all this stuff. The guy, he's working a job, but then he's watching TV or playing video games, right? So it's perfectly valid for a woman in that circumstance to go to the guy and say, "Hey, look, I am working a job just like you. I do your laundry, I take care of the kids, I do all this stuff, right? This is how I'm showing up and showing that I care about you and I love you in this relationship." And so, like, I would appreciate some acknowledgment for those things.

John: I hear what you're saying. I literally feel like no man ever has an epiphany when a woman says that stuff, to be honest. And that's what I'm trying to say. It just makes a man, and whoever is in that situation, defensive. That's the point I'm trying to make because everything you just said, right? I know exactly how that would play out if I was in a room with people talking like that, and the man would be like, "I go to work every day, and I take out the trash, and I do this." It doesn't turn into, "Oh wow, she does..." It should. I'm not saying that you're wrong, that it should make a man be like, "She is doing all this stuff. I really appreciate that," but that isn't how it normally turns out. It normally becomes the time that now he's going to talk about all the things that he does. That's what I'm trying to say, is that it's not wrong.

John: That's where the roles come in, right? Because see, a man does all of these things to support the family. He goes to work, maybe he wakes up early in the morning, he does all these things. A woman can't compare herself to those things, right? And a man shouldn't be trying to compare a woman to those things, right? It's what he puts in, it's what she puts in, right? He puts in the protection, the providing, the protecting from the stresses of the world. She puts in the nurturing and the support, which is why I think that the conversation would be better not to be handled that way because then it does feel like you're...

John: Competing with each other, you know what I mean? Instead, she should talk about how if she felt like he handled some of the other stuff, it wouldn't be as much of a toll on her. Then she could focus on supporting him and being there for him because she wouldn't have all this stuff that he doesn't appreciate, or rather, that he's not seeing. Instead of her listing out all the things and being like, "See why I do all this stuff? Why don't you appreciate me?" That's what I'm trying to say. I understand where spelling it out would make people realize what they're not seeing.

Nicole: But normally, doing it that way just makes people defensive. Instead, if you come at it from a way where you're like, "I'm not feeling fully supported. I feel like there are some things that I do that you don't pay as much attention to." You don't have to say them, but you can say that. The second you bring out the laundry list, that makes a person want to be defensive. That person has to work really hard to not be defensive towards that. Maybe they can do that if they're very emotionally evolved. I think it's better to go about it in the way I just mentioned, where you're talking about the need specifically. You can say something along the lines of, "I feel like there are things that I've been doing that aren't being noticed, and so I'm not feeling supported or desired in this way, and I want to bring it to your attention." If you need certain examples, maybe she will say, "Well, what are you doing?" Then you can say the things. But I feel like if you're just starting the conversation and you're like, "I do this, this, and this for you, and all I ask for is support," that just feels like an attack on the other person rather than working together as a team.

John: Yeah, does that make sense?

Nicole: Yeah, I see that perspective. That makes sense. I'm not saying that it's wrong to have things that are being unappreciated, but I just don't think it's beneficial to the cause of fixing the problem to lay them all out like that.

John: Yeah, I mean, I think it's only in the case where there's an imbalance, or you feel like the things aren't appreciated, then I think they do have to be called out. Otherwise, how will a person know? If a person doesn't understand, like with the woman's perspective of doing all this stuff and doing the job and the household, which again, we're talking about the opposite of that because that's not the role we're recommending. If that's not pointed out, so many men are oblivious to it. That's why so many of the men that I've worked with have ended up on the bad end of a divorce because that never was pointed out to them. It should have been. They're like, "Why did this happen?" And I'm like, "Well, let's see. You were working a job, and that's all you were doing, and she was doing everything else. You had friends, and you hung out, and you did all the kind of stuff that you would do in your normal life, and her life wasn't good because she was picking up all the slack for you."

Nicole: That's why it happened. But, you know, had there been an intervention, had there been that communicated very clearly that, "Hey, this is not a fair deal," I think it has a chance for fixing things. But if that's not communicated, it doesn't have a chance.

John: It's just hard for me to picture the part that you're talking about because I don't feel like any man would acknowledge what a woman's doing. I feel like they would just try to compare.

Nicole: Well, I'm not saying any man. I did say any man, but I'm saying that literally, a majority of the men that have been in that conversation do not respond with, "Oh yeah, you are doing so much, honey. Let me do the dishes tonight," or something like that. They should be, right? Because that's what a man's expecting from his wife when she, you know, it should be the same thing. But it's normally not met with that.

John: I understand what you're saying. That's how everybody should be responding, caring about what your partner's saying. But that's also why I was trying to explain that it makes people more defensive to be like, "I did this for you, and I do this every day, and I do this." It has to be worded the right way. In that situation, if the guy's already playing video games and his wife's doing all the other stuff, he's probably already the kind of guy that's not going to be receptive. In a healthy functioning relationship, well, and she's probably got resentment built up.

Nicole: The more important part of it, I think, that makes a difference too between men and women, is that a man takes pride in everything that he does and provides and does for the family. A man does want to call that out and say, "These are the things that I'm doing." It's like a man wants to say, "Hey, I wake up early in the morning," and get acknowledgment for those things. It's not as much of, I'm not saying that women don't care about that, but they don't take pride in how hard they work, in general, in a family situation. In other ways, they take pride in that, but that's not what defines their value. For a man in a relationship, it defines his value. If that's not appreciated or acknowledged or known, then he doesn't really like, why? Because that's why he's doing all that stuff, because he loves the people that he's providing for. That's why he does the things that he does every day, in a good man, I guess you could say.

Nicole: Anything else on that?

John: I don't think so. Was there anything that you wanted to add to what we talked about?

Nicole: Just the final thing, which is because we kind of went all over the place, but is that the key is the synergy when you have both of those things operating when the man is able to be as unburdened by the things that.

John: It depends on the context because, for example, if you're a lumberjack not making much money and in a double income household, maybe it's helpful for his wife to wake up early, make him breakfast, and pack his lunch. That support enables him to have the energy to work effectively.

Nicole: And for someone like you?

John: For me, it's different. Making my breakfast or lunch isn't what I need. I deal with mental stresses, so support for me is more about admiration, appreciation, feeling relaxed, loved, and valued in various ways. That's what helps me function at full capacity.

Nicole: Should the woman be verbally appreciated for her support?

John: Yes, it should be acknowledged. Acknowledging that someone has made you feel acknowledged is important. Men would benefit from doing more of this too. It helps a woman understand how best to support you. Like when you left me a note and I told you I really liked that, it encourages you to continue doing things that are appreciated.

Nicole: So, it's about open communication and positive reinforcement to help each other support and appreciate one another effectively?

John: Exactly. It's about giving examples or encouragement to continue supporting each other in the way needed. If you're thinking as a team, you consider how you can help your partner succeed, which in turn helps both of you succeed together.

Nicole: But what if the support doesn't lead to success? I've been in a situation where I supported a man financially and emotionally, and it didn't help him thrive.

John: That's tricky. You can't force someone to succeed if they're not willing. But as a partner, you can think about what makes your man feel empowered and supported in his endeavors. It's not just about doing household chores but also about thinking how you can help him advance in his career and life.

Nicole: It sounds like it's about finding the right balance and ways to support each other, but it can be confusing for women to understand exactly how to do that.

John: It is about balance and understanding each other's needs. It's crucial to communicate and figure out what support looks like for each individual, as it varies from one person to another.

John: What you just said is confusing because I supported him financially because I thought that was supporting him, and you're like no, that's wrong. And then also, I've tried on things before that you don't necessarily like, and I think look cute on me. So, is it something that a woman is overthinking? You make it sound so easy. You're like, "Put something on that will make him feel like a man," and you're like, "Oh, I look cute," and then you go in, and the guy might be like, "Yeah, that looks nice," and then you're like, you know.

Nicole: So, I'm not saying I get what you're saying, and I'm not saying you have to give a list, okay, but that's why I'm trying to say if you give a little bit, you will help her. If you financially support a man, it's like enabling. It's the opposite of support. You want to do the opposite of that. Oh, trust me, I know that was not a good idea, but I was young and not very... I'm just saying, make him do stuff for you. That's also how you make a man feel desired. Ask him to do stuff for you. Don't do stuff to him; make him do something. That's where women get it confused too. That's why they need a little bit of help.

John: Give him money, ask him for money. You want to support a man, ask him for money. I know that sounds really weird that I'm saying this right now, but look, if a guy, a young man, is dating a girl, and she's like, "I really want this house," or "I really want this house that has a fireplace in the bathtub," you're like, "Man, I got to get my woman this house. I got to bust some out, maybe I'm going to work some overtime this weekend." Like, I got to get her that thing that she wants. Again, I'm not saying to misuse this or abuse this in order to be a gold digger, to just extract resources from a man. That's all I'm saying. But I'm saying that the way you support a man is probably...

Nicole: I'm glad you said this, and I know we're running a lot over, but it's worth it because we, after this whole episode, we finally got to the actual meat of it, which is that the way that you support men is the opposite of what you think it is. It's to be needy. It's to ask him for stuff. It's to make him step up because you want something from him. It's to not only accept his gifts but ask for what you want. Him to propose... I'm just kidding. Well, let's not spiral. That one has to be his own thing. That one doesn't count. That's not it. But you can talk about that. But instead of asking him to propose, right, you can say, "Oh, I really would love to have a nice house someday and some kids and for us to be able to go on vacation to Branson, Missouri, to stay at the Woodland Lodge." You're like, "I know an Airbnb," but you know what I'm saying? That's the main point. It's the opposite of what you think. Like, the way that you support a man is by having him work more.

John: That's why it helps her to get some examples because then she can get in the mindset of it being the opposite. You know what I mean? Because otherwise, she, even though you just said it's the opposite, she's still trying to figure it out. So that's why I think it's best for anybody to be like, "Hey, I really liked it when you came downstairs and kissed me when I walked through the door." Yeah, of course, encourage. I mean, you know, that was really nice, but I feel like I haven't been supported in some other areas lately. So then she's like, "Okay, so he likes it when I give him physical affection, or he likes it when I kiss him." Now, maybe I'll put my arm on his or touch his arm or something. Yeah, but it's also romantic if you come up with it on your own. I'm not saying don't come up with any on your own, but I'm saying you just told women it's opposite, and they're all sitting here, who's actually watching, what the heck does that mean? We need like a whole another episode. But when I started bringing you coffee in the morning since we moved here, you know, it was about a week after you had casually mentioned and said, "Oh, I remember when you used to, when we lived at the old place, and you used to both get up to go for work, and you'd make me coffee." Oh, and I heard that, and then ever since then, I've been doing it every single day, right? Because I want to please you, because I want you to be happy, because I want to provide for you, I want to do things for you.

Nicole: You see, and so that's besides the one time you put lemonade in my... Well, yes, by accident. But you see what I'm saying? That's why it is the opposite. Like, supporting a man is making him feel useful and acknowledging his usefulness, and making, you know, that part, and of course, the sexual part of it too. But again, like I said, the sexual part of it too is not... I mean, yeah, it's great. I mean, guys like to have things done to them. We're not going to make this graphic, but it's more you asking him to do stuff to you, right? Or to you know, like you showing desire by wanting him, not wanting to show him affection by wanting affection from him. Even the same thing with the neediness. If you show affection to a man by hugging him, it's way more effective if you say, "Can you hug me?" That shows more.

John: Now you just literally blew my mind. That shows more affection by saying, "Can you hug me? Can you hold me?" So just ask for everything.

Nicole: And then be appreciative. Okay, well, I don't know if any other women watching this are like, they made it this far, mind blown. If you're a woman and you didn't know this, put the mind blown emoji in the comments because my mind is blown. You gave me the light bulb because I realized it is actually the opposite of what... But that's also why they need a little bit of help because even what you just said, I would never have thought, even though you just said do the opposite, I would have never thought it would mean more to you for me to be like, "Can you hug me?" than just hugging you.

John: Oh yeah. I think if you survey nine out of ten men, we'll have to ask Rodrigo after that.

Nicole: Well, let's... I mean, what do you think, Rodrigo? Do you agree?

John: Yeah, being asked to, sure.

John: Right, like 100%? Or are you just saying it?

Nicole: I'd say probably, I don't know, 80%.

John: 80%? Okay. I mean, that's still a majority.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean, it feels good to get a hug, but it feels better to ask someone to hug you. As a man, for a woman to ask you to hug her.

John: Okay, well, yeah. See, men like to give. Men are givers. It's so weird because so many men are opposed to it today, and they think they don't want to because, you know why men don't want to be givers today?

Nicole: I'll tell you why.

John: Why?

Nicole: Men want to be 50-50 because they feel like women don't appreciate it. That they don't ask, that men give without being asked, and then women are like, "I don't want that," or "I don't need that. I can do it myself." Stop calling women needy. That's the first thing you need to stop doing.

John: Yeah, those men. But men are givers. That is really what makes a man feel valuable. He wants to give. So, when you ask, my mind is blown when you say, "I want something from you. I need something from you." Men need to feel useful. It makes them feel useful. So, there you go.

Nicole: Well, you heard it here, folks.

John: All right. I guess, long... yeah, all right. Uh, leave us a review on iTunes, you know. We haven't gotten one in a while. It's still the last one, banana fingers. So, go on. You've got to be better than banana fingers. I mean, banana fingers is good. We appreciate you, but let's step it up here.

Nicole: All right. We'll see you next week. Take care. Through every fault, we find our way.