John: Culturally, a lot of times, it's perceived as if she's doing a favor for him by having sex with him, instead of thinking, "I need to do this just because I want my partner to be happy." Get yourself in the mood or be receptive to being seduced. If it's like an obligation, then it's going to become mature. First of all, guys, that's not a good way to look at your relationship. You shouldn't be thinking, "I'm doing her a favor." No, you shouldn't think that way either. They should be trying to do that beyond the perfect. We discover through our flaws; we complete each other better than perfect. We stay through every fault we find.

Nicole: All right, welcome back to the Better Than Perfect podcast, where every week we share with you how two imperfect people helping each other equals one helping each other grow. I was like, is he going to say it? Maybe we should cut the "grow" out. Equals one better than perfect relationship. We got a word for it.

John: Then I was like, did he do it on purpose? And then, next time, I will get it right, the "grow." So yeah, welcome back.

Nicole: All right, so, well, yeah, welcome back. We're still here. Yeah, for us, it's a second episode because we got our queue lined up, but you could pretend like this is a new week. For you, it's a new week, so you can pretend like it's a new week for us. So, there you go.

John: Yeah, so not a lot happened in the last few minutes. Well, we had a very like, oh yeah, we did have a conversation with Rodrigo.

Nicole: Yeah, which maybe Rodrigo needs to be our first guest.

John: Yeah, we should do that because it was good. We were like, we should have turned the camera on.

Nicole: I know. We were talking about confidence and getting out of your comfort zone and how the exercises that you can do that would do that, which is good. I mean, especially for guys listening, where I was talking about how doing pickup, even though it gets so bad rap, it's a huge benefit for men in terms of personal development, not just because it's building their confidence.

John: Right, because it forces you to be uncomfortable, and that will make it so that you have a wider bubble of comfort. And also, probably helps men be more comfortable with rejection because it's very scary when a man hasn't dealt with that in a large capacity, and they can get very violent and scary when that happens.

Nicole: Yeah, the more you do it, the more you go up to women and talk to them, the less that a rejection is going to hurt you because you know you have the skill set to talk to women and go meet someone else if it doesn't work out with the one that you talked to.

John: Yeah, and it just affects all of your life. I mean, if we could roll the clip of my old YouTube videos, my voice was different. I mean, we talked about it. It's like I try to emulate it. It's a nasal, "Hey, this is John from simpleprogrammer.com, and today I want to talk to you about relationships." I don't know. I just, that. But I speak from the chest now. But it wasn't necessarily a conscious thing. It was because I was constricted, and once I got that freedom because I was going out there and putting myself in these difficult situations, it released that. So, it allowed me to be who I am.

Nicole: Exactly. Yeah, it's crazy. It definitely does make a huge difference, and people pick up on it, and they know it too. That's why also it's like a guy that's confident because he is not afraid to talk to women, or he's done that, they have different body language. And same with women too. I mean, you can tell if a woman is insecure about either how she looks or whatever versus how a woman who's confident carries herself.

John: Yeah, it all shows in how you carry yourself too. And the only way to accomplish that is through doing the hard stuff, being in embarrassing situations where you get to a point where you're like, okay, I've felt this, and I survived it. It's not that bad.

Nicole: Yeah, you have to put yourself in the situation. If you don't put yourself into it, if you're involuntarily thrust into it, you don't get as much benefit. In fact, it can cause you to develop a phobia because you're afraid of just like when you're a kid and your parent throws you into the pool.

John: You can either allow it to, or you can own it. That's your choice. But you're right, if you put yourself in the situation, you're controlling it. Another thing is something you can't control, but even if it's something you can't control, you have the opportunity to either internalize it and make you afraid, or own it and then allow it to give you more confidence because you're like, look, I already did that. That's why people will be like, oh, like even now when I go to a dance class, people will be like, oh well, if I just assume I'm going to mess up, a lot of times when I record the dance, I don't mess up because I already assumed that I did. I already felt that feeling. They mentally can put themselves in a position of messing up, so if they go and mess up, they're okay because mentally they told themselves it'll be fine.

Nicole: Exactly, if that happens. And then a lot of times, though, it doesn't happen, and then they're like, oh, that's great. I was already preparing for this to happen.

John: Yeah, it's a lot like the concept of learned helplessness too, right? Because that's why, if you know that experiment with the dogs and the electric shock. If the dogs were shocked without having any control, they couldn't get out of the shock, they learned helplessness, and they just allow themselves to be shocked. But if they had some kind of control over it, then they start to develop your sense of sovereignty, that you have control over your life and circumstances. But actually, there was one other thing I was thinking of, that is one little hack that we hadn't talked about, and this is a good one for guys. One way that I used to use to get over nervousness or this problem of being in this situation.

John: An uncomfortable situation, especially if you're going out and talking to girls, is that you can vocalize what is happening internally, and then you no longer feel it. So, if I'm afraid to talk to you, and I go up to you and I start talking to you but I'm nervous, if I don't say that I'm nervous, you will know that I'm nervous because I'll be shaking, my voice will be shaky. I'm trying to pretend to not be nervous, but if I simply say to you, "I'm so nervous right now," it just... I'm so nervous. All of a sudden, now that nervousness dissipates. It might not 100% dissipate because you owned up to it.

Nicole: Yeah, because you're not trying to hide the thing. You've expressed the thing. When you're embarrassed, if you say, "Oh, that's embarrassing," right? A lot of times, we hide the thing, but if we just give the internal monologue outwardly, then it's a huge hack for getting through those situations.

John: Right, you're owning it.

Nicole: Yeah, you know, you're owning up to it. That makes sense. Alright, so we have today our topic is the book we've been talking about on quite a few episodes, "Love and Respect" by Dr. Emerson Eggerichs.

John: EG Riches.

Nicole: EG Riches, but yeah, we've been talking about this for a while. We finally finished going through the entire book.

John: Yeah, and I think it's a mixed bag in terms of... I think we needed to do this because we talked about it, and we don't want to give the wrong impression and like say, "Oh yeah, we agree with..." We King's going to read it. He said multiple times he's reading it. So, King, this is also for you because we recommended it, and then you said you were going to read it, and now we need to explain ourselves.

Nicole: Well, I'll let you start. What are your thoughts overall on the book?

John: I liked the book, the concept of the book I liked. However, I think people who read the book and don't kind of focus strictly on the concept might be a little confused or like not get the full message of what he's trying to say.

Nicole: Yeah, that well, or that we agreed is the full message, right? Because the concept of love and respect and the little acronym things that he uses are good, right? And that's the core of the book. And he talks about this thing called the crazy cycle, which we'll have to talk about. It makes sense. Like those aspects, and we're not very religious, but I can still objectively read the religiousness of it and understand it, but some of the religious stuff just did not make sense, and I thought, and you, I know you agreed too, could be almost harmful for the ways that it's applied. So that's why we wanted to talk about it because it's a lot to it rather than just the concept, which was good, but some of the reasoning behind the things that he talks about, his reasoning is concerning.

John: So, and caveat here for this book, it's highly religious. It's written by a pastor who, this is his ministry. So, Christian theology, again, nothing wrong with Christian theology if you're Christian. We're not going to knock your religion. That's not the point of it, but we will say some things that I think are important to understand why you do things, and if you're doing some of the love and respect things just because God told you to, right, then it diminishes the value of it to your partner.

Nicole: Right, because you're just doing it because you're supposed to do it, as opposed to, well, and the intent behind it, like the reasoning of why you should be doing this because I don't feel like it should be attached to anything but the love and respect you have for your partner.

John: Exactly, and that's the biggest, I think, issue that I have with the book. And like I said, if you do read this book, just know that it is going to have a lot of scripture in it, a lot, and a lot of the basis of this scripturally is a bit flimsy, I would say, because he's got one passage in Ephesians that he uses to mostly do this. But that doesn't take away from the concept. I think the concept of love and respect, and just to give what is the concept of love and respect, it's essentially this: it is that what women need most from their partner is unconditional love, and what men need most from their partner is unconditional respect.

Nicole: And unconditional respect is the new kid in the playground, the scene, right? Yeah, because that's not something that you've really probably ever heard of.

John: Yeah, and it seems weird at first, like that's not the... But what it comes down to is the fact that what really is valuable to a woman is love, is feeling loved, and what's really valuable to a man is feeling respect. Not that both don't want both because men want to be respected and love, involve both, honestly. But it's just like what you said, is that the forefront for women is love, and the forefront for men is respect. But there is love in respect, and there is respect in love.

Nicole: Right, but it's just the balance of it. Just like men and women have feminine and masculine energies, it's, they have, they're together, right? But it's the balance of it. Men want the respect more so to stand out than the love, and women want the love more so than... I'm not saying they don't want respect. I'm not saying disrespect them, but normally when you're acting from a place of love, you are giving respect, and if you're acting from a place of respect, you are giving love.

John: Exactly, yeah. It's just which one is the more important need at that. If you ask a man what is he lacking, or you know, if he has a complaint about his partner, it's probably going to be, "She doesn't respect me," in some form of way. That's going to be the thing that is getting him upset. And if you ask a woman what is the thing that's upsetting you about your partner, it's like, "He doesn't love me. He doesn't show me that you know." And he says in the book also that women typically show a lot of love. They never... A man never questions, "Does she love me?" He knows that she loves. Right, but women often question, "Does he actually love me? Does he love me as much as I love him?" Those are, you know.

Nicole: And then on the other side, the respect thing, women don't usually wonder... I mean, I was going to say, do men really show women a ton of respect, though? Because when they're with her, maybe, but not well, not outside of that, as we've seen with some of these guys. But they typically will say things or have a conversation, or let's say where it really comes down to is when you're having a fight, when you're having an argument. And this is where that crazy cycle that he calls it comes into play, which is the woman doesn't feel loved, so she acts in a disrespectful way. The man doesn't feel respected, so he acts in an unloving way. And the way that you see this is that women will typically, in an argument, be critical, right? Say things that are somewhat harsh, and men will tend to stonewall or withdraw.

John: Right, which is an unloving thing. And so it's like because there, it's fueling this cycle.

John: The best thing about this book is because everyone can recognize when they've been on this crazy cycle where, you know, the woman's not feeling loved, the man's not feeling respected, and those things fuel each other, keep going.

Nicole: Exactly, because the more that you're not making me feel respected, the more that I'm withdrawing, and the more that I'm withdrawing, the more that you're getting upset and unloved, and then being more disrespectful.

John: Yeah, yeah. So just understanding that concept alone probably could save your marriage. Like, if you just get that, the concept is really good.

Nicole: It's just the rest of the stuff that is murky. We understand it, but where other people might get the wrong idea of why they should be doing this. And that's why we wanted to do an episode on this. Because the way he explains why you should do it, granted it's from a religious aspect, it still doesn't put the value in doing it for your partner because you love them and you respect them and you want to be with them. And this is the person you chose to spend the rest of your life with, and you want to honor that commitment. It's more so in his theory from a place of, "God told you to do this, so you should do this," regardless of what happens, which also is controversial. There were some passages in the book where he's like, "Oh, if your husband is abusive, to not deal with that sort of thing," but there were still some examples that seemed borderline abusive that he was like, "Still respect him anyway," which is, as a woman, hard to read and think about because that can be a very dangerous situation for a woman to be in. And even if she is respecting him and he continues to do it, it's not going to fix everything. It might, like the way he's saying it might, but also at that point, if you're being abused, it's really hard to respect somebody who's doing that to you.

John: For sure. So, there are some complications around that. I think it's worth talking about the respect thing before we get into some of that because, one, it's a very confusing topic, especially this idea of unconditional respect. And also, a lot of people got upset about some of the things you said about respect too, which I've got some statements about that. But the idea of unconditional respect is this idea that you respect, let's say for a woman, respect a man because he's your husband, because you chose him, and he doesn't have to earn that respect. He just gets that respect, just like you as a woman don't feel like you have to earn your love. Like, that would be weird if it's like, "Okay, well, I don't love you today because you didn't earn it." So, that's the kind of idea behind it, is that respect should also be unconditional, which again, seems like a very crazy concept until you really think about it. And what I would say about it, honestly, because we were talking about this earlier, because a lot of people got upset when you said that women need to respect their husbands, and if you chose him and you don't respect him, that's on you. Like, you're not respecting your own judgment. And a lot of people commented, even men commented, "Respect has to be earned." And I've dealt with this a lot. I gave a whole speech about this at one point at a convention I was at, and my stance on it is that respect does not have to be earned, not by anybody. That you, as a decent human being, should just respect everybody by default, and you should only respect people and not ever even take away the respect from people. You should take yourself away from the people. So, have boundaries. I'm never going to allow someone, as far as it's within my control, to make me into a person that disrespects people, no matter how they treat me. If they can be disrespectful to me all they want, but I'm not going to respond to them in a disrespectful way. I'm still going to pay them respect, treat them in a respectful way, but I may also excuse myself from their life or excuse them from my life. I'm not going to deal with them. I'll cut them out. I have boundaries, but there's no reason why you should ever be disrespectful to anyone. It doesn't make sense as a concept. There's no justification to treat someone in a disrespectful way. So, I think to me, that kind of clears up the whole thing because, yeah, you should just be respectful, period. Not because someone earned it or they have to prove something. And like I said, no one likes to have to, especially in a marriage where you're supposed to be one and you're supposed to unconditionally love each other. You expect that you don't have to do something in order. And a lot of people have the whole issue that they have psychologically is that they feel like they have to do something to be good enough, and you don't want to...

Nicole: Well, that comes from a lot of reasons. But yeah, and I agree with what you're saying. I think you should respect people, and like you said, even if they lose your respect, that doesn't mean you have to act disrespectful. That just means removing yourself from that person. Same with trust because people also say trust is earned, right? But really, you should trust people until they give you a reason not to, until they do something, they lied to you or something like that. And then again, you don't lie to them or try to get even. You just either don't continue to have a relationship with them or don't tell them things that they lied about or whatever you choose to do. But like you said, you don't allow people to put you down on a lower level. You should still maintain your morals and your standards and how you operate, regardless of what other people do. And like you said, you wouldn't meet somebody for the first time and be like sizing them up, be like, "Okay, well, what are... Let's see what they do so I can respect them." Like, you're not waiting for the thing or tell them, "Hey, go do this so I can respect you," or something like that. You know, every... And we're all human. We make mistakes. And like I mentioned before, in some of the other things, a lot of times, women stop respecting their husband not because they've even done something disrespectful. It's usually because he stopped showing her love, like this book talks about.

John: Exactly. Like, everybody makes mistakes. Because if women are trying to say, "Oh, well, I lost respect for him because he did something for me to lose respect," you've never done anything to lose respect, or you've never yelled at him, and he's taken away the love for you? Like, you can't do that to another person. You can't have somebody make a mistake, your husband make a mistake, and then be like, "Oh, well, now I don't respect you," and take it away. Whereas he could be like, "Oh, well, remember that time you told me you hated my guts? Well, now I don't love you anymore." Like, that would never be acceptable behavior. I can see where it all goes.

John: Astray, like you said, on the crazy cycle because, you know, she's not feeling loved, so she's disrespectful, says disrespectful things, and he's feeling disrespected, so he's being unloving. I can totally see where that comes into play. But nowhere, especially if you're married, does taking these things away as a punishment bring you closer together.

Nicole: Exactly. Yeah, it's not a motivator. It will separate you further, and that's where it builds that bitterness, right? Resentment. And I was talking about this on one of the episodes too, but I think it's worth repeating. I compare it to tooth decay. That's how because people are always like, "How does the honeymoon phase end?" I'll tell you exactly how it ends, the same way your teeth rot. What ends up happening is that you have arguments, fights, disagreements, and it's like plaque building up on your teeth. If you don't clean that plaque off of your relationship, off your teeth, go to the dentist, brush your teeth, whatever, what's going to happen is that it's going to end up developing tooth decay.

John: That plaque in a relationship looks like bitterness, it looks like resentment, it becomes resentment, and then that creates a wedge between you. So, the more that a woman feels like she's been mistreated, she hasn't been loved or accepted for who she is, that's unconditional love, accepting someone for who they are, right? The more that she starts to build up that resentment, that plaque, and then she's disrespecting the man because she doesn't feel loved. So, he starts to build up that resentment, and he's like, "She's always saying stuff to me that is so disrespectful or acting in a disrespectful way." And they both may be being cordial to each other, but just like in your teeth, where the cavity, you need to do the X-ray to see it because it's actually rotting underneath the enamel. Like, there is rot underneath there, the same thing happens in a relationship. Underneath all that, you got rot. Your teeth are rotting out. Can you tell that John's gone to the dentist recently? He likes the X-ray shows under the enamel, but that's how it happens, and it comes from a lack of love and respect, of not respecting those things.

Nicole: Right. Well, and the people got mad because, like you said, I said you should respect your husband and or the man that you're with, and they're like, "Oh well, just because he's a man, I should respect him?" You should. Like we talked about, you should respect a human being, regardless if it's a man or a woman, regardless. And even if they do something disrespectful, yeah, you should still act respectful, right, and have boundaries and separate yourself if that's what you choose to do. And what I also mentioned in one of the other videos that I did off of that video was that if you do, if you meet a man and he does something and you lost respect and you know you don't trust him anymore or whatever, right? You should not marry him. You should not continue the relationship. It's your responsibility if you no longer respect the man you're with to leave. I'm not saying that if you're married because the thing is, that is a whole another can of worms involving commitment and you know, getting back to where you were because obviously you respected him to get married with him. I'm saying if you're dating and you lost respect for this guy and you just can't get it back, no matter what or whatever, don't marry him.

John: Yeah, and I got to read actually something on the TikTok comment because this one, it was just, it was really interesting. I thought, "Oh, I got your phone." But I also said, which if you are married and you disrespect or like you don't have respect for your husband, then you need to try everything you can to gain that respect back and figure it out. And there's another book that I'm sure we'll do a whole another episode on called "The Surrendered Wife," which I recommended, and it's written by a feminist woman.

Nicole: Yeah, on how to kind of give up the control that a lot of women take over when they don't respect their husbands in their relationship and give that back to him. And then by him taking that over and showing that he can handle these things and do these things that you were kind of taking over and hogging and micromanaging or whatever, and being the more masculine one, allowing him to take those over again, then you gain respect back for your husband.

John: Right, exactly. And you realize that you had more involvement in losing the respect from him than you even realized that you had because a lot, that's what women don't realize too, is a lot of times you are part of the reason you lost respect for him.

Nicole: Well, and they'll be mad about that too, but yeah, I know. But it's like if you are emotionally reactive and are the type of woman where you just do whatever you want and say whatever you want when you're upset but then expect all the things that you said to not mean anything when you guys make up, that's not okay. And a man's still going to feel disrespected even if you make up because that hurts, regardless of who you are. It hurts to have your partner, the person you love, the person you marry, say mean and hurtful and disrespectful things to you and then try to also be like, "Well, I was upset, it didn't matter."

John: Right, exactly. Or just ignore it and just blow it over, like sweep it under the rug.

Nicole: Exactly, or never acknowledge it. In fact, there was a great example in this book, one of the best examples in the book, I think it was, yeah, it was in this book, where he was talking about this woman who went to go visit her husband at work, and she didn't really respect him. And then she sees him, she has to wait to like get in because, you know, he's an important guy at this job that he's at. And she sees he's got this young, attractive secretary, and not that that, but that this woman respects him, thinks he's the boss. He's got all these older guys that are older than him that are coming up to him and treating him like the boss, like respecting him like he's an authority. And she was like, you know, I guess she went to her car and cried or whatever because she was like, "I like," she was realizing that at home she's treating him like a little kid. She's disrespecting him, and here, in the of the world, this man is a well-respected man. He's a competent guy. And so, the problem was not him; it was her view. She decided to view him that way, right, because she thought she lost the respect for him, and that, you know, he did something to lose it, and so she treated him that way.

John: Right, but then she got to see that there are people who respect him.

Nicole: Yeah, right, and treat him right with respect. And I think, not to justify affairs or whatnot because, and he was talking about that too, but I think there are a lot of guys can relate to feeling like, "What the heck? In the rest of the world, people respect me, people value me. I make money. I do these things. Like, I'm treated like a decent human being."

John: Respectable person I'm competent, but then I go home, and where I'm supposed to be respected the most, my partner treats me like a kid. She treats me like I'm a joke, you know? That's so insulting. That's why a lot of guys get drawn in by some women. It's not a justification, but it's not a secret that this is why a lot of men cheat. They cheat with a woman that's lesser than the woman they were with, but it's strictly because she respects him.

Nicole: And we could go to the other side. I've been cheated on by a man. I didn't respect the man that I was with that cheated on me, and I'm sure that the person he cheated with respected him more than I did. So, I can see the point of view. It's not okay, and I didn't intentionally disrespect him. He wasn't stepping up to be the man that I needed, so I had to be the man, which made me lose some respect for him. Sometimes, you're just not allowing him to be the man.

John: Exactly. But sometimes, he just cannot be the man that you need to be.

Nicole: That's why I said if you don't respect this man, I should have left even before he cheated on me because I did not respect him. If you're in a position where you're dating and you don't respect the man you're with, it's not going to be fixed. Did I know back then that I should have given him responsibilities and see what he did with it? I didn't know that. But also, at the same time, from the perspective of me knowing that situation, I genuinely don't think he could have ever been the man that I needed as a woman. He obviously was the man that woman needed since he ended up being with the woman he cheated on me with. But I know what you're saying had to have been true because I didn't respect him, so he obviously had to go try to find somebody that respected him more than I did.

John: And likewise, when women cheat, almost always the number one reason women cite is that their emotional needs weren't being met. A lot of guys are like, "Oh, that's an excuse that women use." Okay, I get it, but you could say the same thing about the excuse that men use. But the point is that she felt unloved. She finds a guy that starts romancing her and treating her like a woman, making her feel these feelings she didn't feel before because now she feels like she's beautiful, she's worthy, and she's got some guy's attention. That's how she gets drawn in.

Nicole: Right. So, just saying, we're not condoning cheating in any capacity. If you don't feel respected and you don't feel loved to the point you're going to cheat, you should leave. Or read this book together.

John: Reading the book together would be good. But it is questionable. It's definitely geared more towards women trying to fix the relationship, which also is another aspect that you and I have talked about. You feel like it's men's responsibility to lead the relationship in the right way, and I agree. You can't be a leader and the authority if you're not taking the responsibility. However, this book, I feel like, definitely paints women as the responsible party to take action first. I'm not saying that women shouldn't stop being disrespectful. They should. Everybody deserves respect off the bat. The second you're disrespectful, you're doing something wrong.

Nicole: Right. Even if somebody hurts you, even if something happens, if you stoop to a level where you change your standards of who you are, you're doing something wrong. The reason why Dr. Emerson did this, where he put the emphasis more on women, was because, at least within the church community, the idea of a man needs to love his wife like Christ loved the church has been spread far and wide. People understand that, but the respect part has never really been talked about. That's why he made the emphasis on that. But it still is, you know, I still think that it's the man's responsibility. And also, who reads these books? Let's be honest. Women read these books. Men don't read these books. If you find a man that's reading books on relationships, wife him up.

John: Let me do the comment on that video. This woman commented, "Oof, if my husband remembered how to actually care for himself, things would be different. My fault for taking all responsibility." So, I replied, "I'm sure he would do just fine taking care of himself without you." You'll be amazed at what she replied back, which was, "Oh my God, sure." So, you can see how she has very little value for her.

Nicole: I mean, can you imagine if he read this comment? Can you imagine if someone treated you like a child, didn't think you could take care of yourself? And I mean, it's just bad.

John: Which, here's the thing, I agree with you. It's not okay. And she is treating him like a kid, so he's acting like a kid who doesn't have responsibilities. We have a kid; the second we step in and start doing more things for her, the second she realizes, "Oh, I don't have to have the responsibility of this myself. They'll do it for me." That's what's happening to him. That's a natural response. But the other thing here too, to think about, which I'm not saying is happening in this instance, but it sparked something in my mind, is the Mama's boys who are used to their mom doing everything for them well into adulthood. Then they end up marrying a woman who they expect to do everything for them. Some men seem like they genuinely can't take care of themselves. I don't think that's the majority at all. However, I do think that there are some men that are babied so much by their moms that when they get into relationships, they are looking for a similar person so that they don't have to do the thing. They can just allow the woman to continue, like he's been catered to his whole life, doing those things and not having the responsibility because either he never learned at all because he didn't get the opportunity, or, you know, he's just enjoying the ride of the woman taking over and taking the responsibilities off of him.

John: And what the one thing I say that men are lacking the most today? Accountability. Pride, pride, pride in being a man, that's it.

Nicole: If you have pride as a man, you're not going to allow someone to treat you like a child because you have too much pride. You're going to pay for the meals; you're going to do the things that are... I have pride in myself as a man. I'm not going to be treated like a child. I would take care of myself, you know. So, lacking pride is what... But on the other hand, too, like you're saying, for a woman, what should she do in that situation? Let him think, right? Just like as a parent. That's hard for women, especially women who have gone out and they've been single and did the things that they needed to do. And then they get in a relationship, and they're often trying to control the situation in the way of doing things that she's always done, right? And so, they end up taking over a lot of things, and a man doesn't have to do those things for himself anymore, right? But instead of it being like a healthy partnership where you're just taking over different sort of things, the woman is still in her masculine. She's still trying to control the entire situation rather than you coming together as a couple and being like, okay, I'm going to take over the masculine responsibilities for you so you don't have to, and you're going to take over the feminine, right? But a woman comes in, and even if a man's been on his own and he knows how to take care of himself or whatever, she has a way of living that she was living. So, little things like you're not loading the dishwasher correctly, right? It's like OCD, women womanness over here, yeah. Which I get 'cause I am also an OCD woman, and I had to learn how to just like let it ride. And I think too, if you have kids, it's easier because you can't micromanage kids. You can't micro... And I'm not comparing kids to men, but I'm just saying that like with when kids come along, women learn easier to let go of control, yeah. But they don't realize they're treating their husbands like kids, right? But they're not letting the man take control because they're afraid that he won't do the things right, so they don't give him an opportunity to do them. Like he won't feed himself or clothe himself or wipe his butt. It's like, you know, that's why you got to think as a woman sometimes you got to be like, look, if I wasn't here, would he just die? Would he not know where to go in the car? Would he... No, he would figure it out. Like he would survive. He's a human being. He did it before me; he'd do it after me. So, that's the thing, how you can kind of let go of control is because I get it, but at the same time, you got to really think this guy survived. It's more that men aren't doing it the way that they want, like the exact way, right? 'Cause even we've talked about it at times when I've had my own controlling moments. It's like I'm thinking of efficiency, right? And I'm thinking of how can we do this with the path of least resistance, and a lot of times it's because I had to learn and figure it out, and I figured out how to do a more efficient way or, you know, let's clean up this so we don't have to clean up more later sort of thing. But at the same time, that's why I'm saying when you have kids, a lot of that goes out the door because you can't teach a 2-year-old to clean up while they're making a mess like they just can't comprehend, right? But men can comprehend, and it doesn't have to be done your exact way, right? Like if you tell your husband, can you do the dishes or something for me, I'm not feeling well. If he doesn't put the dishes in the dishwasher exactly how you want, that doesn't matter. They're getting clean. That's what matters. And a lot of times, women focus on those little minute details, and a lot of times they do it too because they feel unloved from other aspects, like their emotional needs aren't being met, and so they're trying to find things to nitpick and start a fight about.

John: Exactly, yeah. Yep, absolutely. And with that said, I think one of the things that you can do, like either partner can do, is to start doing their part. And it doesn't guarantee that you're going to fix your marriage or fix the other person, but in most situations, both people aren't doing it right. And so, it only takes one person doing the right thing in many cases to fix the entire thing. And you know, for example, if you're a husband and you start showing your wife unconditional love, you start being romantic, you start really treating her like the woman that is the love of your life that you value, she's probably going to start acting a lot more respectful. It's probably just going to naturally... She's probably going to stop nagging you. She's probably going to, you know... And if you're taking up your responsibility, if you start saying, you know, I'm going to take care of myself, take care of your responsibility, take things off her shoulder, take these masculine tasks off her shoulders, right? She's probably going to start acting more like you're the man because you're acting like the man. And the same thing if a woman who's been disrespecting her husband, if she starts writing him notes about how much she respects him, like says in the books, and starts acting in a very respectful way to him and tells him how much, and says, oh, why don't you... I'm not sure what to do in this situation. Could you give me some help? Could you help me? You're so wise, you know. If she starts saying stuff like that, the dude is going to be skipping on water. He's going to be walking on water and feel like... You think he's going to start acting more loving, probably. So, women also need to realize too, with what you just said, which is in the Surrendered Wife book, is that if you put that on your man, right? Like if you give him the space and be like, he can figure this out. He might flounder at first because you've been babying him, basically, like against his will, but he hasn't had the responsibility. He has to get his footing again, but he will. Most men will step up to the plate once you put that responsibility on them to be the man. They will step up and figure it out, granted you have to like hold back that controllingness until you learn that it's you need to let it go for good. But like you said, if you start practicing letting go of that control, showing your husband that you respect him, and allowing him to be the man, yeah, a lot of times men will step up to the plate and be the man that you need him to be, right? And it'll be easier for you to respect him that way because he's handling more things. He's showing you he can do it, and also taking it off your plate so that you can be more relaxed, right? And that will naturally cause the respect to come back to how it was before.

John: Exactly. And you, I've said this phrase a lot, but if you give a dog a bad name, you might...

John: As well hang the dog, and what that means is that a lot of times, if you have a wife that's disrespectful and you start treating her like she's a respectful wife, she'll start becoming one. And if you have a man that's unloving, you start treating him like he's a super loving husband, he'll start becoming it. It doesn't guarantee it, you know. You can only control yourself, and you shouldn't do it just to get a response from the other person. You should do it because it's the right thing to do.

Nicole: Right, and that also brings up the topic of one of the criticisms that I do have of the book, which we talked about a little bit. A lot of the motivation that's being put here is that the Bible says this and God says this. And I get that, and as a good Christian, you want to do the things that the Bible says, and I get that part. But I do think that if I said to you, "Hey Nicole, I love you unconditionally because I'm supposed to," or I started treating you much better, not that I, you know, but if we had a bad situation, and then I was secretly not really actually loving you unconditionally but I was acting the part because that's what I'm commanded to do, you'd probably be pretty insulted. And the same thing if a guy was like, "Oh, she's being really respectful to me. I'm so happy that she finally respects me," and then secretly, you know, she doesn't really respect him, she doesn't find him very respectable, but she's acting that way because she was commanded to do it, it would lose a lot of the meaning. It's also not sustainable.

John: Yeah, like it's really not. Like it might be somewhat from a religious standpoint because I do feel like people's faith in God is very sturdy and strong, and I think that that would make it sustainable. But the concept of doing it for any other reason besides you love this person and you're trying to fix your relationship and have the best relationship is not sustainable. Like if you do it for any other reason besides that, and the other reason he added in there was you get rewards in heaven, like the angels are like, "That was..." I was like, "Oh, please." He literally said "ch-ching," and that was honestly the part I liked the least about the book. It kind of made all of the good points, they're still good, like love and respect, it just put a really bad taste in my mouth. I can even see doing it for God as more of a better excuse, but doing it also to get rewards in heaven is disgusting to me.

Nicole: Yeah, it's disgusting to do something because of what you're going to get. That's selfish, and love is not supposed to be selfish, right? And respect is not supposed to be selfish. Like, you're supposed to give those things freely to people who even don't deserve them. So for him to be like, "Oh yeah, and by the way, ch-ching," literally writing "ch-ching" in there, just was the worst part of the book for me.

John: Yeah, and again, we're not trying to knock anyone's religion. If you're Christian, we're not trying to criticize your religion, but we're just saying that even if you completely subscribe to Christianity, the Bible, that's great. I'm glad for you, but do things for the right motive.

Nicole: Yeah, it's... I think if you're a Christian and you want to obey God, you want to obey the scripture, you want to make God happy, that's great. And you do want to have rewards in heaven for, you know, but do this because you're going to get something out, don't let this be like your motivation. If you're going to truly love someone and truly respect someone, find it in your heart to actually do it fully, not because of some other reason, because no one wants to be in that position where it's not... it's fake. You're doing it for a reason outside of them.

John: Exactly. Yeah, I mean, I'm not trying to hate on anybody's thing, but I also feel like God would not want you to do something for the reward you're going to get. That doesn't seem like a godly thing to me.

Nicole: Well, even Jesus said at some point, he had said that the person who fasts and puts money into the offering and they make a show of it, they already got their reward. That's what he says. So even the Bible says it. It's like if you're doing it for another purpose than actually the charity of your heart, not good.

John: Right, exactly. Yeah, so I didn't particularly care for that part. And then, let's see, there was the concept of the chairs. I marked those in there.

Nicole: So I thought this was good as well. And this, you may have heard of this before, but there's some acronyms that I think are useful to remember for what makes a woman feel loved and what makes a man feel respected. And I should have them memorized at this point. It's on the bookmark. One's couple principle.

John: Okay, so couple is C-O-U-P-E, if you can't spell. But it's an acronym to show the best way to show respect... no, love to a woman.

Nicole: Oh yeah, you're right. Love to a woman. It says the best way to show respect to a wife. That's... we...

John: As a commentary on the best way to show respect to a wife. I wonder if that's a typo.

Nicole: Well, like I said in the beginning, love is respect and respect is love. The best way to respect or honor your wife is through... Okay, so the acronym is closeness, openness, understanding, peacemaking, loyalty, and esteem, which makes a lot of sense.

John: Right.

Nicole: I think most women would agree with that. And I mean, we don't have really time to go into all the details, but closeness is basically being close, like emotionally close, spending time with each other too.

John: And openness is sharing your feelings.

Nicole: Right.

John: Understanding is giving the benefit of the doubt and being empathetic.

Nicole: Right. Peacemaking is... I don't know how to describe the peacemaking part. I guess like that a man wants to fix the problems in your relationship. He doesn't just sweep it under the rug.

John: And loyalty, I think that goes without saying.

Nicole: Loyalty and esteem, which is an important one because a lot of times, men are motivated by, "What are you, lazy bastard? Get up there and do 10 more push-ups." But women want to be esteemed. They want to be made to feel lifted up.

John: Uh, not that a man wants a woman to tell him to do 10 more push-ups because he's a lazy fat... The next bookmark part has chairs. Let me see here.

Nicole: Okay, you dog-eared this one.

John: Yeah, I'm just watching you scroll through after I already marked... I thought they were together. Alright, so, and then the chairs one for men.

Nicole: Right, so how women show respect to men.

John: Yeah, is Conquest, Hierarchy, Authority, Insight, Relationship, and Sexuality. You knew that.

Nicole: And Conquest does not mean the sexual conquest. It means to appreciate his...

John: Like, exactly. Because men want to say, "Look what I brought home."

John: Done right, hierarchy meaning that he's the authority. The authority, that's why I stumbled on that one, was the hierarchy of under it is kind of related because it's the idea that the man is the head of the house, that he represents that there is... well, he actually did describe it well in the book, and I'm going to maybe butcher it, but it was how he described it was that, yes, a man is above a woman, but he fights for the honor of the woman like he's going first because he is protecting his woman, and he is, you know, sacrificing himself almost first to protect her.

Nicole: Exactly, yeah.

John: So that's how he... again, that's not exactly how he described it, but that's what he emphasized, why the hierarchy, which I know religiously it's God, man, woman, child, or something along those lines, but the way he described it is that the man comes first because he will sacrifice himself for his wife and his children if necessary, and that's why he's the first in line after God. And that's where, like, I have that analogy I always use, the captain of the ship analogy. The captain goes down with the ship, right? He's the one to the outside world, he is the unit, he's the outward facing. To in the internal, obviously, they're communicating, they're working together, but he presents the face to the outside world. The authority, which is obviously that he has authority in his life, right? So that in his family and his marriage, he's the one she looks up to, she listens to ultimately, he has the final decision, and she respects that authority. Insight, this one is that he has wise counsel, and she comes to him and says, "Hey, could you help me with this problem? Hey, you're smart, you're wise, give me your counsel on this thing." Relationship, this one is like the shoulder-to-shoulder buddy, like she plays video games with him, or she does some kind of, or even he described it as like, "Watch me while I work on something, just be in the room, just like give me company," you know? Like the closeness is of like the woman's side, right? Like having that companionship, that partner, 'cause I think even when he says the relationship, it's like the best friend, the person you go to, sort of foundation. And then the final one is the sexuality, which, I mean, it's pretty obvious with that. But one thing, though, that I did actually disagree, we talked about this in this book as well, is that he tends to paint sexuality as something that is a favor to men, which is a very narrow-sighted view of it. It's, and it also, I think it's destructive to the relationship if it's like a chore or just something that you do. Actually, unfortunately, a lot of books, even the surrendered wife one, is very much like, "Just do it if he wants to do it," you know? Like they don't give a woman a way to connect with her husband, so it's not just a "just do it when you don't want to do it," and that...

Nicole: Yeah, and that's a common thing, I think, is that, well, there's two pieces to this. One is that, hey, if you marry someone, both men and woman, you're obligated to have sex with them on a regular basis because you want them to be exclusive with you. You either have to open up the marriage, which is a horrible idea, you know, divorce them, or you need to meet their sexual needs, right? That, I think, that's on both sides. And I've heard women complain about it and men complain about it. But at the same time, there's this conflict of, well, should you have sex when you don't want to just to please someone? And actually, the book that really actually addressed it is "Why Women Have Sex," because I was listening to that when I was doing some research for one of my videos, and she was talking about in the book, and actually, I think there's this book on seduction I read too that also has it, the same thing, is that like, instead of thinking, "Okay, I need to do this just because I owe it or I want my partner to be happy even though I'm not in the mood," get yourself in the mood, which you can do, right? Like you can help yourself get into the mood or be receptive to being seduced or to being put into the mood, as opposed to thinking of as a chore or something that you have to do because you don't want it to ever become that. And that's the thing, is like, if you, if it's like an obligation, then it's going to become mature. But so, but can you do things that facilitate you becoming more so in the mood? So I just wanted to make that point because that also was a little bit, like, you know, in the book, because it's, it just, it makes it feel like, and no one wants to feel like they're being done a favor. Because look, the woman should also be appreciating the sex as the man. It shouldn't be a one-way thing. And culturally, a lot of times it is where it's like, "Oh, she's doing a favor for him by having sex with him." First of all, guys, that's not a good way to look at your... like, you shouldn't be thinking about things like that, right? You should be thinking, "I'm doing her..." No, no, you shouldn't think it that way either. They should be trying, like, doing that, but you should be so good, or you know, that she feels like you're doing her a favor. You know what I'm saying? It's like, but it shouldn't even be for anyone a favor. It should just be like, you both want to, and want each other. And as soon as you start thinking of as, "Oh, I'm doing this a favor," in a sexual way, it creates big problems, though.

Nicole: Yeah, that's true. There was one other thing that I just wanted to bring up, that in this book, a lot of the women had been cheated on, and he's still saying to give him unconditional respect and love. And personally, I understand why you would lose respect for a man that's cheated on you, right? And, you know, more power to people, and I've said this before, who can gain that trust and respect back and stay with the person that has cheated on them. But also, and I know from a religious standpoint, divorce is like, you want to stay as far away from possible, but I do want to say, as a woman reading this, that if you have been cheated on, you don't have to continue to stay in the relationship. I'm not saying be disrespectful back, but that's a very disrespectful thing that a man can do to a woman, and an unloving thing a man can do to a woman. Yeah, and a lot of these women in here that had that story are still continuing to try to be with the man who did that to them, and supposedly it's working out for them, but I also don't want women to feel like they have to continue to be respectful and loving to somebody that did something so unloving and disrespectful to them because that is a breach in your marital vows, right?

John: Yeah, like, and that's why too, in the couples, he puts loyalty because men are typically the ones who go astray and have affairs, and, you know, in the last episode, we just...

John: We talked about why that happens a lot of the time, so you should go watch that one too. But I just wanted to add in there that if you read this book, especially as a woman, and you're reading it and you've been cheated on by your husband or something, try this if that's what you want. If you are choosing to stay in that relationship, this is a good way to try to get that dynamic back. However, you don't have to stay, right? Because that person broke that trust and disrespected you and did an unloving thing to you to begin with. Because a lot of people stay in stuff just because it's a religious thing, right? Because it's a commitment, and they are going to still go through with their commitment. But a lot of those people don't realize that if your partner breaks the commitment, yeah, and in other ways too, besides being unfaithful, you do not have to continue that commitment. And a lot of times, you shouldn't because they just prove to you that they can't commit to what they vowed to you. Now, if you want to work through it and you feel like it's worth working through, I'm not saying don't do that. But I'm saying don't feel like you have to uphold your commitment that you made when someone else broke it to begin with. If you feel like you cannot respect this person anymore because of what they did to you, and the love has changed, and the relationship dynamic has changed, and you don't think it can be repaired, it is fine to separate, yeah, and in those instances. But it has to be an instance like that, an affair or abuse or something like that. Otherwise, you should be upholding your commitment to the vows that you made. And a lot of people today don't, like, they just, it doesn't mean anything, yeah, yeah. They just decide that they're growing apart and instead of really trying as hard as they can, they divorce, which I don't think is right. But if it's abuse, physical, mental, emotional, or infidelity, in my mind, those are grounds for whatever time, whatever you need to get out of that situation, yeah, is acceptable. Like, like I said, because that person has broken their vows to you, so you do not have to uphold yours to them. And we talked about this before too, which is, it's kind of weird to say this, but if you think about it, it does make sense, which is that the people that work through the infidelities, it's actually less severe, the infidelity, if the relationship's bad than if it's good. Because if you're in this cycle and you're both treating each other poorly and then someone has an affair, you're much more likely to be able to work through that and fix everything than if everything's going good and someone has an affair. It actually is a lot more of a betrayal, right? Because it was unexpected because there's, you know. So just, you know, for what that's worth, I think that that's worth saying. But I agree as well, it's like you can't just be like, okay, I'm just going to stick to this thing. I'm was going to ride this horse because this is the horse that I chose, yeah. I mean, divorce is, believe me, divorce is probably the worst thing that you'll go through in your life, so you should avoid it. It affects children, affects everyone in the, so you should avoid it at all costs. But at the same time, there are circumstances where that's going to be the best right option. If you can save it, save it. And then again, that's the same thing we talked about with this book too, is it's like, you know, some people, it seems like maybe they shouldn't be together, especially some of the stories in this book. There was like some stuff where it was like, what? This is what you think about your spouse? And, you know, why are you with them, right? And look, if you've been together for 10, 15 years and you got a lot of tooth decay, all your teeth are gonna fall out, you should try to fix that, like put a real effort into it. And if you can't, then okay. But are you doing the thing that you can? And that's the question.

Nicole: I was going to say, maybe to round this out, yeah, because I think it's beneficial to talk about what timeline do you think people should put effort into before they make a decision like that?

John: Well, I tell guys that I coach, okay, and I didn't get this originally from me. I got it from Tony Robbins actually because I saw him say this, and it made a lot of sense to me, right? Is, look, for three months, you're going to put your needs aside completely, and you're just going to serve the other person. So if you're a man, you're just going to unconditionally love this disrespectful wench, you know what I mean? Like, you're just going to unconditionally love her. You're just going to, no matter what, no matter what she says, no matter what kind of hateful things that she says, you're just going to show her just sincere from your heart love. You're going to put out, you're not going to worry about what she's doing and getting your needs met for three months, right? And if at the end of that time, they're not making any effort to reciprocate, right? Then you can walk away knowing that you did everything that you could do.

Nicole: Do you think women's the same timeline?

John: Yeah, same timeline, same thing. You start treating him with absolute respect. You, like a person, will see that change. And what I tell guys all the time too is when you do this, what's going to happen, okay, is because I tell guys this, you start treating her with unconditional love, you start romancing her, you know, treating her, being empathetic to her emotions, and validating her emotions, she's going to react very badly. Why? Because she thinks it's a trap or something. She's like, what? What? Well, two things. One is she's like, is this for real? Or she wants to see if it's real, so she's testing you. But then number two, when she realizes it is for real, all that, but you haven't done this the whole time, yes, it's going to come out, and she's going to be like, you could have done this. Like, she's going to think that in her head. She's going to think, what an asshole, like, why did you treat me so badly for so long? Like, all that stuff, and now she's going to be in a safe space to express her emotions. So all that stuff, pent up, it's going to come out. So you got to ride it all the way through. Don't get defensive and invalidate her feelings when all that comes out too. Well, and same with women too, like, allow him to test the waters. Because again, in that Surrendered Wife book, she says that he'll be like, what's happening? And he might try to be like, oh, well, take these responsibilities back, like, take control back. I'm fine with it, but you can't give into that. So you do have to go through that period, yeah, where things are going to be like shaken up, and like, what's happening? And there might be some resistance. But I think 3 months is a very reasonable amount of time to totally put yourself aside and see if that heals your relationship.

John: Yeah, it won't kill you to put your needs aside completely for three months, no, it.

Nicole: It will give you clarity, and then, if you walk away, you can feel good about it, right? You won't have to second guess; you tried everything. So, for our last segment of what went on this week, I guess there's no real tiffs besides what we talked about before. But yesterday, I talked to you about some things that you did. I knew you didn't mean to do that made me feel a certain type of way. When I brought it up, I made sure to mention that it was my feelings about it and not, you know, like I know that your intention was not to do anything bad or harm or anything like that. But I just wanted to be able to communicate to you how I was feeling.

Nicole: And that it bothered me, and you just handled it really well, especially after what we talked about in the last episode that happened like, you know, a week ago, which wasn't handled the best way. You did a very good job of having a conversation with me and not getting defensive and not being like, "Hurt me that you're hurt," sort of thing. So yeah, it was a good thing. It was a way that you showed me that you apply the things that we talk about, which I already know. I already know that you do that, but yeah, good. Well, yeah, I think that that was good. So, and like I said, it takes time, you know, and I'm sure we'll make missteps, but we'll make less of them, right? And we have more grace for each other when we do, right?

Nicole: Exactly. Alright, well, leave a review, guys. Leave a review on iTunes, whatever you want, or Spotify. Do they have a review area? I think they do. I think they do. Google, yeah, I don't know. We don't have a Google page. Maybe we should make a Google page.

Nicole: So, alright, that's it. You know, read the book if you like. I said, just know that it's high. The concept is good. Yeah, and if you're one of the people, I personally like to read stuff even if I don't agree 100% with it, or like, I'm not super religious, but it was still an interesting insight to read. Yeah, and yeah, so give it a try. Alright, see you next time we find our way.